Is it time to shut the UK borders

finchy

Soni wrote:

Cheers mate, i feel strongly about sticking up for your beliefs, things don't have to turn into racist accusations everytime somebody opposes immigration, however unfortunately a lot of time it does, and this deters people from speaking out, including our Government, and look where that leads to......

Nobody would accuse you of racism if you used arguments such as proto's above, rather than painting them as being lazy spongers who are just here for the welfare state.

Frank the tank

If the cure to all this nations ecconomic and social ills was as simple as close the borders, I can't help but think it would have already been done.

proto

I suspect some of those who oppose immigration would happily turn a blind eye to immigrants fom, say, South Africa, Austrlia or New Zealand. Now that would be racism ...............

Soni

team47b wrote:

Soni wrote:

De Sisti wrote:

Soni wrote:

Your content with being a puppet and having your strings pulled...........

You're content with being a puppet and having your strings pulled.....

(FTFY).

Not quite, you missed some dots off

Not quite, the missing 'some dots' are called an elipsis and consist of three dots, no more no less, used as an aposiopesis in speech and is available as a glyph.

So you see, you can't fix anything for anyone without possession of all the facts. We need to eradicate ignorance before trying to solve the more complex issues.

FTFY

I must be honest here, I have no idea what that meant, however it sounded great and you sound so well educated that you have convinced me that you are correct whatever it was you were talking about!!

Soni

johnfinch wrote:

Soni wrote:

Cheers mate, i feel strongly about sticking up for your beliefs, things don't have to turn into racist accusations everytime somebody opposes immigration, however unfortunately a lot of time it does, and this deters people from speaking out, including our Government, and look where that leads to......

Nobody would accuse you of racism if you used arguments such as proto's above, rather than painting them as being lazy spongers who are just here for the welfare state.

John, you need to reread my previous post.

1. I make mention that they are here for the benefits.
2. I make mention of the guy who said he's only working here for the money to take back home as he doesn't like our country.

Now, with the above points in mind, what part of what I have said is incorrect?

It doesn't matter if they are here for the money by working or the money from benefits, we've built this country up to what it is and now everybody from every corner of the globe want a piece of it, and it pisses me off because it will be affecting our children's future who in my opinion should have more opportunity than immigrants, and if you can't handle that then so.be it, but the majority of people think the same way if they are honest about it!

woodnut

:? I find some attitudes mystifying. When my kids grow up I'd like them to be able to go and live anywhere they fancied in the world and make their living there. Wouldn't you, and if not, why not? I wouldn't be happy if the so called "indigenous" people hated them just for wanting to live in "their" country.
What gives people the idea they have some right of ownership over the country they just happen to have been born in?

pottssteve

woodnut wrote:

:? I find some attitudes mystifying. When my kids grow up I'd like them to be able to go and live anywhere they fancied in the world and make their living there. Wouldn't you, and if not, why not? I wouldn't be happy if the so called "indigenous" people hated them just for wanting to live in "their" country.
What gives people the idea they have some right of ownership over the country they just happen to have been born in?

That's a very Socratic view and rather a pleasant idea. I think what gives people ownership and identity in part involves what investment they feel they, and their ancestors have made in the country, in financial terms (tax etc.) but also in less tangible aspects ("culture"), for example.

As an expat who left the UK several years ago I have lived, and worked, in several countries. In the non-EU countries I was expected to demonstrate gainful employment and the ability to support myself and my family financially either before, or shortly after arrival. In the EU I have to register with the authorities in order to obtain tax codes that allow access to medical assistance, insurance, car ownership etc. I don't feel that this is an infringement of my civil liberties because I chose to live in the country and therefore abide by the rules as, I'm sure, do many who arrive in the UK. I think what people are fed up with is the highly publicised accounts of those who arrive, either legally or illegally, or outstay their visas, commit crimes and/or fail to contribute to the system, and then claim such "rights" as the "right to family life" in order to avoid deportation. Add to this the fact that the UK is a small place with immigrants concentrated in the already crowded South East, and hostility can be expected.

Steve

daviesee

Soni wrote:

It doesn't matter if they are here for the money by working or the money from benefits, we've built this country up to what it is and now everybody from every corner of the globe want a piece of it, and it pisses me off because it will be affecting our children's future who in my opinion should have more opportunity than immigrants, and if you can't handle that then so.be it, but the majority of people think the same way if they are honest about it!

Trouble is that we built this Country up to what it is now on the strength of "The Empire".
ie Ruling a large percentage of the planet by force and on the backs of others.
Is it not fair if some of their descendants want to benefit from that as much as you?
Or is conquering foreign Countries fair enough?

finchy

Soni wrote:

John, you need to reread my previous post.

1. I make mention that they are here for the benefits.
2. I make mention of the guy who said he's only working here for the money to take back home as he doesn't like our country.

Now, with the above points in mind, what part of what I have said is incorrect?

It doesn't matter if they are here for the money by working or the money from benefits, we've built this country up to what it is and now everybody from every corner of the globe want a piece of it, and it pisses me off because it will be affecting our children's future who in my opinion should have more opportunity than immigrants, and if you can't handle that then so.be it, but the majority of people think the same way if they are honest about it!

Soni wrote:

the whole of Europe is attracted to and is travelling to (as we speak), to such a small area on the globe (the UK) like a magnet!

This is incorrect. You present the UK as being some sort of uniquely popular immigration magnet. It isn't. Just about every major developed economy in the world has a large immigrant population. Many other European nations have higher rates of immigration than the UK. If you want to argue that these immigration patterns are unacceptable, then it's your right to say so, but when you just make up "facts" to support your argument you're going to get pulled up on it.

Soni wrote:

Why? Because we are handing out paychecks and free homes to the immigrants and mugs like us British taxpayers are having to pick up the bill, do you enjoy working 3 months per year for nothing more but to pay the tax to fund this type of system?

This is also incorrect. As I have said before, Eastern European immigrants don't get free houses and can't get anything out of the system without paying in for 2 years first.

Soni wrote:

Our fathers/grandfathers/great grandfathers thought two world wars to protect our borders and country from what is happening right now and our Government have just opened the Border doors and are welcoming everybody with open arms!

This is incorrect. Anyone from the EU is able to come here freely, from other nations it is far more difficult. Those people who come as illegal immigrants AREN'T welcomed with open arms - that is why they have to risk their lives getting here and working here.

Soni wrote:

immigration has allowed foreigners to enter the country ..., ship the money back home, and then when they are done, return home and retire at 45/50 with their feet up on the sofa living a cushy little life

This is incorrect. I don't know how cheap you think life is in places like Poland, Slovakia and Czech Republic, but I can assure you that with the money they save in the UK, they can't afford to just go back home and retire at 45 or 50.

bagpusscp

With the declining birth rate and with an ageing population this country needs people to come and live and work here just to maintain the statu quo.Be careful what you wish for.As already said alot of people come and do the jobs that many here will simply not do.

Jez mon

Soni wrote:

Being a student i am assuming you have an element of intellect, therefore you realise that we could have all ended up speaking German and may not have had such great opportunities in life if it wasn't for the brave service men/woman who gave their lives for our country defending us against the threat of German occupation.

However, now we have mass immigration threatening our future, everybody from every corner of the globe want a piece of the UK, and its worrying to think that when i left school (not 'that' long ago :roll: 23 years ago) i could pretty much jump from one job to the next without any opposition. However, now we have xxx people chasing x job, and it makes me concerned for the future of my daughters when they get older and leave school to start work.

Of course, we could have spoken German etc, but we won the war, defeated an evil dictator and aren't currently ruled by Berlin.

We now have fairly high immigration. Amongst those immigrants, there are a few bad eggs and amongst the indigenous population, there is a media with outlets such as the Daily Mail. The media is only too happy to dig a few facts up about the bad eggs, throw in some emotive language and bang out a story.

As for the jobs, AFAIK, that's a far more complex issue, related to the world economy, it just isn't economical to do a lot of stuff in the first world these days, which means a lot of unskilled labour gets shipped abroad, plus we're currently in a recession.

EKIMIKE

Just to be clear, the EU surrounding free-movement rights is very clear cut. If you work, you get social assistance. If you don't work you don't get social assistance. I can give you the exact Article of the exact Directive if you want.

Residency is more complex with various factors coming into play. The general rule is 3 months free of any obligations. After that you have to start proving things such as you're not a burden to the state, you have medical cover, you can support yourself, you have a realistic chance/prospect of employment. Essentially, the EU's attitude to internal migration is if you work, go ahead. If not then you're getting nothing. And yes the European Convention on Human Rights can be invoked or Member State human rights legislation such as the 1998 Act in this country can. However the only cases i've seen of this being successful is if they have kids who have a rights to stay because they're born here or the other parents is from the host nation e.t.c. Pretty limited and not many examples exist.

Mad Roadie

proto wrote:

It's not about racism, I really couldn't care too much where the immigrants come from, the problem as I see it is that we have a small island with a much too large a population, exacerbated by a good percentage of that population choosing to live in the south east.

The pressure on housing, transport, water, education etc etc all seems to me to be a result of overpopulation. We are often told that we need a young dynamic workforce to protect our economic future, well in my opinion the benfeits are now outweighed by the costs. Time to do something about it and shut the borders.

agree - we do not have a British identity or standards any longer - they have been relaxed to the point of eradication by the PC brigade. Either its time to say enough is enough and turn the clocks back or leave to UK to sink in its LCD/ 'walk all over us please' future

EKIMIKE

I'm struggling to see how a war fought half a century ago to defeat an evil dictator has much relevance to immigration today? The dictator was defeated. End of. We won, with the help of the USA and Soviet Union and the French and all the colonial forces we drafted in to fight e.t.c. e.t.c. I think the prospect of speaking German wasn't the drive behind the brave, honourable men who fought for the cause - Fascism and Nazism and Genocidal Racism were far more scary than the language.

So apart from a tenuous analogy to a threat of invasion and language change, what are the serious, present threats and manifestations arising from immigration into this country?

And you can't copy any of this guys idea's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8

Note: I refuse to point the racist finger. I just want to hear legitimate reasons to shut the boarders...

Soni

Guys, there seem to be so many of you that can't see the problem with this mass immigration problem, and if that's really truly how you feel then let's see how you will feel in another decade when it gets even worse, and don't say I didn't warn you.

If you don't mind being shafted by an immigrant who gets your job because he has priced up a job cheaper than you because his 5 bedroom detached house in 5 acres of land back home is cheaper than the mortgage your paying per month for your 3 bedroom terraced propery with a 12 ft rear garden, then so be it, but I'm sure the vast majority of British people are pissed off with the situation we are now in and the competition there is for a job even working in McDonald's!

When I left school I went to McDonald's, sat down, had a chat with the manager and started the next day, you see if you can do that these days!

We are all entitled to our own opinions, and my opinion is shut the borders, end of, and no amount of persuation would ever change my opinion, even though severe damage has already been done, we can prevent it from getting any worse.

rick_chasey

Soni wrote:

If you don't mind being shafted by an immigrant who gets your job because he has priced up a job cheaper than you because his 5 bedroom detached house in 5 acres of land back home is cheaper than the mortgage your paying per month for your 3 bedroom terraced propery with a 12 ft rear garden, then so be it, but I'm sure the vast majority of British people are pissed off with the situation we are now in and the competition there is for a job even working in McDonald's!

If that's the case, you should move somewhere cheaper, surely?

It's true that a no-immigration at all policy would increase everyone's wage by restricting supply.

If labour was truly mobile, globally, there would be no geographical discrepencies between wages. Labour of course isn't.

It's not particularly efficient or productive though.

Everyone benefits if someone joins the country who is more productive and more efficient - with the exception of the person who can't compete - but that's the nature of capitalism isn't it?

daviesee

Here's a thought..........

Is the OP (bearfraser) creasing himself at all this nonsense?

Soni

Rick Chasey wrote:

Soni wrote:

If you don't mind being shafted by an immigrant who gets your job because he has priced up a job cheaper than you because his 5 bedroom detached house in 5 acres of land back home is cheaper than the mortgage your paying per month for your 3 bedroom terraced propery with a 12 ft rear garden, then so be it, but I'm sure the vast majority of British people are pissed off with the situation we are now in and the competition there is for a job even working in McDonald's!

If that's the case, you should move somewhere cheaper, surely?

It's true that a no-immigration at all policy would increase everyone's wage by restricting supply.

If labour was truly mobile, globally, there would be no geographical discrepencies between wages. Labour of course isn't.

It's not particularly efficient or productive though.

Everyone benefits if someone joins the country who is more productive and more efficient - with the exception of the person who can't compete - but that's the nature of capitalism isn't it?

You are taking the complete p*ss now and 'luckily' it doesn't affect me as I'm in a specialist industry, however I can assure you that if it did affect me and you told me I should move somewhere cheaper, so in affect be pushed out by immigrants I would tell you in non polite terms where to get off fella!!

Oh, and btw, I don't live in a 3 bed terrace either.....(not that there's anything wrong with that)

Soni

daviesee wrote:

Here's a thought..........

Is the OP (bearfraser) creasing himself at all this nonsense?

Was thinking this last night, I counted his contribution to this thread, two posts I believe I counted, in 7 pages, talk about light the blue touch paper and retire quickly!

EKIMIKE

daviesee wrote:

Here's a thought..........

Is the OP (bearfraser) creasing himself at all this nonsense?

I won't lie, i feck'n love these threads. Some of the stuff people believe, i find genuinely hilarious. Well, it's funny until someone with power/in power believes it...

Soni

EKIMIKE wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Here's a thought..........

Is the OP (bearfraser) creasing himself at all this nonsense?

I won't lie, i feck'n love these threads. Some of the stuff people believe, i find genuinely hilarious. Well, it's funny until someone with power/in power believes it...

Funny enough, I feel exactly the same way!

shouldbeinbed

Soni wrote:

Guys, there seem to be so many of you that can't see the problem with this mass immigration problem, and if that's really truly how you feel then let's see how you will feel in another decade when it gets even worse, and don't say I didn't warn you.

If you don't mind being shafted by an immigrant who gets your job because he has priced up a job cheaper than you because his 5 bedroom detached house in 5 acres of land back home is cheaper than the mortgage your paying per month for your 3 bedroom terraced propery with a 12 ft rear garden, then so be it, but I'm sure the vast majority of British people are pissed off with the situation we are now in and the competition there is for a job even working in McDonald's!

When I left school I went to McDonald's, sat down, had a chat with the manager and started the next day, you see if you can do that these days!

We are all entitled to our own opinions, and my opinion is shut the borders, end of, and no amount of persuation would ever change my opinion, even though severe damage has already been done, we can prevent it from getting any worse.

dipping back in so haven't read it all, you might like to answer or reiterate for the lazy ( )
at what age should we bring in enforced euthanasia? immigration isn't the only reason for the supposed overcrowding. after 60odd years of open borders and a supposed flood of immigrants (yeah right) the non white-british element of the UK population is ~15%. the over 65 years old element of the UK population is just over 15%.

These oldies don't generally contribute as much as they take out of the tax and welfare system, take up more than their share of NHS resources, get free TV, reduced heating bills, bus passes, have better pensions that we're paying for, got off lightly paying their share to others pensions when people had the good grace to die at 68...........grrrrr......insert more random vitriolic stereotyping here ......lets hire snipers to take people out as they walk out of work on their retirement day. yaddy yaddy yaddy change this age focussed bile for the racially/nationalistically focussed bile & whats the difference???


The population of England is 10x that of Scotland but the area is less than 2x. Do you really think the country is overcrowded, or are we just badly spread out around the place? even within Englands borders there are massive differences in population density. its not overcrowding it selective crowding.

Myabe tax breaks or government legislation to more evenly spread the businesses and population around rather than see as many people as possible pile into the south east corner and then look out of the window and go 'cor isn't it crowded in this country'

No it's not. its only crowded in the bit the media can't see beyond and love to provide headline grabbing knuckle dragging scaremongering reasons for.

daviesee

shouldbeinbed wrote:

The population of England is 10x that of Scotland but the area is less than 2x. Do you really think the country is overcrowded, or are we just badly spread out around the place? even within Englands borders there are massive differences in population density. its not overcrowding it selective crowding.

Myabe tax breaks or government legislation to more evenly spread the businesses and population around rather than see as many people as possible pile into the south east corner and then look out of the window and go 'cor isn't it crowded in this country'

No it's not. its only crowded in the bit the media can't see beyond and love to provide headline grabbing knuckle dragging scaremongering reasons for.

Are you suggesting that England subsidise Scotland?
OOoohhh! That'll really get the Daily Fail readers in a right tizz.

rick_chasey

Soni wrote:

You are taking the complete p*ss now and 'luckily' it doesn't affect me as I'm in a specialist industry, however I can assure you that if it did affect me and you told me I should move somewhere cheaper, so in affect be pushed out by immigrants I would tell you in non polite terms where to get off fella!!

Who knows, maybe I have .

Anonymous

Rick Chasey wrote:

Soni wrote:

If you don't mind being shafted by an immigrant who gets your job because he has priced up a job cheaper than you because his 5 bedroom detached house in 5 acres of land back home is cheaper than the mortgage your paying per month for your 3 bedroom terraced propery with a 12 ft rear garden, then so be it, but I'm sure the vast majority of British people are pissed off with the situation we are now in and the competition there is for a job even working in McDonald's!

If that's the case, you should move somewhere cheaper, surely?

It's true that a no-immigration at all policy would increase everyone's wage by restricting supply.

If labour was truly mobile, globally, there would be no geographical discrepencies between wages. Labour of course isn't.

It's not particularly efficient or productive though.

Everyone benefits if someone joins the country who is more productive and more efficient - with the exception of the person who can't compete - but that's the nature of capitalism isn't it?

Way too simplistic Rick, come on. Family ties, school disruption, friendships....the list goes on and on, why move when you are being squeezed ? No wonder people are angry about immigration if the educated answer is "move house", makes you wonder if the cabinet have the same opinion about the working population.

rick_chasey

I'm being a little facetious.

The point is more about the competitiveness.

If we see a big bank go bust because their prices are too high as a result of their high salaries, we'd all say they should pay them less to reduce their costs.

Surely it's the same for others too?

If someone decides to live in the UK and will work for cheaper rates because they have lower living expectations, then surely that's their gain? They're being competitive. That's what the free market that the UK loves is all about.

Said immigrants who are apparently under-cutting local workers still have to live there, pay the local prices for accomodation, food, tax, the lot.

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

Jez mon

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm being a little facetious.

The point is more about the competitiveness.

If we see a big bank go bust because their prices are too high as a result of their high salaries, we'd all say they should pay them less to reduce their costs.

Surely it's the same for others too?

If someone decides to live in the UK and will work for cheaper rates because they have lower living expectations, then surely that's their gain? They're being competitive. That's what the free market that the UK loves is all about.

Said immigrants who are apparently under-cutting local workers still have to live there, pay the local prices for accomodation, food, tax, the lot.

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

Isn't that last bit difficult? We've all been told that large numbers of young people should go to uni, and this will keep the UK in a healthy competitive position. But after graduating many are in just as bad a position, but with a lot of debt and as for a fall in living standards, that's probably unpalatable for 99% of the population!

rick_chasey

Jez mon wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm being a little facetious.

The point is more about the competitiveness.

If we see a big bank go bust because their prices are too high as a result of their high salaries, we'd all say they should pay them less to reduce their costs.

Surely it's the same for others too?

If someone decides to live in the UK and will work for cheaper rates because they have lower living expectations, then surely that's their gain? They're being competitive. That's what the free market that the UK loves is all about.

Said immigrants who are apparently under-cutting local workers still have to live there, pay the local prices for accomodation, food, tax, the lot.

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

Isn't that last bit difficult? We've all been told that large numbers of young people should go to uni, and this will keep the UK in a healthy competitive position. But after graduating many are in just as bad a position, but with a lot of debt and as for a fall in living standards, that's probably unpalatable for 99% of the population!

For sure it's difficult.

But restricting supply isn't the solution - it's a sticking plaster at best.

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

For sure, it's a drop in living standards. The solution isn't to restrict the supply though. It's to make the existing people more productive in the first place.

That's OK for skilled jobs, but what about unskilled ones? For example, I used to work for an employers who got rid of some long-standing, loyal employees in order to get cheap Asian labour in. Those men who were sacked will find it very difficult to find another job because they all had learning difficulties (the job was basically putting stuff into a washing machine and pressing the "on" button, but it gave them some sense of worth and a bit of financial independence). The new employees weren't more productive but they were cheaper.

If we are going to allow large-scale immigration in this country, we can't just let employers use the immigrants to undermine local workers.

nathancom

It has been proved in study after study that immigration does not remove labour from the local population, it leads to economic growth. Anecdotal evidence such as the above is meaningless.

A lot of people are blaming immigrants for the stalling of the UK economy, but it might be a better idea to blame successive UK governments who have shrunk away from any economic planning towards complete market deregulation. Markets will chase the quickest buck, leading to offshoring of industrial processes, with almost no interest in the long term health of the UK economy. For this reason most of us have to work in service industries that create less new value within the economy, but instead simply facilitate economic transfer.

This has led to us failing to take advantage of several new technologies, such as renewable energy, with industrial production being set up on the continent instead even when we have made the technological breakthroughs in the first place.

But hey, its easier to blame people with brown skins and foreign accents, isn't it?