Is it time to shut the UK borders

cornerblock

I get really pissed off when people assume it is OK to spout racist comments, as if they assume you will agree with their views. Does anybody else have moments where things are said very casually to them that are just plain wrong? There is a guy on the club ride who has come out with a couple of things on the ride that have made me drop back or put the hammer down just to get away from him. It's getting to the awkward stage where if he does carry on I know I will have to say something to him.

Me and the mrs had a mortgage advisor in our house last week, after a while he came out with a totally inappropriate comment about an area not far from us. How do you deal with that? Do you tell them immediately that what they have said is just not on, or do you just pretend you did not hear it? I'd like to think that I am quite an opinionated person, but are there times when it's best to say nothing to avoid escalating things?

So do others confront people when they utter really unacceptable comments? Or if you do decide to say nothing are you just enabling the problem to fester?

EKIMIKE

Having a considered, reasoned approach to migration is fine. It's not racist per se. Even being anti-immigration isn't racist per se. You can be anti-immigration for many other reasons than that of race. Just saying (and just to be clear, i'm pro immigration).

However the OP doesn't appear to have either a considered or reasoned approach and seems seriously misinformed.

millymoose

The problem has become that we are so anxious to be 'non-racist' that any inference to immigration/colour/nationality becomes a case to accuse anyone of having an opinion of being a racist. We are now so PC that we cannot have an opinion (unless it is seen to be PC) or we will be criticised!

EKIMIKE

Frankly, based on the OP the most i can impute is mild xenophobia. But even that is a stretch.

Stupidity and naivety on the other hand....

nweststeyn

Yeah. He may not necessarily be a racist. But he is clearly an idiot.

nweststeyn

bearfraser wrote:

Yes we might have difficulty getting a good curry now and again but HEY HO. Can we afford a night/carry out any way.

Just thought that needed re-quoted.

Turnbull2000

How the f*ckity f*ck is being opposed to mass immigration racist? The people that claim so are just a loathsome as the genuine racists.

cornerblock

nweststeyn wrote:

bearfraser wrote:

Yes we might have difficulty getting a good curry now and again but HEY HO. Can we afford a night/carry out any way.

Just thought that needed re-quoted.

That was the bit that stood out for me too. "HEY HO" :?: Silver lining, everywhere we go....................

shouldbeinbed

millymoose wrote:

The problem has become that we are so anxious to be 'non-racist' that any inference to immigration/colour/nationality becomes a case to accuse anyone of having an opinion of being a racist. We are now so PC that we cannot have an opinion (unless it is seen to be PC) or we will be criticised!

thanks for telling us all what we think and why, has it occurred to you we may simply see the OP as a fool for regurgitation what are clearly idiotic views fuelled by scaremongering press (and I did type fool & not Mr Chicken). even in supposed hotbeds of immigration, the white British population outnumber everyone else from everywhere else ~4:1.
Overall White British origin accounts for ~85% of everyone in the country, that's after 60+ years of pretty loosely opened borders. its not some sort of lentil eating sandal wearing, guardian reading, raffia mat weaving liberalism to suggest that the current localised water restrictions through dry winters and implications we're being swamped with immigrants is plainly stupid.

in 1960 there were ~600 centegenarians now there are over 13,000 (that's at what is currently, but won't be soon, considered an extreme old age) not immigration, it is down to better medical care and a far longer life expectancy, roll it down through the decades and see how many more people are living longer, penny dropping yet? The OP might as well be advocating Logans Run style forced euthanasia as closing the borders using the same Daily Mail logic, Forget the curries, we'd have an endless supply of 15 year old silver Rover 200's and there'd be Werthers Originals for all!

There is plenty of water and the country is not full. The water. like the people just tends to congregate more in certain areas of it, there is a significant difference.

Jez mon

shouldbeinbed wrote:

millymoose wrote:

The problem has become that we are so anxious to be 'non-racist' that any inference to immigration/colour/nationality becomes a case to accuse anyone of having an opinion of being a racist. We are now so PC that we cannot have an opinion (unless it is seen to be PC) or we will be criticised!

thanks for telling us all what we think and why, has it occurred to you we may simply see the OP as a fool for regurgitation what are clearly idiotic views fuelled by scaremongering press (and I did type fool & not Mr Chicken). even in supposed hotbeds of immigration, the white British population outnumber everyone else from everywhere else ~4:1.
Overall White British origin accounts for ~85% of everyone in the country, that's after 60+ years of pretty loosely opened borders. its not some sort of lentil eating sandal wearing, guardian reading, raffia mat weaving liberalism to suggest that the current localised water restrictions through dry winters and implications we're being swamped with immigrants is plainly stupid.

in 1960 there were ~600 centegenarians now there are over 13,000 (that's at what is currently, but won't be soon, considered an extreme old age) not immigration, it is down to better medical care and a far longer life expectancy, roll it down through the decades and see how many more people are living longer, penny dropping yet? The OP might as well be advocating Logans Run style forced euthanasia as closing the borders using the same Daily Mail logic, Forget the curries, we'd have an endless supply of 15 year old silver Rover 200's and there'd be Werthers Originals for all!

There is plenty of water and the country is not full. The water. like the people just tends to congregate more in certain areas of it, there is a significant difference.

Erm, where do you get your stats from, according to this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... land-wales

If you sort local authorities by those with the lowest percentage of British origin then you'll find that in Brent, it's 38% of people of British white origin, and 24% Asian.

Now, that doesn't seem to be outnumbering 4:1?

I'm not especially pro or anti immigration, but I am pro getting the facts right!

bearfraser

Can any one explain why being realistic about the increasing population in the UK is racist. We have to face the fact that the country is full. Have we not got one of the highest rates of population per square kilometer in the western world. The curry comment was generic and could apply to any foodstuffs and not impied that we have to many people of a specific ethnic origin , just that the country is overpopulated. I also appreciate that the planet has issues of population and this is something that has to be looked at . How long before wars for the control of fresh water/oil or even grazing rights its not feasable for the human race to continue breeding like rabbits and destroying the planet/envioroment

verylonglegs

Labour lost some of it's long term core voters because they appeared to automatically label anyone who mentioned immigration racist rather than engage them.

rolf_f

Jez mon wrote:

If you sort local authorities by those with the lowest percentage of British origin then you'll find that in Brent, it's 38% of people of British white origin, and 24% Asian.

Now, that doesn't seem to be outnumbering 4:1?

I'm not especially pro or anti immigration, but I am pro getting the facts right!

Yes - and if you go into the average Asian household, you'll find that the Asian population is almost invariably 100% :shock:

Ohmigod! There's none of us left!

bearfraser wrote:

How long before wars for the control of fresh water/oil or even grazing rights its not feasable for the human race to continue breeding like rabbits and destroying the planet/envioroment

This is true. It doesn't matter how much technology goes into increasing food production, population growth is unsustainable in the long run and will probably get worse over the next century.

However, that doesn't really have much bearing on a tiny proportion of people moving around in the developed world. Immigration would be better if there was less of it at the moment but it will sort itself out in the long run without us having to give up being the friendly and amenable country we largely are.

finchy

bearfraser wrote:

Can any one explain why being realistic about the increasing population in the UK is racist. We have to face the fact that the country is full. Have we not got one of the highest rates of population per square kilometer in the western world. The curry comment was generic and could apply to any foodstuffs and not impied that we have to many people of a specific ethnic origin , just that the country is overpopulated. I also appreciate that the planet has issues of population and this is something that has to be looked at . How long before wars for the control of fresh water/oil or even grazing rights its not feasable for the human race to continue breeding like rabbits and destroying the planet/envioroment

It is true that objecting to large scale immigration is not necessarily racist, and there are some legitimate concerns, but too often people just lump the blame for all of our nation's problems on the backs of those who have only been here for a few minutes. Take housing for example - the supply is not large enough for our demand, that is clear. Yet we have hundreds of thousands of empty properties in this country, lifestyle patterns are changing so more people are living alone and, unlike most other countries we have very little in the way of council housing, but people lay the blame for this situation entirely at the immigrants' feet.

cornerblock

johnfinch wrote:

bearfraser wrote:

Can any one explain why being realistic about the increasing population in the UK is racist. We have to face the fact that the country is full. Have we not got one of the highest rates of population per square kilometer in the western world. The curry comment was generic and could apply to any foodstuffs and not impied that we have to many people of a specific ethnic origin , just that the country is overpopulated. I also appreciate that the planet has issues of population and this is something that has to be looked at . How long before wars for the control of fresh water/oil or even grazing rights its not feasable for the human race to continue breeding like rabbits and destroying the planet/envioroment

It is true that objecting to large scale immigration is not necessarily racist, and there are some legitimate concerns, but too often people just lump the blame for all of our nation's problems on the backs of those who have only been here for a few minutes. Take housing for example - the supply is not large enough for our demand, that is clear. Yet we have hundreds of thousands of empty properties in this country, lifestyle patterns are changing so more people are living alone and, unlike most other countries we have very little in the way of council housing, but people lay the blame for this situation entirely at the immigrants' feet.

I agree. Raising concerns and wanting to discuss immigration does not make a person racist, and those that immediately jump on any discussion about such topics and accuse people of being racist are not being helpful, it's a topic that does concern a lot of people and they should feel free to talk about it. However when those concerns are backed up with comments about not being able to get a curry, as if that is all that immigrants have ever brought to this country, then they kind of lose the right to have their concerns listened to.

rick_chasey

Anti-immigration is often used as a vehicle issue for more unsavoury views and ideas - hence the kind of responsese anti-immigration views get.

Rightly or wrongly it's up to the anti-immigration arguers to prove that their view is born out of thinking that is free from prejudice.

finchy

I agree with Rick and Cornerblock, BUT I don't think that politicians help. Take the "BNP Question Time" for example - the politicians from the major parties could have discussed the advantages and disadvantages of immigration and explained to the people of this country how they seek to exploit the advantages and handle the disadvantages. Instead they spent the whole bloody show droning on about values and how the Germans would have beaten us in WW2 were it not for migrant soldiers. :roll:

Jez mon

Rolf F wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

If you sort local authorities by those with the lowest percentage of British origin then you'll find that in Brent, it's 38% of people of British white origin, and 24% Asian.

Now, that doesn't seem to be outnumbering 4:1?

I'm not especially pro or anti immigration, but I am pro getting the facts right!

Yes - and if you go into the average Asian household, you'll find that the Asian population is almost invariably 100% :shock:

Ohmigod! There's none of us left!

Huh?

I'm not trying to tap into some xenophobic fear about white British people suddenly being outnumbered by the minorities :shock: . Just saying that in certain "hotbeds" of immigration, the Guardian figures suggest that white British people don't heavily outnumber the immigrant population, as suggested by the 4:1 figure.

However, I would say either way, population figures are not terrifically helpful (apart from anything else, grouping Asians as a single group is a disaster waiting to happen!). For some, one in a million would be too many immigrants, for others, it's never any issue. Furthermore, there is always going to be a debate about what makes up a suitable sample size. Also, a single number tells you very little about the effect of the immigration, is the area pretty much the same as before just with a greater range of people, or has it virtually transformed into two separate areas, which never mix.

ilm_zero7

long overdue - but every little helps

rolf_f

Jez mon wrote:

Huh?

I'm not trying to tap into some xenophobic fear about white British people suddenly being outnumbered by the minorities :shock: . Just saying that in certain "hotbeds" of immigration, the Guardian figures suggest that white British people don't heavily outnumber the immigrant population, as suggested by the 4:1 figure.

All I was getting at is that if you zoom in far enough, you can get the statistics to say what you want. At some point, be it house, street or district level you are going to reach a point where an ethnic minority becomes the majority.

And as for immigration - that Guardian list divides the population into ethnic groupings - not whether or not people are recent immigrants (there is no reference to immigrants on the page at all). The ethnic issue is just confusing things though I know it wasn't you that brought that up!

Jez mon

Rolf F wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Huh?

I'm not trying to tap into some xenophobic fear about white British people suddenly being outnumbered by the minorities :shock: . Just saying that in certain "hotbeds" of immigration, the Guardian figures suggest that white British people don't heavily outnumber the immigrant population, as suggested by the 4:1 figure.

All I was getting at is that if you zoom in far enough, you can get the statistics to say what you want. At some point, be it house, street or district level you are going to reach a point where an ethnic minority becomes the majority.

And as for immigration - that Guardian list divides the population into ethnic groupings - not whether or not people are recent immigrants (there is no reference to immigrants on the page at all). The ethnic issue is just confusing things though I know it wasn't you that brought that up!

Fair enough, though I think that the areas I quoted are of a reasonable enough size.

Agree 100% with the last part of your post!

Either way, I'm not particularly sure either side should form a basis for/against immigration based on these sorts of numbers. If you think immigration is fine, then arguing that it makes no difference because it has a small effect on the demographic, isn't really an argument in favour. If you're against immigration, then arguing purely on numbers isn't a very good argument, because you're not actually pointing to specific issues.

verylonglegs

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anti-immigration is often used as a vehicle issue for more unsavoury views and ideas - hence the kind of responsese anti-immigration views get.

Rightly or wrongly it's up to the anti-immigration arguers to prove that their view is born out of thinking that is free from prejudice.

I disagree with that, it's that kind of attitude that drives people toward parties like the BNP, who know this and aim to exploit it, you have to pro-actively engage them. Effectively crossing your arms and adopting an air of self-appointed intellectual superiority is counter-productive to people who are already p1ssed off at what they perceive to be some sort of social injustice. They fear for their jobs, their childrens futures and need reassurance and well reasoned explanation/discussion, not a palm in face and cries of 'racist!' from some politician in an expensive suit who's never had a real full time job.

LeicesterLad

Just to add: There is NO shortage of housing in this country, it's just that we would rather build unaffordable undersized 4 bedroom houses than renovate and re-occupy the 930,000 empty homes in the UK. This figure does not include:-

Homes in very poor condition can be excluded from council tax and so are not counted in these statistics. No data is available to quantify how many of these there are nationally. Recent research in Bradford showed that there were 5,000 uninhabitable homes in that city, this indicates that there are many thousands across the country.

Homes due for demolition: Again these are exempt from council tax. In our view these should not be counted unless demolition is in doubt or has been cancelled. Currently 40,000 homes that were due for demolition under now cancelled regeneration schemes stand empty.

Flats above shops. Many unused flats above shops have no residential planning use class even though they are clearly laid out as dwellings. These are charged under business rates and not council tax and so do not feature in empty homes statistics. A report carried out for the government in 2004 estimated that there were 300,000 flats in this state in England.
.

Which, to be honest, is pretty f*cking criminal. I think you will agree, plenty of housing available for immigrant families and other needy people.

more here: http://emptyhomes.com/

bagpusscp

"Time to shut the UK borders".... :?

Don't tell me the border agency staff are now joining the growing list of pending strikes....... :roll:

Turnbull2000

LeicesterLad wrote:

Just to add: There is NO shortage of housing in this country, it's just that we would rather build unaffordable undersized 4 bedroom houses than renovate and re-occupy the 930,000 empty homes in the UK. This figure does not include:-

As a percentage of housing stock, the number of empty homes in the UK is actually exceptionally low. A lack of excess property is most certainly a contributory factor in the continued high performance of UK house prices compared to most other nations.

With little incentive for developers and government to mass build and net immigration continuing to run at historically unprecedented levels of 250,000 per year, house prices will resume and rents will continue their upwards trajectory over the coming years.

MaxwellBygraves

verylonglegs wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anti-immigration is often used as a vehicle issue for more unsavoury views and ideas - hence the kind of responsese anti-immigration views get.

Rightly or wrongly it's up to the anti-immigration arguers to prove that their view is born out of thinking that is free from prejudice.

I disagree with that, it's that kind of attitude that drives people toward parties like the BNP, who know this and aim to exploit it, you have to pro-actively engage them. Effectively crossing your arms and adopting an air of self-appointed intellectual superiority is counter-productive to people who are already p1ssed off at what they perceive to be some sort of social injustice. They fear for their jobs, their childrens futures and need reassurance and well reasoned explanation/discussion, not a palm in face and cries of 'racist!' from some politician in an expensive suit who's never had a real full time job.

+1 I agree with you, verylonglegs.

Noam Chomsky, albeit from an American perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MHEuudJ-o0

EKIMIKE

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anti-immigration is often used as a vehicle issue for more unsavoury views and ideas - hence the kind of responsese anti-immigration views get.

Rightly or wrongly it's up to the anti-immigration arguers to prove that their view is born out of thinking that is free from prejudice.

Did you really think about that before you wrote it?

I take that last sentence as meaning (in practice): Unless you can prove otherwise, you are presumed to prejudiced (racist/xenophobic) if you are anti-immigration?

Now, the British legal system uses a rebuttable presumption, but that's the presumption of innocence. Your sentence amounts to a presumption of guilt.

I'm genuinely curious to here your reasoning on that. True, the presumption of guilt does pop up in law occasionally but it's usually with great reluctance and requires some awfully solid reasoning.

rick_chasey

verylonglegs wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anti-immigration is often used as a vehicle issue for more unsavoury views and ideas - hence the kind of responsese anti-immigration views get.

Rightly or wrongly it's up to the anti-immigration arguers to prove that their view is born out of thinking that is free from prejudice.

I disagree with that, it's that kind of attitude that drives people toward parties like the BNP, who know this and aim to exploit it, you have to pro-actively engage them. Effectively crossing your arms and adopting an air of self-appointed intellectual superiority is counter-productive to people who are already p1ssed off at what they perceive to be some sort of social injustice. They fear for their jobs, their childrens futures and need reassurance and well reasoned explanation/discussion, not a palm in face and cries of 'racist!' from some politician in an expensive suit who's never had a real full time job.

*shrugs*

Ultimately, if people are racist and/or using the anti-immigration argument as a vehicle for their more unsavoury ideas then there's not much I can do right?

You can't reason with someone over an issue like immigration if their issue is race.

If they feel their agenda for racism means they are pushed to the fringes of politics, then so be it. Those views belong there.

If their concern is legitimate then I'm happy to listen and engage. Unfortunately, in my experience, I have met very few people who can legitimately argue about immigration without exposing more unsavoury underlying prejudices. They exist and I'm happy to listen and engage with them. But the vast majority don't get that, and you can't reason with racism.

rick_chasey

EKIMIKE wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Anti-immigration is often used as a vehicle issue for more unsavoury views and ideas - hence the kind of responsese anti-immigration views get.

Rightly or wrongly it's up to the anti-immigration arguers to prove that their view is born out of thinking that is free from prejudice.

Did you really think about that before you wrote it?

I take that last sentence as meaning (in practice): Unless you can prove otherwise, you are presumed to prejudiced (racist/xenophobic) if you are anti-immigration?

Pretty much. It's been used too often as a vehicle for other worse ideas, as I said above.

It's not a legal thing. It's more where I stand. I won't pay any anti-immigration argument attention until it's become clear to me they don't have an ulterior motive for it, and the reasons are legitimate.

Soni

vitesse169 wrote:

The Aussies do it, the Yanks do it, the Germans/French/Spanish all take less than 10% of the assylum seekers that we do - I'm not being racist, but why should we be the dumping ground in Europe ? Remember San Gatte in N.France ?...... It's still there, the problem is still there - the French authorities choose to ignore it largely as the outflow is away from France into the UK. It's because no other place has the welfare state we do that people can take advantage of.
If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong and I'll stand corrected - I know it's not a simple situation with a simple answer - but what do we do ???

I think its a great shame when people feel the need to justify/clarify in their posts or conversations that they aren't racists when talking about the immigration problem......

What ever happened to freedom of speech? If you aren't happy with the way our country is being run and over run by mass immigration then are we not entitled to voice our opinion anymore through fear of being a racist? This is exactly what has led to this problem in the first place, our Country wanting to be seen as being kind, caring, generous, and not wanting to appear as being a racist country, the Government need to grow a pair of balls and stand up to the critics, if the Borders should be closed then close them, if we are thought of as being a racist country for doing so then so be it!

Our fathers/grandfathers/great grandfathers thought two world wars to protect our borders and country from what is happening right now and our Government have just opened the Border doors and are welcoming everybody with open arms! Take a look at the world globe, look at the size of Europe compared with the size of the UK, the whole of Europe is attracted to and is travelling to (as we speak), to such a small area on the globe (the UK) like a magnet! Why? Because we are handing out paychecks and free homes to the immigrants and mugs like us British taxpayers are having to pick up the bill, do you enjoy working 3 months per year for nothing more but to pay the tax to fund this type of system ?

Watch UK Border Force on TV, those immigrants stowed away in the backs of those trailiers, they kick them off, they go straight into hiding in the 'bush' and then try the next trailer over, its like a game to them, they need to be disciplined in a way that will deter them from trying again, we are paying a lot of money to police our Borders and its clearly not working, due to no deterrent, because they know if they don't succeed the first time, then its only a matter of time until they jump on the next trailer and get accross, because they know we don't have the resources to check every trailer and there is no deterrent.

What about Builders, Plasterers, Plumbers, etc., who have families, homes, mortgages to pay for in this Country and need to earn a decent crust to meet their mortgage payment each month, but immigration has allowed foreigners to enter the country and work for lower rates of pay because their properties back home are so much cheaper than here in the UK, so they can afford to undercut British workers, ship the money back home, and then when they are done, return home and retire at 45/50 with their feet up on the sofa living a cushy little life whilst the British guy is having their homes and cars repossessed and having to work into their late 70's because they are working for less than half the wage they were getting 10 years ago! I was speaking to a Polish guy a couple of years ago in a building in London and he had been working here about a year, i asked him if he likes it here, he said he can't stand our country, he said he's only here for the money and will then be going back home!

If the above offends anybody then so be it, those who like to play the race card need to grow a pair and realise that its nothing to do with the colour of peoples skin or the country they come from, its about the hard work and cost of life that our ancestors have paid over the years to make it such a great country as it once was, and seeing it going down the pan like it is now, and when it is affecting the lives of British people in the process, this is what gets on British peoples tits and nothing more.