Di2

meanredspider

rjsterry wrote:

BTW, what's the battery life like on them and what happens when it does go flat? If you are retro fitting, is damage to the wiring a significant concern? I ask as my computer died as a result of the cables being worn away.

Battery life is meant to be over 1000 miles. As per my post above - 30 hours down and not 50% through the first charge. At this rate, I'm only going to charge it less than 10 times a year. Charges really quickly too.

As battery fails, first you lose front shifting and then rear shifting. There's an indicator so you can check broad battery state

ETA - cables can be run internally or externally (under sheath). Don't think there's a big concern but they are easily replaceable should you damage them

CiB

rjsterry wrote:

Sure it's an improvement, but enough of an improvement to justify the cost of another bike. €1600 to cover up for my sloppy shifting technique just puts it so far down the list as to be of no further concern.

BTW, what's the battery life like on them and what happens when it does go flat? If you are retro fitting, is damage to the wiring a significant concern? I ask as my computer died as a result of the cables being worn away.

None of it can be justified really though unless the rider is a pro/semi-pro in with a shout of making a mark. Doesn't stop us buying carbon bikes, or bikes with >Tiagra g/sets though. It's within a budget, doesn't mean the kids go without for the next four months (just the two in this case ), and was my Next Big Thing anyway.

Battery life is supposed to be measured in months / hundreds of miles. All reports are that they'll go easily three months between charges; when it goes flat initially it shows a warning to encourage a recharge and then a dead battery means you're stuck in whatever gear it's in when the battery dies. Like the review said, you've got to ignore a lot of warning before it gives up on you. And 50000 charge cycles too - that should see me into the next life.

I'd expect damage to the cables would be a concern. That applies to any electrical cabling though.

spasypaddy

ive been eyeing up for a while, but if it cant go on my Look and internally routed then its not going to happen. and it cant be so its not

il_principe

I've put a deposit down on EPS Record which will adorn the new bike. Very excited.

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

I've put a deposit down on EPS Record which will adorn the new bike. Very excited.

A momet of honest humility here. I actually cannot quite get my head around the fact that your building up a Dogma, I'm actually excited (in the giddy kind of way) for you.

Will you be keeping the Prince.

AND to bring the thread kind of back on track, what is the difference between Campag EPS and Shimano's i2 stuff. Apart from the obivous ones Shimano and the other is Campag?

Paul E

DonDaddyD wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I've put a deposit down on EPS Record which will adorn the new bike. Very excited.

AND to bring the thread kind of back on track, what is the difference between Campag EPS and Shimano's i2 stuff. Apart from the obivous ones Shimano and the other is Campag?

None apart from one is 10 speed the other 11

fossyant

EPS is 11 speed, looks nicer too. Levers work the way their mechanical stuff does.

Not much in it really, just like the mechanical groups. It's bling !!

What's the waiting list like for EPS, II Principe ?

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I've put a deposit down on EPS Record which will adorn the new bike. Very excited.

A momet of honest humility here. I actually cannot quite get my head around the fact that your building up a Dogma, I'm actually excited (in the giddy kind of way) for you.

Will you be keeping the Prince.

AND to bring the thread kind of back on track, what is the difference between Campag EPS and Shimano's i2 stuff. Apart from the obivous ones Shimano and the other is Campag?

Dogma2 my friend, not Dogma

Yep, keeping the Prince and selling the Focus.

Key differences:

Campag lets you shift an entire cassette with one swoosh of the lever. Basically the amount of time you depress the levers dictates how many cogs shift. Di2 requires one "click" per shift
Campag brains are in the battery, Di2's in the front derailleur.
Campag's diagnostics are built in so you can tune etc on the fly. Shimano require the purchase of a separate kit.
Campag has a function where if you run out of power you can manually uncouple and shift the rear derailluer to a "get home" gear, then re-engage it and ride. Shimano doesn't offer this.
Di2 is ugly, EPS is beautiful
Di2's battery is removed for charging, Campag's stays on the bike.
Campag is 11 speed, Shimano is 10 w/ 11 on the way.
Record is lighter than Di2, Super Record is lighter still.

Erm think that's it.

il_principe

fossyant wrote:

EPS is 11 speed, looks nicer too. Levers work the way their mechanical stuff does.

Not much in it really, just like the mechanical groups. It's bling !!

What's the waiting list like for EPS, II Principe ?

Dunno, Sigma took delivery of 1 Record and 1 Super Record gruppo in Feb. I nabbed the Record. Imagine it's not too bad. OTOH the wait for the EPS compatible Dogma2 is 3 months! So far I've completed 5 weeks of that! Arrggghhhhhh.

And yep, EPS is stunning. Makes Di2 look plastic-y (IMHO).

spasypaddy

Il Principe wrote:

I've put a deposit down on EPS Record which will adorn the new bike. Very excited.

should have been super record.

il_principe

I know your feelings on this! But the price to weight ratio for Super is just nuts. As if the pricing wasn't terrifying enough already.

spasypaddy

i know, i know. its going to be nice, very nice. now you can race the principe and keep the dogma for training...

meanredspider

Il Principe wrote:

Campag lets you shift an entire cassette with one swoosh of the lever. Basically the amount of time you depress the levers dictates how many cogs shift. Di2 requires one "click" per shift
Campag brains are in the battery, Di2's in the front derailleur.
Campag's diagnostics are built in so you can tune etc on the fly. Shimano require the purchase of a separate kit.
Campag has a function where if you run out of power you can manually uncouple and shift the rear derailluer to a "get home" gear, then re-engage it and ride. Shimano doesn't offer this.
Di2 is ugly, EPS is beautiful
Di2's battery is removed for charging, Campag's stays on the bike.
Campag is 11 speed, Shimano is 10 w/ 11 on the way.
Record is lighter than Di2, Super Record is lighter still.

Erm think that's it.

A few questions of clarification:

When would you want to shift the entire cassette? I don't think I ever do that on the MTB let alone the road bike.
Can you not swap the Campag battery? Can you not charge it off the bike (whilst you use a second battery)?
Tune on the fly? You can index the rear cassette on the fly on Di2 - not sure what else you need.

The disabling of the front derailleur first is to allow you to choose a rear "get you home" gear before you lose the battery. At something slightly larger than a matchbox, I think you'd carry a second battery if you were planning to ride more than 1000 miles at a go

DonDaddyD

meanredspider wrote:

When would you want to shift the entire cassette?

Imagine the scenario. You are hurly yourself down the Embankment I'm talking about going so fast the police are contemplating pulling you over for riding 'furiously'. Mr Ribble devils past you with a rage that only Lucifer could bring. You are already in 'Sprint Mode', cadence is up there in V12 region. You need to drop that cassette from 8 to 11 in the gap between a second because you energy is dropping fast and Mr Ribble isn't letting up. You sure better hope you have Campag.

Or so I'm told.

Can you not swap the Campag battery? Can you not charge it off the bike (whilst you use a second battery)?

You probably can replace batteries on both - it wouldn't make sense to design it any other way. I think the idea is - what with battery technology being what it is - that you probably won't ever wear the battery out enough to need two. Think about the last time you had two mobile phone batteries for one phone... What I'd like to see is a system that uses braking energy or energy (heat maybe) from the bottom bracket to charge the battery...

Tune on the fly? You can index the rear cassette on the fly on Di2 - not sure what else you need.

I didn't quite get that either but by this point I was sold on Campag being better than Shimano.

The disabling of the front derailleur first is to allow you to choose a rear "get you home" gear before you lose the battery. At something slightly larger than a matchbox, I think you'd carry a second battery if you were planning to ride more than 1000 miles at a go

I think the system is more to do with if there is an electrical/battery fault. Why carry a second battery at all. Mobile phone point again...

FoldingJoe

Just checked the price of EPS - WOW, that is crazy.

£3k, and that is just for Record...

Seems like Il P had a good year, never mind CiB!!

FoldingJoe

DonDaddyD wrote:

Can you not swap the Campag battery? Can you not charge it off the bike (whilst you use a second battery)?

You probably can replace batteries on both - it wouldn't make sense to design it any other way.

This is Campag we are talking about....

I've just had to shell out over £100 just to remove my PT bottom bracket!!

rick_chasey

of 37 votes, 4 have it already, 2 are definitely planning to?

Bike shops and bike kit manufacturers must seriously love this place!

spasypaddy

because the brain is in the battery removing it from the campag system is more difficult and expensive. it is of course replaceable just like the rear mech is, or the bottom bracket. its just not detachable like the shimano battery.

DonDaddyD

Does this mean you have to keep the whole bike near a plug socket when charging?

And in the peloton if you have a battery/brain problem with EPS does that mean you are effectively out - even with the uncouple mechanism - whereas with i2 the support vehicle comes along replaces your battery (or you nick your team mates) and you can get on with things?

Kieran_Burns

DonDaddyD wrote:

(snip: waffle)
You probably can replace batteries on both - it wouldn't make sense to design it any other way. I think the idea is - what with battery technology being what it is - that you probably won't ever wear the battery out enough to need two. Think about the last time you had two mobile phone batteries for one phone... What I'd like to see is a system that uses braking energy or energy (heat maybe) from the bottom bracket to charge the battery...

(snip: more waffle)

I think you'll find that's called a Dynamo.

Or if you want to be really posh: fit KERS

CiB

DonDaddyD wrote:

Does this mean you have to keep the whole bike near a plug socket when charging?

We have extension leads in the North country, past J5 off the M1.

il_principe

meanredspider wrote:

A few questions of clarification:

When would you want to shift the entire cassette? I don't think I ever do that on the MTB let alone the road bike.

Say you swoop down a hill and are suddenly confronted by a very steep ramp - as happened to me on the Dragon ride one year. But, I just like the fact that you can drop 2 or 3 gears in one go. Love that about Campag mechanical, hate that you can't with Shimano.

meanredspider wrote:

Can you not swap the Campag battery? Can you not charge it off the bike (whilst you use a second battery)?

You can replace it but it's a hassle. Campag decided on a fully sealed unit. Supposedly the trade off is increased resistance to water, crud and vibration. Then story goes that a test gruppo got a soaking back in 06. Bike was on top of a car being driven fast through a rain storm. Water got in to the battery so Campag went back to the drawing board. Either way, you're supposed to get 500 charges out of 1 battery and people are reporting 3000km's ridden between charges. So it shouldn't be an issue.

meanredspider wrote:

Tune on the fly? You can index the rear cassette on the fly on Di2 - not sure what else you need.

Me neither. All I know is that Campag's diagnostics are built in. Di2 requires the purchase of a separate kit.

meanredspider wrote:

The disabling of the front derailleur first is to allow you to choose a rear "get you home" gear before you lose the battery. At something slightly larger than a matchbox, I think you'd carry a second battery if you were planning to ride more than 1000 miles at a go

Missing the point . If you crash then EPS will sense the impact and automatically uncouple the rear derailleur to prevent damage. Also if you crash and damage the wiring then this is a useful feature, or if the electronics just fail for some reason. Either way it seems like a good option to have, just hope it's never needed. I think you'd have to be a bit of a muppet to run out of power on a ride with either system, they both seem to have lots of warning points built in.

meanredspider

EPS is very pretty but a bit frightening in terms of cost.

I think most of the differences are immaterial - you pays your money. Batteries are not designed to be swapped on EPS. They can be replaced but not a trivial change (just been reading about it)

Di2 has a rear mech protection system that, if it detects a crash, winds the derailleur in out of harms way (in theory). Not tested it in practice.

rick_chasey

I'm presuming these bikes with electronic kit are insured?

Wouldn't like to see the rage you'd get if someone pranged your derailieur from behind by accident.

stuaff

Il Principe wrote:

fossyant wrote:

EPS is 11 speed, looks nicer too. Levers work the way their mechanical stuff does.

Not much in it really, just like the mechanical groups. It's bling !!

What's the waiting list like for EPS, II Principe ?

Dunno, Sigma took delivery of 1 Record and 1 Super Record gruppo in Feb. I nabbed the Record. Imagine it's not too bad. OTOH the wait for the EPS compatible Dogma2 is 3 months! So far I've completed 5 weeks of that! Arrggghhhhhh.

And yep, EPS is stunning. Makes Di2 look plastic-y (IMHO).

Three months? Arrggghhhhhh indeed. Considering there's probably pent-up demand for EPS, the same frames are compatible with Ui2 & Di2, and the financial problems in Italy at the moment (I've heard rumours about Viner being affected, sure they're not the only ones), sadly not surprising. Worth the wait though, I'm sure!

CiB

Il Principe wrote:

If you crash then EPS will sense the impact and automatically uncouple the rear derailleur to prevent damage.

Shimano has the same idea. No plans here to test it.

CiB

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm presuming these bikes with electronic kit are insured?

Wouldn't like to see the rage you'd get if someone pranged your derailieur from behind by accident.

It's a pile of components so if your rear mech's pranged you buy a new rear mech for whatever it costs, not the whole shooting match.

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

Does this mean you have to keep the whole bike near a plug socket when charging?

Yes. But my bike already lives next to a power socket. Personally I'd rather have the really really well sealed unit. Campag have had EPS in development for far longer the Shimano had Di2 so hopefully they'll have ironed out more kinks.

DonDaddyD wrote:

And in the peloton if you have a battery/brain problem with EPS does that mean you are effectively out - even with the uncouple mechanism - whereas with i2 the support vehicle comes along replaces your battery (or you nick your team mates) and you can get on with things?

Well no, they'd just jump on another bike! Anyway, Di2's brain is in the derailleur, so if that fails you're gonna have to swap bikes anyway.

Anyway Movistar ran EPS all last year without a single reported failure.

Look I'm sure both systems are great, but I prefer Campag and putting Shimano on a Pinarello is all kinds of wrong.

rick_chasey

CiB wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm presuming these bikes with electronic kit are insured?

Wouldn't like to see the rage you'd get if someone pranged your derailieur from behind by accident.

It's a pile of components so if your rear mech's pranged you buy a new rear mech for whatever it costs, not the whole shooting match.

It's still not cheap though, right?

rolf_f

DonDaddyD wrote:

Does this mean you have to keep the whole bike near a plug socket when charging?

Who doesn't have a plug socket in their bedroom?