Is it time to shut the UK borders

finchy

nathancom wrote:

It has been proved in study after study that immigration does not remove labour from the local population, it leads to economic growth. Anecdotal evidence such as the above is meaningless.

It wasn't meaningless to the people who lost their jobs.

nathancom wrote:

A lot of people are blaming immigrants for the stalling of the UK economy, but it might be a better idea to blame successive UK governments who have shrunk away from any economic planning towards complete market deregulation. Markets will chase the quickest buck, leading to offshoring of industrial processes, with almost no interest in the long term health of the UK economy. For this reason most of us have to work in service industries that create less new value within the economy, but instead simply facilitate economic transfer.

This has led to us failing to take advantage of several new technologies, such as renewable energy, with industrial production being set up on the continent instead even when we have made the technological breakthroughs in the first place.

But hey, its easier to blame people with brown skins and foreign accents, isn't it?

I'm not blaming foreigners (if I were in their situation I'd do exactly the same thing and truth be told I admire those who pack up to go and search for a better life thousands of miles away), I'm blaming employers when they simply want to exploit foreign labour, whether that be through low wages, dangerous working conditions, unpaid overtime or whatever.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

That's OK for skilled jobs, but what about unskilled ones? For example, I used to work for an employers who got rid of some long-standing, loyal employees in order to get cheap Asian labour in. Those men who were sacked will find it very difficult to find another job because they all had learning difficulties (the job was basically putting stuff into a washing machine and pressing the "on" button, but it gave them some sense of worth and a bit of financial independence). The new employees weren't more productive but they were cheaper.

If we are going to allow large-scale immigration in this country, we can't just let employers use the immigrants to undermine local workers.

Agreed.

Surely that's what minimum wages are there for?

nathancom

johnfinch wrote:

nathancom wrote:

It has been proved in study after study that immigration does not remove labour from the local population, it leads to economic growth. Anecdotal evidence such as the above is meaningless.

It wasn't meaningless to the people who lost their jobs.

It is only your assertion about a small group of people and about the reasons for them being replaced. I am not calling you a liar just stating that a handful of special needs employees is not sufficient basis to form conclusions about the issue of immigration compared to large scale scientific studies.

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

That's OK for skilled jobs, but what about unskilled ones? For example, I used to work for an employers who got rid of some long-standing, loyal employees in order to get cheap Asian labour in. Those men who were sacked will find it very difficult to find another job because they all had learning difficulties (the job was basically putting stuff into a washing machine and pressing the "on" button, but it gave them some sense of worth and a bit of financial independence). The new employees weren't more productive but they were cheaper.

If we are going to allow large-scale immigration in this country, we can't just let employers use the immigrants to undermine local workers.

Agreed.

Surely that's what minimum wages are there for?

Theoretically yes, but if workers are unable to enforce their rights there are plenty of unscrupulous employers out there to take advantage. However, as you say this is a problem we need to fix ourselves rather than blaming Johnny Foreigner.

finchy

nathancom wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

nathancom wrote:

It has been proved in study after study that immigration does not remove labour from the local population, it leads to economic growth. Anecdotal evidence such as the above is meaningless.

It wasn't meaningless to the people who lost their jobs.

It is only your assertion about a small group of people and about the reasons for them being replaced. I am not calling you a liar just stating that a handful of special needs employees is not sufficient basis to form conclusions about the issue of immigration compared to large scale scientific studies.

I wasn't claiming that - my sole point was that with the current situation of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of migrant workers coming into the UK, then this should not be used by management as a tool against UK workers. The anecdote is just an example.

My feelings about immigration are mixed - for example, I can see that the UK might be facing a demographic timebomb without so many newcomers, on the other hand I do wonder if our infrastructure will stand up to the extra population. As I have said earlier in the thread, I believe there are advantages and disadvantages to immigration but it is only with sensible government planning and policy that we can maximise the advantages and minimise the disadvantages.

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

Soni

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm being a little facetious.

The point is more about the competitiveness.

If we see a big bank go bust because their prices are too high as a result of their high salaries, we'd all say they should pay them less to reduce their costs.

Surely it's the same for others too?

If someone decides to live in the UK and will work for cheaper rates because they have lower living expectations, then surely that's their gain? They're being competitive. That's what the free market that the UK loves is all about.

Said immigrants who are apparently under-cutting local workers still have to live there, pay the local prices for accomodation, food, tax, the lot.

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

Their living expectations aren't lower, they are probably higher, the advantage they have though is there houses back home are a lot cheaper than ours are here!!

And what I don't think is right, not sure if its changed now, but I was in a takeaway some years ago and was talking to the lady about our first house purchase, a one bedroom house for 49k, she told me for that money she could buy a 5 bedroom house over looking the sea back home! I said I know what I will do, ill move out there and buy a house, she said oh no, English can't buy houses in my country, apparently you had to be Chinese......and that I don't think is fair, it should work both ways, if foreigners are allowed to purchase businesses and houses in our country then why is it not like that the other way around?

I was in Cyprus a few years ago in a Chinese and the restaurant was run by Chinese but owned by a Cypriot sitting at the till taking all the money, he employed all the Chinese staff, I.e cooks and waiters, but it was his business and didn't even trust them to take the money! However, I believe any nationality can buy houses and businesses in the UK?

If the above has changed then I stand corrected, however that was how things were at the time.

Soni

What employer wouldn't bite the hands off of immigration labour if you could sack your labour force on £20 per hour and employ the same skilled labour based on £5 per hour??

However, surely the opportunity shouldn't be there in the first place?

How is the above a good thing for the economy? The British workers will be unemployed or find it difficult to get another job of the same salary, whilst the immigrants will be earning the money and wiring it back home???

daviesee

Soni wrote:

How is the above a good thing for the economy? The British workers will be unemployed or find it difficult to get another job of the same salary, whilst the immigrants will be earning the money and wiring it back home???

What I want to know is how an immigrant can afford to live here on 5 pound/hour AND send half the money back home?
He/she either has a miserable existance here which would make you wonder why they bother. Or it simply doesn't happen.

Frank the tank

Soni wrote:

What employer wouldn't bite the hands off of immigration labour if you could sack your labour force on £20 per hour and employ the same skilled labour based on £5 per hour??

However, surely the opportunity shouldn't be there in the first place?

How is the above a good thing for the economy? The British workers will be unemployed or find it difficult to get another job of the same salary, whilst the immigrants will be earning the money and wiring it back home???

Alternatively, if you work in manufacturing or a call centre employers aren't adverse to sending the job overseas.

DF33

Just before the bust (06 and 07) I was called into a large luxury flat development near Chelsea Bridge to trouble shoot a job on 100 of the flats. This was on phase 2 of 5. Phase 1 was being handed over, 2 nearly finished, 3 started, 4 on foundations etc.

I was there a year before for a few weeks. I couldn't believe the difference. The site was roughly 80% UK workers then. Within 1 year the only UK workers on the site were some stonemasons, sparkies and Gas engineers due to the qualification element and the need for decent English language to be able to pass the exams to be UK registered. When I left 6 months later, it was only the same two trades of UK workers. All the rest were either non English speaking or poor English speakers from eastern block countries run by supervisors with a decent command of English. Some became my friends and still are, lovely people.
They worked for 30% less. They all were either building houses back home or saving to start. Only a few intended to settle here permanently and buy a house here.
All the displaced UK workers (some of 15 years with one company associated to us) were basically constructively dismissed over the 18 months to make way.
When I finished my second 6 month stint the result was the entire site below management and senior supervisor level had become around 90% ex eastern block within that timescale. This was repeated around London sites I am told as employers in construction reaped in the wages savings.

The displaced UK established workers I knew from there, struggled to find work after that, some lost their homes due to repossession whilst the companies they had worked for continued to construct and the site continued for 3 more years.

I witnessed this and the fallout.

It's not the people who are at fault, it's the system.

Ironically the Polish, Latvians, et al are fighting hard to keep Rumania out of the EU as they say the Rumanians will undercut them and put them out of work. And so the cycle continues.

nathancom

johnfinch wrote:

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

The studies are carried out over long periods of time, for example:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

finchy

nathancom wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

The studies are carried out over long periods of time, for example:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

that report wot you've linked to wrote:

The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay.

And this is the bit that will leave some people worried. If protecting your own livelihood means turning against immigrants then I can understand why people do it (although I think it's a pity people don't stand up to their bosses rather than taking out all out on the immigrants).

Earlier in the thread I was talking about people having legitimate concerns as opposed to coming out with a load of xenophobic crap about nasty ol' foreigners with their beady eyes on our little island. This is one of those legitimate concerns.

verylonglegs

johnfinch wrote:

nathancom wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

The studies are carried out over long periods of time, for example:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

that report wot you've linked to wrote:

The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay.

And this is the bit that will leave some people worried. If protecting your own livelihood means turning against immigrants then I can understand why people do it (although I think it's a pity people don't stand up to their bosses rather than taking out all out on the immigrants).

Earlier in the thread I was talking about people having legitimate concerns as opposed to coming out with a load of xenophobic crap about nasty ol' foreigners with their beady eyes on out little island. This is one of those legitimate concerns.

This is precisely what I was talking about earlier in the thread with well-educated liberals prefering to brand people at the bottom end of the wage scale racist because they complain about being squeezed rather than actually engaging with them. It's no good waving reports at them and telling them the economy benefits just because the middle-classes enjoy getting their house extensions done cheaper, they need more careful handling and understanding than that as it's precisely what has led to traditional Labour voters suddenly finding far-right parties appealing.

Jez mon

Without reading a bunch of studies, would I be correct in saying that fundamentally, when it comes to growth, immigration is brilliant? However, in the small print there can be issues for those on the bottom?

Would I also be correct in saying that economic growth taken on its own is a blunt measurement?

So would a fair overall conclusion be, governments need to be careful about immigration, that a complete open door policy (i.e. NOT the one we currently have) could do harm, but that closing our borders could leave the economy uncompetitive.

Fundamentally, Frank makes a good point, companies can and do move their factories abroad if the cost is too high. If the choice is high numbers of immigrants working in UK factories or no UK factories, aren't we better off with immigrants?

I think a mistake that a lot of pro immigration people make is to completely ignore any possible downsides, rather than trying to argue that they are outweighed by the benefits. Are there any? What are you meant to say to the working man/woman who is put under financial strain by immigrant labour? Man up? Start your own business? Don't worry, there will be a higher growth rate?

bontie

Has anyone ever considered the amount of money that gets taken out of the UK economy, by immigrants?Everyone always sing the praises of the contribution the immigrants make.

The losses in VAT alone must be a very scary amount.

A case in point : I am a professional working in the Southwest of the UK. I do not support any family in my country of birth, neither do I pay a mortgage or any bills. I have a few (small) investments which I still contribute to, as it makes no sense to stop doing so now. These amount to approximately 10% of my nett salary. If I were to spend that in the UK at least 1/5th would have gone back in the form of VAT (never mind the income tax payable by the vendor of my spending). I can assure you that most immigrants send a much larger chunk of their income to their home countries for the purposes mentioned above.

No wonder we cannot get this economy back on track...

Shutting the borders may be a bit extreme, but some reform is undoubtedly necessary.

finchy

Jez mon wrote:

I think a mistake that a lot of pro immigration people make is to completely ignore any possible downsides, rather than trying to argue that they are outweighed by the benefits.

You could reverse that and say the same about anti-immigration people. Both statements would be true. It's a very complex issue yet what we usually hear is:

Immigrants are brilliant. If it weren't for them our country would completely collapse.

vs.

Immigrants are rubbish. Our country's going down the toilet thanks to them and the PC brigade.

Jez mon

johnfinch wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

I think a mistake that a lot of pro immigration people make is to completely ignore any possible downsides, rather than trying to argue that they are outweighed by the benefits.

You could reverse that and say the same about anti-immigration people. Both statements would be true. It's a very complex issue yet what we usually hear is:

Immigrants are brilliant. If it weren't for them our country would completely collapse.

vs.

Immigrants are rubbish. Our country's going down the toilet thanks to them and the PC brigade.

Indeed. Generally though, the pro immigration side present themselves as more educated/whatever, so I feel it's reasonable to expect them to be more balanced.

DF33

To put in a nutshell.

How on earth can we balance;
A new immigrant from wherever outside the UK working in a coffee shop / bar / cleaning and paying tax on the basic wage (for ease of maths lets round to 20% of £6 per hour = £1.50 x 8 hours = £12 per day tax paid
whilst someone either born here or been here for years is paid housing benefit, council tax, dole money, costs us for jobseeking etc and is allowed to continue doing nothing, costing far more than the £12 per day tax on the new person in?

Or put another way, would any business struggling here in tough times send home a fair percentage of their fit healthy workers on full pay for a year for no reason and then employ others to take their place and pay them as well?
Because that is exactly what we have allowed to happen with our system.

SmellTheGlove

How do we feel about stripping developing countries of their talent - IT, medical, engineering etc - when all it does is bolster our already unrealistic demands for 'prosperity' at the expense of people maybe half a world away who need a leg up more than we do?
It makes me think, at any rate.

Soni

DF33 wrote:

Just before the bust (06 and 07) I was called into a large luxury flat development near Chelsea Bridge to trouble shoot a job on 100 of the flats. This was on phase 2 of 5. Phase 1 was being handed over, 2 nearly finished, 3 started, 4 on foundations etc.

I was there a year before for a few weeks. I couldn't believe the difference. The site was roughly 80% UK workers then. Within 1 year the only UK workers on the site were some stonemasons, sparkies and Gas engineers due to the qualification element and the need for decent English language to be able to pass the exams to be UK registered. When I left 6 months later, it was only the same two trades of UK workers. All the rest were either non English speaking or poor English speakers from eastern block countries run by supervisors with a decent command of English. Some became my friends and still are, lovely people.
They worked for 30% less. They all were either building houses back home or saving to start. Only a few intended to settle here permanently and buy a house here.
All the displaced UK workers (some of 15 years with one company associated to us) were basically constructively dismissed over the 18 months to make way.
When I finished my second 6 month stint the result was the entire site below management and senior supervisor level had become around 90% ex eastern block within that timescale. This was repeated around London sites I am told as employers in construction reaped in the wages savings.

The displaced UK established workers I knew from there, struggled to find work after that, some lost their homes due to repossession whilst the companies they had worked for continued to construct and the site continued for 3 more years.

I witnessed this and the fallout.

It's not the people who are at fault, it's the system.

Ironically the Polish, Latvians, et al are fighting hard to keep Rumania out of the EU as they say the Rumanians will undercut them and put them out of work. And so the cycle continues.

Thank you for your post, its not something you hear down the pub at all, it really does happen, maybe some of the members on this forum/thread haven't witnessed it as much due to their line of work or location, I also work in London like you......

DF33

I'm simply saying what I have witnessed, not hearesay.

I have also been on the receiving end as a 'foreigner' when I worked in France. They threatened to break our legs at one point and meant it, despite us being totally legal and speaking the lingo.
it is the same in every country, everyone is protectionist and nervous of outsiders.

The difference here is we give so much compared to other countries, let so many live for free and not work who are already here and we simply are going bankrupt as a country for it.

Soni

johnfinch wrote:

nathancom wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

The studies are carried out over long periods of time, for example:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

that report wot you've linked to wrote:

The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay.

And this is the bit that will leave some people worried. If protecting your own livelihood means turning against immigrants then I can understand why people do it (although I think it's a pity people don't stand up to their bosses rather than taking out all out on the immigrants).

Earlier in the thread I was talking about people having legitimate concerns as opposed to coming out with a load of xenophobic crap about nasty ol' foreigners with their beady eyes on our little island. This is one of those legitimate concerns.

Yes and i wonder who you were talking about there....:roll:

finchy

Soni wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

nathancom wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

The studies are carried out over long periods of time, for example:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

that report wot you've linked to wrote:

The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay.

And this is the bit that will leave some people worried. If protecting your own livelihood means turning against immigrants then I can understand why people do it (although I think it's a pity people don't stand up to their bosses rather than taking out all out on the immigrants).

Earlier in the thread I was talking about people having legitimate concerns as opposed to coming out with a load of xenophobic crap about nasty ol' foreigners with their beady eyes on our little island. This is one of those legitimate concerns.

Yes and i wonder who you were talking about there....:roll:

People in general - don't be so paranoid. I've heard the same thing so many times before, not just from you.

Soni

johnfinch wrote:

Soni wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

nathancom wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

By the way, in what economic conditions were these studies carried out? Did they study periods of recession or growth?

The studies are carried out over long periods of time, for example:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration

that report wot you've linked to wrote:

The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay.

And this is the bit that will leave some people worried. If protecting your own livelihood means turning against immigrants then I can understand why people do it (although I think it's a pity people don't stand up to their bosses rather than taking out all out on the immigrants).

Earlier in the thread I was talking about people having legitimate concerns as opposed to coming out with a load of xenophobic crap about nasty ol' foreigners with their beady eyes on our little island. This is one of those legitimate concerns.

Yes and i wonder who you were talking about there....:roll:

People in general - don't be so paranoid. I've heard the same thing so many times before, not just from you.

Ah, you sound like you love me , don't worry you haven't hurt me, i'm not easily offended

finchy

Soni wrote:

Ah, you sound like you love me , don't worry you haven't hurt me, i'm not easily offended

Believe it or not, I've got absolutely nothing against you. I just get very defensive when I hear all the old stories about what a wonderful, easy life all the immigrants have because I've seen it at first hand and believe me, they ain't true.

As you'll see from the thread, though, I do not think that it's a simple good vs. bad issue and I think that in many cases the government mishandles it.

Soni

johnfinch wrote:

Soni wrote:

Ah, you sound like you love me , don't worry you haven't hurt me, i'm not easily offended

Believe it or not, I've got absolutely nothing against you. I just get very defensive when I hear all the old stories about what a wonderful, easy life all the immigrants have because I've seen it at first hand and believe me, they ain't true.

As you'll see from the thread, though, I do not think that it's a simple good vs. bad issue and I think that in many cases the government mishandles it.

I agree that not all immigrants are the same and also I completely agree that its the government who are at fault, however I do have first hand experience of speaking with and knowing some immigrants personally and they are here for the money first and foremost and they do wire it back home and spent the bare minimal in this country to get by, they work all the hours in the day possible to get the job done and get back home as quickly as possible.

The other night I watched s recorded episode of the west London coroner documentary telling the sad tale of an 18 year old polish lad who got struck by a train, and they said they needed to ascertain whether it was suicide or accidental and said they had a huge no. of young polish lads taking there own lives due to coming to this country being sold the dream to support their families and realising its not what they were promised and they were taking their own lives, how sad.....

finchy

Soni wrote:

I agree that not all immigrants are the same and also I completely agree that its the government who are at fault, however I do have first hand experience of speaking with and knowing some immigrants personally and they are here for the money first and foremost and they do wire it back home and spent the bare minimal in this country to get by, they work all the hours in the day possible to get the job done and get back home as quickly as possible

I don't disagree that they are here mainly for the money. Let's face it, you wouldn't leave Hungary and come to the UK for the better weather. The exceptions being those who come to work and improve their English language skills, which are absolutely essential for getting a decent job in most of the ex-Warsaw Pact countries these days.

Soni wrote:

The other night I watched s recorded episode of the west London coroner documentary telling the sad tale of an 18 year old polish lad who got struck by a train, and they said they needed to ascertain whether it was suicide or accidental and said they had a huge no. of young polish lads taking there own lives due to coming to this country being sold the dream to support their families and realising its not what they were promised and they were taking their own lives, how sad.....

When I was teaching over in Eastern Europe, I always warned my students to be VERY careful regarding the myths about how much money they could earn while in the UK. They were drooling over wages of £6.50/hour without realising just how expensive life is over here - and they were university graduates.