USADA files doping charges against Lance

Yellow Peril

BikingBernie wrote:

No word on twitter from Wiggo yet. He seems to think that talking about farting after eating beetroot soup is of more importance...

Going by festinagirl's links, plenty of pros seem to want to maintain both the myth and the omerta...

I think they want to protect the value of their own stock. Scandals drive away sponsors and all that entails as a pro rider.

~In religious terms it is a bit like the Pope being up on a kiddyfiddling charge. all the other priests are going to deny it or say nothing until he is found guilty as numbers through the door and the coppers in the collection plate will surely fall.

Politicians are very good at this. When one of their team is in trouble they usually stay diplomatically silent and after the guilty party has resigned (as they inevitably do) they all come out of the woodwork saying how it was the right thing to do.

I bet the day this sticks lots of pro's will be heralding a new dawn for cycling, last of the old guard out, the cleanest it has ever been, a sorry chapter now behind them etc... we could write the press releases now and save all of the bother.

BikingBernie

Timoid. wrote:

You really are stupid. You made some jibe about him using Nazi-think to overcome cancer. I said that was out of order, which it is.

If you spent more time reading instead of insulting people, you would be aware that the concept of the 'Will to power' was in fact developed by Friedrich Nietzsche. He had been dead for 30-odd years by the time the Nazis got into power, so the concept can hardly be attributed to the Nazi party! :roll:

BikingBernie

Yellow Peril wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

No word on twitter from Wiggo yet. He seems to think that talking about farting after eating beetroot soup is of more importance...

Going by festinagirl's links, plenty of pros seem to want to maintain both the myth and the omerta...

I think they want to protect the value of their own stock. Scandals drive away sponsors and all that entails as a pro rider.

In religious terms it is a bit like the Pope being up on a kiddyfiddling charge. all the other priests are going to deny it or say nothing until he is found guilty as numbers through the door and the coppers in the collection plate will surely fall.

Politicians are very good at this. When one of their team is in trouble they usually stay diplomatically silent and after the guilty party has resigned (as they inevitably do) they all come out of the woodwork saying how it was the right thing to do.

I bet the day this sticks lots of pro's will be heralding a new dawn for cycling, last of the old guard out, the cleanest it has ever been, a sorry chapter now behind them etc... we could write the press releases now and save all of the bother.

I am glad that I wasn't the one comparing the morality of pro cyclists with that of politicians and the Catholic Church when protecting child abusers, and arguing that they are all hypocrites who are only concerned about their own pockets.

Your point is a valid one though!

ddraver

BikingBernie wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Geraint Thomas hopes Lance Armstrong clears name

"He has had numerous allegations thrown at him through the years but hopefully he hasn't done anything wrong. Hopefully people can let it go."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

Proof that some riders in Sky are on drugs, though not the performance enhancing kind.

Yeah I was a bit dissapointed by.that, but then.he's never Been much of a stirrer has he. Does well pit of playing the naive innocent...

BikingBernie

ddraver wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Geraint Thomas hopes Lance Armstrong clears name

"He has had numerous allegations thrown at him through the years but hopefully he hasn't done anything wrong. Hopefully people can let it go."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

Proof that some riders in Sky are on drugs, though not the performance enhancing kind.

Yeah I was a bit dissapointed by.that, but then.he's never Been much of a stirrer has he. Does well pit of playing the naive innocent...

Depressing isn't it? And I can't imagine why someone on a team dedicated to clean cycling should want to help in upholding the omerta. Surely seeing Armstrong busted at last would help to deter others from doping, and maybe see the whole of the UCI overhauled, to the benefit of those who do race cleanly. As if pro cyclists don't suffer enough without having to try to keep up with those on 'the hot sauce'!

Yellow Peril

I don't see this as omerta not in the traditional sense anyway. That omerta for me was a silence of shared guilt. This omerta is born out of agent's advice and the frequency with which statements can be taken out of context. No one will wade in until he is bang to rights for fear of a law suit.

mididoctors

BikingBernie wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

You really are stupid. You made some jibe about him using Nazi-think to overcome cancer. I said that was out of order, which it is.

If you spent more time reading instead of insulting people, you would be aware that the concept of the 'Will to power' was in fact developed by Friedrich Nietzsche. He had been dead for 30-odd years by the time the Nazis got into power, so the concept can hardly be attributed to the Nazi party! :roll:

You can be a pedantic twat thou.... dont worry we [nearly] all still love you really

BikingBernie

Yellow Peril wrote:

I don't see this as omerta not in the traditional sense anyway. That omerta for me was a silence of shared guilt. This omerta is born out of agent's advice and the frequency with which statements can be taken out of context. No one will wade in until he is bang to rights for fear of a law suit.

That can't be right, given the very large number of people who have already stated outright that Armstrong is a doper and worse. Was Walsh sued for From Lance to Landis? Has Armstrong tried to sue Hamilton? Or Landis? Or Michael Ashenden? etc. etc.

Whatever people's motivation might be for keeping silent, or even backing Armstrong, I think that the threat of being sued is very low on the list.

iainf72

I'm not sure why anyone expects cyclists to offer their opinion about it at all. Why should they?

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

I'm not sure why anyone expects cyclists to offer their opinion about it at all. Why should they?

If I was PT management I would just tell everyone to avoid it and give it "we wait for the outcome" speil

iainf72

mididoctors wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I'm not sure why anyone expects cyclists to offer their opinion about it at all. Why should they?

If I was PT management I would just tell everyone to avoid it and give it "we wait for the outcome" speil

Also, human nature would be to a) say nothing or b) say you hope it's not right and it gets sorted out. Anyone who wishes bad on someone else is a prick.

No_Ta_Doctor

Bruyneel statement

"I am dismayed that once again doping allegations have been raised against me, this time by USADA.

Following a Department of Justice Grand Jury investigation, no charges were filed against me. It cannot be right that I or anyone else can be pursued from court to court simply because our accusers do not like the decisions made along the way and so attempt to find a court which will get them the result they want.

I shall of course cooperate fully with the investigation, although I have no doubt the end result will be the same as all the other investigations over the years.

I have never participated in any doping activity and I am innocent of all charges."

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I'm not sure why anyone expects cyclists to offer their opinion about it at all. Why should they?

If I was PT management I would just tell everyone to avoid it and give it "we wait for the outcome" speil

Also, human nature would be to a) say nothing or b) say you hope it's not right and it gets sorted out. Anyone who wishes bad on someone else is a prick.

I think part of the problem is that as soon as they comment on a particular rider's case they'll become the go-to man for every case. Today it's some old bloke that gave up cycling for triathlons, tomorrow its a guy they rode on a team with once.

Besides which, until we find out who the ten riders are, and who might possibly get tainted (by their own admission, or by association) there are still a few riders out there in the peloton that might want you to keep quiet.

But mostly it's just PR telling them to shut up, and riders trying to be diplomatic if they do open their mouths.

iainf72

Some good stuff in Forbes

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalto ... -tells-us/?

TMR

Rick Chasey wrote:

Reckon Armstrong's started dumping burners yet?

No idea, but I bet he's called for a re-up

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

Some good stuff in Forbes

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalto ... -tells-us/?

not sold on that as yet.... one study is a bit "scientists tell us" "studies show"

sherer

No tA Doctor wrote:

Bruyneel statement

"I am dismayed that once again doping allegations have been raised against me, this time by USADA.

Following a Department of Justice Grand Jury investigation, no charges were filed against me. It cannot be right that I or anyone else can be pursued from court to court simply because our accusers do not like the decisions made along the way and so attempt to find a court which will get them the result they want.

I shall of course cooperate fully with the investigation, although I have no doubt the end result will be the same as all the other investigations over the years.

I have never participated in any doping activity and I am innocent of all charges."

This the trouble with the Grand Jury investigation. The case was stopped by someone higher up the chain just as charges were about to be filed and investigators were working on it 30 minutes before the announcement it was stopping was made public. Does that sound like a case that came to it's conclusion to you ?

Bruyneel is now claiming the case was fully finished and no charges were filed, LA used the same tactic. However much Fabiani was paid it needs to be doubled for all the help he's given LA here.

Gazzetta67

Nice "dodge the subject" by harmon and smith today on eurosport ....what news ??? ....but on the flipside when Kloeden was on he mentioned the "bad days" and had a go at Contador as well.....selective dissing at it's best eh.

Full Merckx

BikingBernie wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Hate the doper if you like, but don't knock a guy for overcoming a terrible disease.

He got lucky, had good medical treatment and survived. That is all.

Numerous studies have shown that a patients 'will to live' has no bearing on whether they do survive or not and even if Armstrong admits that he simply was lucky, plenty of others have portrayed his survival as a 'Triumph of the will' ( ). 'The man who beat cancer' and all that.

I see this emphasis on the role of 'will' in relation to cancer as being wholly unhelpful. For example, what attitude should be taken towards those who die of the disease? Imply that if they only had shown greater will to live they would have survived, so their demise is effectively their own fault? This narrative is so popular in the USA because fits in well with the American conception of 'meritocracy', where anyone who accrues great wealth must be held to be fully deserving of it and the 'failures' in life's rat race have only themselves to blame. However, both conceptions are a fraud.

Timoid. wrote:

And wtf is there is always some loser in every debate that brings up the Nazis or Hitler?

Just look at the photo! And at least three people drew the parallel before I commented on it!

Bernie you are talking PISH. there is ample evidence demonstrating positive attitudes affect outcomes for health related issues. The placebo response is one example as is the 14% likelihood of death on your birthday

Br J Cancer. 2006 Jul 17;95(2):146-52. Epub 2006 Jul 4.

BikingBernie

Full Merckx wrote:

Bernie you are talking PISH. there is ample evidence demonstrating positive attitudes affect outcomes for health related issues.

From an old post of mine:

Cancer survival not influenced by patient’s emotional status

A patient’s positive or negative emotional state has no direct or indirect effect on cancer survival or disease progression, according to a large scale new study. The research, to be published in the December issue of Cancer, found that emotional well-being was not an independent factor affecting the prognosis of head and neck cancers. The question of whether or not the mind, through psychological state and emotional status, has the ability to heal organic disease in the body, continues to be reviewed and tested in human health research. A large body of evidence strongly suggests that, for life-threatening diseases such as advanced cancer, it does not.

http://www.ecancermedicalscience.com/news-insider-news.asp?itemId=38

Optimism 'no bearing on cancer'

Cancer growth was not affected by mental outlook

The power of the mind has been overestimated when it comes to fighting cancer, US scientists say.

They said they found that a patient's positive or negative emotional state had no direct bearing on cancer survival or disease progression.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7052318.stm

Positive thinking 'cuts no ice with cancer'

Neither stressful events, nor a woman's 'fighting spirit' have any impact on the likelihood of developing or dying from breast cancer, say scientists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/475128.stm

Things Not to Say to Someone With Breast Cancer

In our rush to be supportive, it's all too easy to fall back on such encouraging and inspirational messages. But they can give breast cancer patients a deep-seated feeling of failure. "I call this the Lance Armstrong syndrome, this idea that if you have the right fighting spirit you can overcome disease," says Knajdl. "I admire Armstrong, and he's done great things to publicize cancer, but this idea that people can triumph over cancer with will power and an upbeat attitude is just crazy.

http://www.caring.com/articles/saying-we-can-beat-cancer

Smile or Die: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America by Barbara Ehrenreich

To write Nickel and Dimed, about how America's working poor live, Barbara Ehrenreich took low-paid work herself. For Smile or Die, her latest instalment on what's eating America, having cancer was the personal starting-point for an investigation into the ubiquitous notion that positive thinking is essential to health, wealth and wellbeing. Positivity and magical thinking may actually make illnesses worse, prompt us to seek wars we can't win, make us waste time and money "improving" ourselves when the real impediments to happiness lie far beyond our control, and make bankers believe they're benevolent demigods.

It's when writing about the cancer industry that she's at her most eloquent. When she got breast cancer, Ehrenreich found that not only did she have to confront a life-threatening illness but also a whole bunch of idiotic pink products, from proud cancer-defying sweatshirts and breast cancer candles, to a teddy bear with a breast-cancer ribbon sewn on its chest.

Cancer victims are expected to exude happiness – otherwise you're apparently exposing yourself, and fellow cancer patients who come into contact with you, to toxic negativity. You might also make your friends uncomfortable. Ehrenreich was told by a Panglossian oncology nurse that chemotherapy smoothes the skin and helps you lose weight! But all the denial and courageous cookie-baking distract patients from questioning their treatment or why they got cancer in the first place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/ja ... cy-ellmann

andyp

Timoid is right.

Full Merckx

LOL BBC as a source of info. If that's your knowledge base yer a knob.

Can I suggest http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed
Peer reviewed, evidence based practice has always been my preferred source of info rather than PISH from the BBC

Attitude and disposition: do they make a difference in cancer survival?
Creagan ET.
Source
Division of Medical Oncology, Mayo Clinic Rochester, MN 55905, USA.
Abstract
Psychosocial and spiritual factors influence a broad spectrum of medical and surgical disorders. The adverse effects of stress have been most clearly documented in cardiovascular disease. In cancer, unresolved questions include the following: Do emotional factors have a causal role in either initiating or promoting a malignant process, and can they possibly accelerate the dissemination of cancer? The literature, which consists of anecdotes, case-control methods, and randomized trials, is inconsistent and beset with major methodologic problems. Psychosocial interventions can be life enhancing in sharp contrast to the guilt-ridden programs of some alternative practitioners. A social support system and an element of spirituality and religion seem to be the most consistent predictors of quality of life and possible survival among patients with advanced malignant disease.

blazing_saddles

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Nice "dodge the subject" by harmon and smith today on eurosport ....what news ??? ....but on the flipside when Kloeden was on he mentioned the "bad days" and had a go at Contador as well.....selective dissing at it's best eh.

Since it is normal for Harmon's commentary to inform the viewer of any important or interesting news, nothing at all has happened in the cycling world, at all, during the past 3 days. :roll:

Seriously, I know Smithy is an ex of Lance, but nobody expects DH to wade into Armstrong as if he were Vino or Ricco, but to at least share his thoughts as to the current state of play.

By saying absolutely nothing, he just appears compromised.

mididoctors

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Nice "dodge the subject" by harmon and smith today on eurosport ....what news ??? ....but on the flipside when Kloeden was on he mentioned the "bad days" and had a go at Contador as well.....selective dissing at it's best eh.

Since it is normal for Harmon's commentary to inform the viewer of any important or interesting news, nothing at all has happened in the cycling world, at all, during the past 3 days. :roll:

Seriously, I know Smithy is an ex of Lance, but nobody expects DH to wade into Armstrong as if he were Vino or Ricco, but to at least share his thoughts as to the current state of play.

By saying absolutely nothing, he just appears compromised.

what does he say with smith sitting next to him.... at least wait until he is in the box with kelly and chat about it then...

kelly is quite good at talking around the subject...lets face it..it is massively embarrassing for the whole sport..

I think he should be honest and say "I don't know what to say about it".. because that is where this has all come too

Gazzetta67

mididoctors wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Nice "dodge the subject" by harmon and smith today on eurosport ....what news ??? ....but on the flipside when Kloeden was on he mentioned the "bad days" and had a go at Contador as well.....selective dissing at it's best eh.

Since it is normal for Harmon's commentary to inform the viewer of any important or interesting news, nothing at all has happened in the cycling world, at all, during the past 3 days. :roll:

Seriously, I know Smithy is an ex of Lance, but nobody expects DH to wade into Armstrong as if he were Vino or Ricco, but to at least share his thoughts as to the current state of play.

By saying absolutely nothing, he just appears compromised.

what does he say with smith sitting next to him.... at least wait until he is in the box with kelly and chat about it then...

kelly is quite good at talking around the subject...lets face it..it is massively embarrassing for the whole sport..

I think he should be honest and say "I don't know what to say about it".. because that is where this has all come too

All the more reason to ask him then after all he keeps telling us all "He rode with armstrong" who cares if it's awkward....yes it's embarrassing for the sport but do we dig our heads in the sand or have our own omerta and not talk about it.

mididoctors

Gazzetta67 wrote:

All the more reason to ask him then after all he keeps telling us all "He rode with armstrong" who cares if it's awkward....yes it's embarrassing for the sport but do we dig our heads in the sand or have our own omerta and not talk about it.

well I would like him to say something but can understand why he doesn't.... it will not last.... the pressure will build.

iainf72

The US Olympic spots make for interesting reading

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

The US Olympic spots make for interesting reading

pray continue

No_Ta_Doctor

Team here:

http://www.usacycling.org/usa-cycling-a ... c-team.htm

MEN’S ROAD CYCLING
Timmy Duggan (Boulder, Colo./Liquigas-Cannondale)
Tyler Farrar (Wentachee, Wash./Garmin-Barracuda)
Chris Horner (Bend, Ore./RadioShack-Nissan-Trek)
Taylor Phinney (Boulder, Colo./BMC Racing) – road race & time trial
Tejay Van Garderen (Tacoma, Wash./BMC Racing)

LeicesterLad

No tA Doctor wrote:

Team here:

http://www.usacycling.org/usa-cycling-a ... c-team.htm

MEN’S ROAD CYCLING
Timmy Duggan (Boulder, Colo./Liquigas-Cannondale)
Tyler Farrar (Wentachee, Wash./Garmin-Barracuda)
Chris Horner (Bend, Ore./RadioShack-Nissan-Trek)
Taylor Phinney (Boulder, Colo./BMC Racing) – road race & time trial
Tejay Van Garderen (Tacoma, Wash./BMC Racing)

hmmm, no Zabriskie.