USADA files doping charges against Lance

tremayne

Rundfahrt wrote:

Fine, show me articles where the focus is not 100% on Armstrong. Where the leaks have been talking about info on the others. I have followed this for a while and have seen very little of it focused on anyone else. The info the USADA wanted to use was from the grand jury examinations in the federal case which was all about Armstrong...unless they have secretly brought people in.

As I have said earlier this is all about getting the biggest fish possible, even if it means ignoring clear cut cases. Just like what they did when they went after Landis. The USADA wants funding and recognition first and clean sport second. That's been proven over and over. Hell, the way the appeal process is set up insures they win every time.

I genuinely think you are missing the point (deliberately or otherwise). The entirety of 'stuff' that is out there is media generated. The media control the content on the basis of what they think the public might be interested in.

Public (public - not hard core cyclists who frequent forums) are simply not interested in people like Bruyneel, even less a Doctor called Ferrari. For the bulk of the public - this is simply not a story.

Armstrong however, different story. The media know there is huge interest. Christ, even this thread is all about Lance and very little about his co-accused. Even we, as the most interested - are hardly talking about anything but Lance. Sadly - he is the story.

However - none of the above is USDA's making or doing. Its possible thay have no more interest in Lance than the other four. Just a thought!

tremayne

Oh - and where's BB when we need him most?

bompington

tremayne wrote:

Oh - and where's BB when we need him most?

iainf72

tremayne wrote:

Oh - and where's BB when we need him most?

I can post some tired articles lifted from somewhere else, if that will help?

disgruntledgoat

iainf72 wrote:

tremayne wrote:

Oh - and where's BB when we need him most?

I can post some tired articles lifted from somewhere else, if that will help?

I demand a graph.

And some baseless accusations of facism.

iainf72

How about something informative from one of the Witchfinder Generals?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/ ... s_227833/2

tremayne

iainf72 wrote:

tremayne wrote:

Oh - and where's BB when we need him most?

I can post some tired articles lifted from somewhere else, if that will help?

Points taken. However, what I was really meaning was - the best way to fight blinkered opinion, oblivous to reasoned argument, or even (shock horror - facts or lack of facts) is to perhaps fight 'like with like' - hence my call for BB !!

calvjones

iainf72 wrote:

How about something informative from one of the Witchfinder Generals?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/ ... s_227833/2

Gosh, he writes very well doesn't he?

nic_77

coriordan wrote:

Have you stopped beating your wife?

He's not denying it.

Pross

Is there some kind of disorder where an internet poster tranfers all the traits his own posts display onto someone else and then has a go at them about it? If so we seem to have numerous serious examples of it on here!

Even if a deal has been done so what? Exactly the same thing happens in criminal case - admit guilt, drop those who refuse to admit guilt in the s**t with you and get let off lightly because of all the cost, hassle and risk of no-one getting convicted. Maybe Lance could go to the USADA and agree to spill everything he knows in return for keeping his results? There could be some real dirt if he decided to speak going way beyond the riders cheating!

josame

edited

MrTapir

Pross wrote:

Is there some kind of disorder where an internet poster tranfers all the traits his own posts display onto someone else and then has a go at them about it? If so we seem to have numerous serious examples of it on here!

Even if a deal has been done so what? Exactly the same thing happens in criminal case - admit guilt, drop those who refuse to admit guilt in the s**t with you and get let off lightly because of all the cost, hassle and risk of no-one getting convicted. Maybe Lance could go to the USADA and agree to spill everything he knows in return for keeping his results? There could be some real dirt if he decided to speak going way beyond the riders cheating!

Might you be talking about projection?

MrTapir

calvjones wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

How about something informative from one of the Witchfinder Generals?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/ ... s_227833/2

Gosh, he writes very well doesn't he?

Yes, very lucidly. Its interesting what he says about how much confidence they must have in the blood evidence, USADA must be very sure that they not only have enough evidence but they can win the case against The Conspiracy lot.

Rundfahrt

RoadPainter wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

RoadPainter wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

RoadPainter wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

sherer wrote:

so basically we can assume this was a leaked story from the LA camp to try to find out who has testified against him.

As others have said we still need to wait for something a bit more contrete

I think it has been put out by the LA camp, but more as part of a PR campaign. This whole 6 month ban thing fits right into the witch-hunt narrative. He probably knows who has testified against him, or at least, would have a fairly good short list of people.

It fits perfectly. It's pretty hard to look at this and not wonder why, if they are trying to clean up the sport, they are focusing so much on one retired rider while cutting easy deals with current riders.

It's like when Virgin Atlantic got let off price fixing with BA because they reported it.

If you don't give immunity / reduced penalties to those who talk, no-one will ever talk. Omerta, right?

Interesting how many brand new posters are chiming in today.

I understand why to give immunity, but what actually backs up their insistence on trying to clean up cycling? Focusing on letting current riders off easy in order to get a retired guy or going hard after current athletes, managers/DS and team doctors?

Surely (if true) it's just showing leniency to those who finally confess? I would argue that going after the team managers, DSs and doctors is more valuable than getting one rider.

You can ban riders all you want, but if you don't stop those that run the programs, the next riders will still do it.

Yet they are going after one retired rider hardest.

Your point about it all being about Armstrong is incorrect. In the media it's all about Armstrong. The media and USADA are not the same person.

I love when people make assumptions or simply make things up. Nothing the USADA has actually done or is alleged to have done has been anything less then Armstrong being the main focus. Stick to the info that is out there.

I think getting Armstrong will send a clear strong message to all riders of "even if you get away with it now, you'll be got later". But getting Ferrari, Bruyneel etc is where the big win is. Destroy the doping structures that have resisted change in the sport.

Wouldn't a stronger message be one that says you won't get away with doping during your career, rather then after? Has it made any difference in the life of Riis? Still has his Tour title, has his team, can get the best riders. Your preferred strategy didn't work in that case.

Getting the doctors and management is the real key, as I said earlier, but the USADA prefers to go after the big fish. If the real focus were the doctors and management they would be working with their home ADA's to get them.

BTW I'm not a new poster, just a new username (couldn't change my display name and didn't like old one - FlipFlopper). I like the way you attack the posters not what they're saying, discrediting by association - a little bit of Armstrong right there!

I go after whatever should be gone after, if you feel the need to whinge about, so be it, but you are simply trying to attack me...very cyclingnews Clinic gang tactics!

I'm glad we agree that going after the doctors etc is the best way to fight doping.

You just figured that out?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought USADA were going after Armstrong, Bruyneel, Celaya, del Moral, Ferrari, Marti. Oh look, I've named Armstrong first - it must all be about him!

Smart ass responses do nothing for your argument but make it look weak because it looks like you are simply avoiding giving real responses to my points.

What's the benefit of sharing with other ADAs now? Given not all ADAs are actually that AD, sharing evidence now could have an adverse impact. Surely they're duty-bound to enforce whatever penalties USADA apply.

The benefit is pretty obvious...if you are going after all of the people listed and not just focusing on one. Putting a case together with the home ADA's of the people named helps to ensure that you have all of the facts and can pursue anyone who deserves it. It's pretty simple really.

One thing I don't understand: Would you let Armstrong off? If not, why do you seem to have such a problem with him being investigated?

Why is it that guys like you put words into people mouths? That seems to be the m.o. with the core group on various forums (all the same people) who are obsessed with getting Armstrong...put words into the mouths of people who have don't condemn Armstrong as the most evil person ever to ride a bike. Nowhere did I say Armstrong should be let off or that I have a problem with him being investigated.

If you want to have a discussion then stick to what people actually say and have the balls to respond to what is said, instead of making things up and avoiding things that don't suit your agenda.

Thanks.

Rundfahrt

Tremayne- Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you start talking about "blinkered opinions."

Jez mon- You seriously can't think of another doping investigation that involved multiple ADA's?!?!?! Wow.

richard wants a baum

What words did he put in your mouth ? i can't see anything there that wasnt responding to points you have made?

andyp

@Rundfahrt - please do everyone a favour and just quote the post you're responding too, rather than half the freaking thread!

Rundfahrt

Richard- I'll give one example. Please show me where I said Armstrong should b let off?

Andyp- I wonder why you chose to address me about this instead of the number of other who do it. No matter.

iainf72

My irony-meter just exploded

http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/statu ... 3164831745

I'd respond but he's still blocking me.

richard wants a baum

Rundfahrt wrote:

Richard- I'll give one example. Please show me where I said Armstrong should b let off?

Andyp- I wonder why you chose to address me about this instead of the number of other who do it. No matter.

I believe he asked you if you believed he should be let off, i don't believe he said you did. Happy to be proven wrong ?

Jez mon

Rundfahrt wrote:

Tremayne- Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you start talking about "blinkered opinions."

Jez mon- You seriously can't think of another doping investigation that involved multiple ADA's?!?!?! Wow.

Why not provide an example...

There's no way to know one way or the other, but I should imagine USADA have contacted any relevant ADAs where they feel it would be beneficial to the investigation.

dennisn

FWIW I keep hearing the words "witch hunt" on this topic. Somehow I doubt that USADA is out there to do this, although the possiblity does exist. I'm thinking that after going through almost 70 pages of all this that the "witch hunters" are you. It's a good thing all of you are not together in a "mob" and deciding anyones fate. Sounds like at the very least you would be burning books and quite possibly people too. Thank God this is only the Internet and you're all too lazy to band together to actually accomplish your desires for "justice".

Pross

iainf72 wrote:

My irony-meter just exploded

http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/statu ... 3164831745

I'd respond but he's still blocking me.

My irony meter blew up after reading some recent posts by Mr Round Trip.

richard wants a baum

Dennis you've never meet us how could you possibly know this :shock:

Jez mon

Odd that he's following the story as closely as he is, after all, only a few days ago he tweeted...

Lance wrote:

I refuse to be distracted by @usantidoping's antics. It's 2012, I'm gonna continue to lead @LIVESTRONG, raise my 5 kids, and stay fit!

Rundfahrt

Richard-Asking the question quite clearly implies that I have said something to that end...which I have not. I have also posted a number of other items in this thread that are words being put in my mouth.

Jez mon- I get it, you don't know of any, but are an expert on doping investigations.

dennisn

richard wants a baum wrote:

Dennis you've never meet us how could you possibly know this :shock:

I don't "know this". It's just a feeling I get in reading all the posts. Bunch of people obcessed with one person, this person has done nothing but wrong his entire life and you can prove it, a whole lot of hatred thrown in on top of that, sprinkle in a few people who want his head on a stake, and I do believe that if you all got together in a "mob" that you might try and take justice into your own hands. Is that so hard to picture? Happens a whole lot more than people think.

Rundfahrt

dennisn wrote:

richard wants a baum wrote:

Dennis you've never meet us how could you possibly know this :shock:

I don't "know this". It's just a feeling I get in reading all the posts. Bunch of people obcessed with one person, this person has done nothing but wrong his entire life and you can prove it, a whole lot of hatred thrown in on top of that, sprinkle in a few people who want his head on a stake, and I do believe that if you all got together in a "mob" that you might try and take justice into your own hands. Is that so hard to picture? Happens a whole lot more than people think.

This place is pretty good, head over to the cyclingnews forum, clinic section if you want to see it at its forum extreme.

disgruntledgoat

dennisn wrote:

richard wants a baum wrote:

Dennis you've never meet us how could you possibly know this :shock:

I don't "know this". It's just a feeling I get in reading all the posts. Bunch of people obcessed with one person, this person has done nothing but wrong his entire life and you can prove it, a whole lot of hatred thrown in on top of that, sprinkle in a few people who want his head on a stake, and I do believe that if you all got together in a "mob" that you might try and take justice into your own hands. Is that so hard to picture? Happens a whole lot more than people think.

I'm sure if you sat down and had a beer with the mob, you'd change your mind.

iainf72

dennisn wrote:

richard wants a baum wrote:

Dennis you've never meet us how could you possibly know this :shock:

I don't "know this". It's just a feeling I get in reading all the posts. Bunch of people obcessed with one person, this person has done nothing but wrong his entire life and you can prove it, a whole lot of hatred thrown in on top of that, sprinkle in a few people who want his head on a stake, and I do believe that if you all got together in a "mob" that you might try and take justice into your own hands. Is that so hard to picture? Happens a whole lot more than people think.

You slay me Den. There's one person on this thread obsessed with one person. Pretty much everyone else posts on all the other threads and enjoys the racing.

Shouldn't you be out campaigning for Mitt or something?