Marmotte 2012

bahzob

Brian B wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

My original plan was not to go abroad in 2012 but I am already having second thoughts. Dont where I would go if I did. I have been to Ventoux area 3 times now(and will again but not next year) done the Stelvio, Mortorolo, Gavia area, The Pyrenees and the marmotte area twice now but easily do them again. The company I did the Pyrennes is now longer operating but will ask my brother who he went with in 2010. Fancy doing the marmotte again in the future but also want to ride it on my own and spend some time in the area and take in the beautiful climb up to la berarde again.

If you like big mountains 2 things every cyclist should do before they die are the randonees sometimes called the raid pyreneen and raid dolomite. First is 4.5 days from the atlantic coast across pyrenees to the med. Second is 10 days from geneva to trieste/venice across the alps and dolmites. Both are utterly great.

Full Merckx

Without the usual internet induced willy waving I wondered what everyone is managing at the moment. My training OCD has kept me fairly consistent, but got a lower back issue affecting my running so even more bike miles. Had to contend with some factors which limited training time but now managing 250k per week as a combination of commute and turbo. All of this is at aerobic base development level, so HR 70-80% MHR, although I suspect my commute is lower.
Managed to drop 4kg so far too, but probably need to get rid of a bit more. Comments and advice would be appreciated from those who have done it before.

Brian B

Your milage is great for this time of the year(far much more than what I do) and usually my winter training and last years for the marmotte only consisted of 4 x 1 hourly sessions on my spinning bike per week. I just tick over in winter until spring when I can start to get in some serious miles on the road.

I have been doing 100 miles plus rides/sportives and going abroad for the big climbs for almost a decade now and the best advice I can give is in spring to do as much hilly long route and sportives that you can manage/afford. This will get your fitness up and you get used to how your body will feel with over a hundred miles and a few thousand metres of climbs in the legs. Sportives are great as you usually are spurred on to go outside of your comfort zone and get used to riding in big groups and how to avoid the less experienced cyclists. Make sure your get in enough rest though and it does not hurt to miss the odd night from your training routine.

Due to work and family week nights for me in summer were only 30 mile runs but I make them count and hit as much hills as I can and as fast as possible and only did this twice a week with either two 40mile runs at the weekend or a sportive or big run. I seem to be able to ramp up in spring to 130 mile runs easily now but that may be because over the years my body has got used to it.

Winter for me is the best time to lose weight and reduce portions and dont eat after 10pm worked for me and for the marmotte you want to be as lean as possible as even the 4kg you have lost will pay dividends come July next year. Come spring you will lose a few more kgs when your milage starts to increase.

I am no expert and dont use any training aids such HRMs but I go old school and just get in the miles on the road with lots of hills at decent pace. Dont listen to anybody who says you can train for the marmotte without doing specific hill training - it all comes down to how well you can climb at a consistent pace for hours on end and how quickly you can recover before the next effort. Only real miles with hills can give you this experience.

As for lower back problems I do a hundred proper press ups a day with stretching to increase core stabilty and this regime 3 years ago stopped all my back problems initially caused by a ruptured disc in its track. For years my back was giving me a lot of problems and ended up for me with weeks of my bike at a time.

I managed 8hrs20 on this years Marmotte but it is harder than any sportive on blighty due to the length of the climbs.

bahzob

Not sure I'd agree the marmotte is necessarily harder than any UK sportive. Its just different, with massive unrelenting climbs. Yes these are tough but on the plus side you get a huge amount of time to recover after each of them. This is unlike a typical UK sportive. As a specific example I train with a power meter which measures how tough a ride is. Figures for the Marmotte showed it was pretty much the same as the Highclere sportive. In terms of perceived difficulty I actually found the Marmotte easier, especially the last hour, climbing the Alpe D'Huez with lots of other folks and support all the way is, to my mind a lot easier than riding solo into a headwind over a seemingly never ending series of ups and downs.

This should be borne in mind when training for the Marmotte. Training on hills in the UK is only of limited benefit since none are comparable to those in the event. Indeed hill training may be counter productive if your approach to them is to big ring your way up them. Time is best spent doing long sustained efforts at a consistent pace, great preparation is to do some TTs, especially 25s, better still 50s. A 50 is very similar to a Marmotte climb in terms of time, effort and nutrition needed, so doing some will help you judge pace which is one of the keys to success.

On back problems I'd definitely go along with core work as a great help. Other thing, if not already done, is get a bike fitting. I know from personal experience that the difference of just a few mm in terms of variables like seat height or reach can make a massive difference in terms of comfort on a 7-10 hour ride.

Rodrego Hernandez

bahzob wrote:

Not sure I'd agree the marmotte is necessarily harder than any UK sportive. Its just different, with massive unrelenting climbs. Yes these are tough but on the plus side you get a huge amount of time to recover after each of them. This is unlike a typical UK sportive. As a specific example I train with a power meter which measures how tough a ride is. Figures for the Marmotte showed it was pretty much the same as the Highclere sportive. In terms of perceived difficulty I actually found the Marmotte easier, especially the last hour, climbing the Alpe D'Huez with lots of other folks and support all the way is, to my mind a lot easier than riding solo into a headwind over a seemingly never ending series of ups and downs.

This should be borne in mind when training for the Marmotte. Training on hills in the UK is only of limited benefit since none are comparable to those in the event. Indeed hill training may be counter productive if your approach to them is to big ring your way up them. Time is best spent doing long sustained efforts at a consistent pace, great preparation is to do some TTs, especially 25s, better still 50s. A 50 is very similar to a Marmotte climb in terms of time, effort and nutrition needed, so doing some will help you judge pace which is one of the keys to success.

On back problems I'd definitely go along with core work as a great help. Other thing, if not already done, is get a bike fitting. I know from personal experience that the difference of just a few mm in terms of variables like seat height or reach can make a massive difference in terms of comfort on a 7-10 hour ride.

A power meter does not measure how hard a ride is. It measures your power output.

The Marmotte is far tougher than any UK sportive - it climbs 4 alpine climbs that can take in excess of an hour to get up. Take it easy on the Marmotte versus going hard on the highclere is not a proper comparison.

You're right about training long sustained efforts though. You can't practice riding hour long climbs in the UK but you can practice riding hard for an hour.

gsk82

i found in the marmotte that at no point on alpe d'huez was i in bit, it's just not steep enough to enduce that on a mild day. after 100 miles id much rather spin up a 7% alpine climb than battle up a 25% climb in the dales. on the other hand i had trained and probably peaked for the marmotte which may explain it in part.

Brian B

As I said I am no expert and dont use training aids and my time certainly was not quickest but just do what works for me.

Still say that there is no substitute for hill training though - sure there are no UK hills that can really compare but doing a 50 though for me might be similar in effort but is totally different in every other way. You dont see the pro's doing training for the mountains by doing TTs, they do hills and lots of them. Saying that I did lots training on my spinning bike with the resistance ramped up and I am sure it helped

I find it easier to hit hill after hill in UK sportives(as thats how I train) and for me there was not much respite in the marmotte. Going along the valley towards the Telegraph I was leap frogging groups and i was going for it. The descent of the Galibeir to the foot of the Alpe was frantic and was giving 100% to keep up with groups.

You have to be able to go the distance and know the limitations of your body - only 100 plus rides will give the experience on how to handle 7 -10 hours in the saddle.

twotyred

Dont listen to anybody who says you can train for the marmotte without doing specific hill training - it all comes down to how well you can climb at a consistent pace for hours on end and how quickly you can recover before the next effort. Only real miles with hills can give you this experience.

As I said I am no expert

I'm not an expert either but I was trained by one for the Marmotte. It is simply not necessary to train on hills for the Marmotte. There are no British hills that will simulate the climbs you get in the Marmotte as they are usually either too steep, too short or both. Like the other posters have said you need to be able to ride near your threshold for a couple of hours at a time, have enough endurance to get around and be a confident descender.

Sure if you happen to live in Wales and Scotland and can train regularly on decent size hills that aren't stupidly steep then its only going to help but its far from necessary.

IMHO hill training that would help, especially if you have never done a big alpine climb, is to get out to the Continent beforehand and tackle some 1000+ metre climbs so that on the day you are not going into the unknown and will have the confidence and knowledge you can get up them and have an idea of the pace you can sustain.

You also don't have to be putting in regular century training rides but having said that you need to have built up enough economy and endurance for a long, hard day in the saddle.

I'm a long way from being a cycling god, just a 50 year old guy with no talent for aerobic power, but I got round the Marmotte with a silver medal time without specific hill training and with my longest training ride being 4 hours. I also did 4 century sportives leading up to it including the Dragon Ride. I did have previous experience of big climbs though.

Brian B

twotyred wrote:

Dont listen to anybody who says you can train for the marmotte without doing specific hill training - it all comes down to how well you can climb at a consistent pace for hours on end and how quickly you can recover before the next effort. Only real miles with hills can give you this experience.

As I said I am no expert

I'm not an expert either but I was trained by one for the Marmotte.

You might be like me and not be an expert cyclist either but you are pretty adept at extracting quotes from posts. Here is quote for you 'and jesus wept'.

Leroy42

While it is true that the UK (& Ireland where I am based) have no hills comparable to the alpine climbs I think many people are missing a major factor which needs to be factored in.

True, 25 miles TT or 50 miles TT will get you used to the sort of power and sustained work you will need to the climbs, but climbing is a very different experience than a TT.

One final aspect is the descents. They go on for quite a while, and especially the start of the Croix de Fer, can be very technical. If all you have done is short decents of even TT, then you may not be prepared for the skills that are required. Some of the descenting skills on show in the marmotte are truly staggering (in a bad way!) and it is an area that you can make significant time savings without making too much effort.

In 2010 myself and two others did the Marmotte, each reached the top of Croix de Fer at different times, but our computers show that we all descented within 2 mins of each others times.

Do not underestimate that descents, or even the mental attitude to being stuck climbing a mountain for 90 minutes. Have done a fair few sportives in Ireland, and I can easily say that the Marmotte is far and away the toughest. The heat, the climbs, the descents, everything about it is tough. It is doable, and a gold is relatively acheiveable, but do not underestimate it.

If you are finding the Aple 'not too bad' at the end, then I would suggest that you are not trying hard enough!

twotyred

One final aspect is the descents. They go on for quite a while, and especially the start of the Croix de Fer, can be very technical. If all you have done is short decents of even TT, then you may not be prepared for the skills that are required.

If you have done any mountainbiking then road descents anywhere including the descent from the Glandon are far from technical. I'd advise anyone trying to improve their descending to do a bit of mountainbiking. After that you'll smile when anyone describes a road descent as technical.

The downhill off the Glandon was one of my favourite parts of the Marmotte. The memory of descending into the warm air, with great scenery and a sound track of cowbells is still with me.

Brian B

Was'nt the actual descents that I found tricky it was the people descending with me that made it fraught with danger. I have done lots of alpine descents and know my limitations but found other riders thinking they were in the TDF and thinking it was closed roads and were taking chances with traffic. On the descent of the Glandon I saw a few nasty crashes caused by inexperience and people not used to riding in groups.

The descent of the Galibier was fantastic however to the Lauteret but again down into the valley from there was a bit hectic with people taking way too many chances with traffic and saw actual groups of people on the wrong side of the road in the tunnels.

Normally when I am abroad I like to stop on descents and take in the views and gets some pics as I dont stop when climbing.

maddog 2

+1 the Glandon descent is brilliant but if you're quick then you'll need to overtake a lot of riders, which often means riding in the moddle of the road. By the time you get to the Galibier descent then field is much more spread apart so descending is easier.

As said, if you've done any decent MTBing then you'll probably be quicker than a big chunk of the roadies.

bahzob

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

A power meter does not measure how hard a ride is. It measures your power output.

The Marmotte is far tougher than any UK sportive - it climbs 4 alpine climbs that can take in excess of an hour to get up. Take it easy on the Marmotte versus going hard on the highclere is not a proper comparison.

You're right about training long sustained efforts though. You can't practice riding hour long climbs in the UK but you can practice riding hard for an hour.

Sorry but a power meter does more than measure power output. It gives a view of how hard a ride is, via a measure called "Training Stress Score" or TSS. This is extensively used in training and race analysis and there is ample evidence it provides a reasonable measure of how "tough" a ride is, judged in terms of how stressful it is and what this implies in terms of training impact/recovery. Figures for the Marmotte and century+ UK sportives show they are broadly comparable.

In the absence of a power meter you rely on your own personal judgement for how tough a ride is and that can be misleading because its subjective. Taking the Marmotte as an example, my first experience of doing massive amounts of cycling was in France. Early on I was doing long climbs and got used to pacing them. So I happen to find the Marmotte much less "tough" than say the Highclere. I certainly feel a lot more knackered at the end some UK sportives than at the end of Marmottes.

This is relevant to this topic for a couple of reasons:
- While I think its important to have respect for an event like the Marmotte I think it is counter productive to over hype the toughness of the event. As I've said in some respects its easier than a UK sportive, yes there are massive climbs but there are also massive periods of recovery too.
- The key reason for finding the Marmotte much tougher than any UK sportive is because of a lack of preparation/training for the different nature of the event. As noted above this means training for long periods of hard steady effort (i.e. not like UK hills), thinking about how you will eat/drink and using equipment appropriate for the event.

I'd sum up my view by saying "don't be scared, be prepared".

Rodrego Hernandez

Don't want to split hairs but it is Trainingpeaks that calculates TSS. It isn't a measure, it is a calculation.

I guess that the toughness of an event is a purely personal subjective measure.

One could say that the first ride of the year after a month off and a big Christmas is harder than the Marmotte after 6 months training.

It's like comparing apples with pears.

You're dead right though - be prepared for whatever you are riding!

bahzob

Leroy42 wrote:

True, 25 miles TT or 50 miles TT will get you used to the sort of power and sustained work you will need to the climbs, but climbing is a very different experience than a TT.

In similar vein to my comment above I think its necessary to be a bit more precise about this. I would disagree that climbing is a "very" different experience than, say, a 25/50mile TT. Certainly not to the extent of being worried.

The key physical factor is identical. That is steady sustained well paced sub-threshold effort for 1-2 hours.Food needed will be pretty similar too. (Drink may be a bit different, not to many TTs take place nice sunny weather..)

In terms of the differences I'd say they were largely weighted in favour of making climbing easier. You can choose the most comfortable riding position and you can follow wheels if you fancy. The mountain is your enemy, far friendlier imo than the head/crosswind that you have to fight on many TTs And there is a real sense of accomplishment getting to the top of a mountain, that should spur you on. Much more so than in my experience compared to arriving at a lay-by on a busy dual carriage way back where you started..

grimpeur

Power is also calculation, a function of torque and cadence.

I personally think TSS, ATL and CTL are the most useful features of a power meter and they do indeed provide an objective way of assessing the overall training stress from evens. However what one must bear in mind is that the same training stress can arise from a variety of efforts. For example, a hilly British sportive is likely to be composed of short but extremely steep climbs coming quickly in succession whereas an Alpine sportive is likely to be several 1hr+ climbs in succession. The former can fatigue the legs just as much as the latter and contribute to the same overall stress.

Having ridden the Marmotte more than a few times I would rather climb the Glandon, Galibier and Alpe than do a British Sportive doing lots of 20% short sharp gradients.

As you say, at the end of the day they are very different events.

speshsteve

Blimey, we're all getting a bit serious aren't we?

I shall be doing a bit of cycling and running with the biggest hill to climb over the festive period being the monumental hang overs I fully anticipate to have each and every morning while I'm on leave

Then when spring arrives I shall read all the above comments, promptly crap myself and then do a few sportives as means of training...jobs a goodun.

Steve

Full Merckx

6 1/2 months to go. Festive cheer to all. And no I'm not training tomorrow

Full Merckx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldTVCqgTRh8

I really need to learn how to descend !
:evil:

hatone

Having entered, I've put on a handy 5.5 lbs over Xmas.... Still counting.. Ho hum.

Happy New Year!

steadyuk

Just received an email from morethan21bends who have 10 spaces for an entry only and accommodation package:

http://email.79nights.com/t/ViewEmail/r ... A886AB700A

Might be of interest to those that missed out on direct entry

Looking forward to my last beers tonight 'til 7/7/12.

twotyred

I really need to learn how to descend !

So does the bloke who did the video. It can be done a bit faster than that.

dru

steadyuk wrote:

Just received an email from morethan21bends who have 10 spaces for an entry only and accommodation package:

http://email.79nights.com/t/ViewEmail/r ... A886AB700A

Might be of interest to those that missed out on direct entry

Looking forward to my last beers tonight 'til 7/7/12.

Thanks for the link, but for £550 for an entry its a bit OTT.
The original plan for me was to pay the £80 entry fee and camp for £120 (for the week)

Still, some people will see this as a good deal for them and good luck for them with what will be a fantastic day in the Alps

gsk82

i paid less than that for the marmotte with 4 days half board at ventoux beforehand and all airport transfers. bit of a silly price, espicially if there's more than one of you so you don't want a room each

Full Merckx

Having never cycled in the Alps (and have no opportunity to do so before the event) I'm a wee bit apprehensive. Have done Sa Colabra and Tabayesco, how do they compare ?

alan_a

Have a gander at this for Mallorca climb v Alpe D

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... linearplus

As for Lanza, average gradient for Tabayesco is only 5.5%, whilst the length is only 6km. When I did it with you a couple of years back it only took about half an hour. So - with the exception of the heat - it's not that much more difficult than the Crow Road. ;-)

Alongside the heat, the big thing about the climbs we have facing us on Marmotte is the length of climbs as opposed to the gradients of the climbs. 1 climb will be 4 times as long as anything you have previously climbed, however the gradients are easier than Glen Quaich / Ben Lawers etc since you don't get the massive sudden changes in gradient that are customary here. Simple case of keep spinning / grinding.

richa

Full Merckx wrote:

Having never cycled in the Alps (and have no opportunity to do so before the event) I'm a wee bit apprehensive.

On a first trip to the Alps it is the descents that are likely to be the biggest eye opener. Plenty of time/opportunities to train for the climbs. Marmotte, IMO, is all about (i) Sustained Effort & (ii) Endurance.

Sustained Effort. Consider Glandon, Telegraphe, Galibier & AdH as 4 x 1-1.5hr efforts. Non-stop, evenly paced sub threshold efforts. Many consider Turbos the ideally training set up for mimicking this.

Endurance. Likely to be 9+ hrs in the saddle. Make sure that you have some long rides (club rides, sportives) under you belt.

spokegeezer

RichA wrote:

Full Merckx wrote:

Having never cycled in the Alps (and have no opportunity to do so before the event) I'm a wee bit apprehensive.

On a first trip to the Alps it is the descents that are likely to be the biggest eye opener. Plenty of time/opportunities to train for the climbs. Marmotte, IMO, is all about (i) Sustained Effort & (ii) Endurance.

Sustained Effort. Consider Glandon, Telegraphe, Galibier & AdH as 4 x 1-1.5hr efforts. Non-stop, evenly paced sub threshold efforts. Many consider Turbos the ideally training set up for mimicking this.

Endurance. Likely to be 9+ hrs in the saddle. Make sure that you have some long rides (club rides, sportives) under you belt.

Very true about the descents, I much prefereed going up the climbs to going down. The descent off the galibier is torterous at 45km and very demanding on your upper body, arm and wrist hand strength. Also, make sure you descend the Alpe before race day if your staying at the top, dont leave it till race day, you will be in shock otherwise. Training for climbing is easily done on a turbo, 90min sessions constant 200Watts ish if you around 10stone ish. GL.

twotyred

Very true about the descents, I much prefereed going up the climbs to going down.

I'm the complete opposite its all about the descents for me.

Don't worry about the descents. If you do you'll spend too much time on your brakes, heat your rims up and pop your tubes. Just relax and look well ahead- especially down and round the next hairpin to see what's coming up. Keep any manoeuvres gradual and don't swerve around. This will allow faster riders to pass you safely. At the corners brake purposefully and try to scrub off all the speed you need to before the corner. If you need to brake going through the corner then try to use the back brake as the front tyre is trying to steer. Point you hips where you want to go, the bike will follow your centre of mass and lean the bike not yourself.

Read this http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/descend.htm

The descent off the galibier is torterous at 45km and very demanding on your upper body, arm and wrist hand strength.

Agreed and I get a sore neck as well. There's the temptation to rest your hands on the hoods to try and relieve this but don't. You'll only reduce your control, reduce the force you can apply the brakes with and you run the risk of your hands bouncing off the bars if you hit a bump.

I've said this before but next to going to the Alps and practising on the real thing, do some mountain biking as this will improve your bike handling and confidence on descents.