Wiggins - Dark Horse

RichN95.

LeicesterLad wrote:

Like ive said, im not disrespecting Wiggins, i merely hold the opinion that he is not as good as some people on here like to blast on about, and for saying that im apparently trying to be cool by no supporting the Brits, but i cannot force myself to like somebody, british or not, thats insane! I think Wiggins is a BETTER than average rider, but i cannot comprehend comparing him to some of the folk people like to believe he is as good as on here...

I don't think anyone is trying to compare Wiggins to Indurain (or Evans even) in terms of ability or palmares, just that their style and approach to GTs is similar, which it is. Likewise, in football, you can say that Arsenal (or even Swansea City) play like Barcelona. In terms of tactics and philosophy, that's true, but no-one's going to say they are as good.

Wiggins is certainly more like Indurain or Evans than he is like Pantani or Contador. And that's where the comparisons come from.

edhornby

andyp wrote:

edhornby wrote:

Indurain won his tours with the assistance of a prologue, a big TT before the mountains and a TT before the last day so he could let the pure climbers go in the knowledge that he had a buffer (I remember watching big mig win his tours, they were dull - hang on, was miguel the first 'big' rider that Phil'n'Paul lavished the epithet to?)

You are forgetting the coup de grace that Indurain always applied on the first mountain stage, where he'd eliminate all but one or two of his rivals, then mark them for the remaining mountain stages, a tactic he employed in all of his Tour victories.

this is true (my recollection is hazy, I was a teenager at the time) - should be noted, he had the strongest team at the time and used it to his advantage, same as a texan that had a similar dominance

I wonder if any of those channel 4 hour retrospectives are on youtube? would be useful to prove the memory

LeicesterLad

inkyfingers wrote:

I must day that i'm impressed that you guys kept this civil, wish more posters could enjoy a discussion even when the disagree fundamentally.

I'm doing my best

dave_1

Will Wiggo have to do more hard surges to pursue attacks as a way into the jersey given that he won't really be wanting to appear to be launching overt attacks on mate and leader Froome? With the jersey on, Froome won't be told to set Wiggo friendly tempos that brought Wiggo back up to Martin & Roche, Nibali 2 days ago..can Wiggo do those jumps?

I remember Robert Millar commented in The Guardian after Wiggos TDF 2010 disappointment that Wiggo didn't look to have a jump, to climb out the seat when surges off steady tempo were needed to stay in touch. . which might mean Wiggo will have to go with surges when infact he is suited more to steady high tempo? Maybe it favours Froome more than Wiggo as he now has reserves to go with attacks rather the dual role of set tempos for Wigg + go with attacks

inkyfingers

I'm not a Sky hater, but think there's a real chance of them messing this great position up if they don't get their tactics right. Not that I have any idea what the right tactics should be, but then i'm not paid s much as Sky's DS!

iainf72

Oh how I love the "you hate him because he's British / you hate him because he's successful" strawman.

LeicesterLad

iainf72 wrote:

Oh how I love the "you hate him because he's British / you hate him because he's successful" strawman.

Its nothing to do with the fact that he's a hair thinning streak of P*ss, who THINKS he possesses the swagger of ''oh i'm Liam Gallagher and i've the Cool of Paul Wellar, with that oh so niche rock star anti-this anti-that i like to make comments to urinate on your bonfire attitude, which is all fake because actually im a dullard'', Nah, its not that, its just i don't really like him, and i don't think he has the X-Factor. Its a No From me.

LeicesterLad

LeicesterLad wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Oh how I love the "you hate him because he's British / you hate him because he's successful" strawman.

Its nothing to do with the fact that he's a hair thinning streak of P*ss, who THINKS he possesses the swagger of ''oh i'm Liam Gallagher and i've the Cool of Paul Wellar, with that oh so niche rock star anti-this anti-that i like to make comments to urinate on your bonfire attitude, which is all fake because actually im a dullard'', Nah, its not that, its just i don't really like him, and i don't think he has the X-Factor. Its a No From me.

P.S i don't know him, im sure he's a nice enough bloke in reality. Just this thread has got my goat

rick_chasey

Fans in arbitrary reasons for supporting athlete shocker.

oldwelshman

Dave_1 wrote:

Will Wiggo have to do more hard surges to pursue attacks as a way into the jersey given that he won't really be wanting to appear to be launching overt attacks on mate and leader Froome? With the jersey on, Froome won't be told to set Wiggo friendly tempos that brought Wiggo back up to Martin & Roche, Nibali 2 days ago..can Wiggo do those jumps?

I remember Robert Millar commented in The Guardian after Wiggos TDF 2010 disappointment that Wiggo didn't look to have a jump, to climb out the seat when surges off steady tempo were needed to stay in touch. . which might mean Wiggo will have to go with surges when infact he is suited more to steady high tempo? Maybe it favours Froome more than Wiggo as he now has reserves to go with attacks rather the dual role of set tempos for Wigg + go with attacks

Why does everyone go on about Wiggos lack of a kick on a hill?
Ok it is better ifhe has some one with him to set tempo but if he is alone and some one kicks then so what? Most riders generally slow down after their kick as they cannot maintain that pace so Wiggo is well capable of setting his own tempo and either grind them down or limit losses. There are not taht many who would gain massive time against him by attacking. Thats why Nibali blew the other day, he is attacking rider but when he got to MArtin and did a kilo or two he was cooked after that. So I am not sure the main contendors will want to try that tactic in such heat.

oldwelshman

By the way do you think J Rod and Scarponi can drop Wiggo for the same amount of time they lost in one TT? I dont think so.
I would love to see Wigo win this tour, he may then get some of the credit he deserves.

jibberjim

oldwelshman wrote:

Why does everyone go on about Wiggos lack of a kick on a hill?

Because it matters! It doesn't seem to matter so much in the Vuelta this year as Wiggins has more than enough power to grind his way back to those who can get away. However against a stronger group of climbers then it does matter. If Schleck and Contador take a group away of Wiggins then it's not Nibali vs Wiggins it's a group against Wiggins solo and drafting is significant enough for that to matter.

He also struggles to put out his power on the very steep stuff, which is another place where he can be isolated from a group.

thamacdaddy

jibberjim wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Why does everyone go on about Wiggos lack of a kick on a hill?

Because it matters! It doesn't seem to matter so much in the Vuelta this year as Wiggins has more than enough power to grind his way back to those who can get away. However against a stronger group of climbers then it does matter. If Schleck and Contador take a group away of Wiggins then it's not Nibali vs Wiggins it's a group against Wiggins solo and drafting is significant enough for that to matter.

He also struggles to put out his power on the very steep stuff, which is another place where he can be isolated from a group.

I am not so sure how true this is anymore. Cadel is a simular climber although he does have a burst of power but you saw in the tour this year even when climbers launched they were often reeled back in by those "following the numbers" on their power meter. How often do you see a group actually stick wih contador and schleck? When a group can stick then as ventoux proved Wiggo is more than capable of keeping with them or limit his loses. This season more than any other is showing cycling is changing and we can't judge riders on whether they can blast it up mountains ala lance and pantani. There are very few top contenders now who can do a contador and schleck effort.

Climbers like rodriquez etc are going to lose so much time on other stages to riders like Wiggins etc that it's almost immaterial they can hit the really steep stuff better than anyone else (unless they can gap by 3-5 mins a time).

Climbs in TdF are also less in sharp gradients than vuelta and giro so I think it's fair enough for everyone not to write off wiggo anything but a top ten contender in any grand tour. It will be interesting to see how today and the steep stages play out now for sure.

tremayne

I think today will be an absolutely fascinating stage. Whether we get fireworks - I doubt it, but loads of theories on how SKY should play things and I'm just so keen to see it pan out.

Pressure must now be on Nibs (for example) to attack the red jersey. Perhaps a good opportunity for Wiggins to land the counterpunch?

Echoing earlier comments - huge divide in opinion and nice that we haven't (yet!) resorted to insults!!

cal_stewart

as tremayne says I'll be watching todays stage to see what happens. If you look at it in a ptp way I find GT easy after the first week and my record is not to bad if you don't take my overall pick into account. However with the ToS this year picking a top 3 rider on a mtn stage is a bit of a problem

oldwelshman

jibberjim wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Why does everyone go on about Wiggos lack of a kick on a hill?

Because it matters! It doesn't seem to matter so much in the Vuelta this year as Wiggins has more than enough power to grind his way back to those who can get away. However against a stronger group of climbers then it does matter. If Schleck and Contador take a group away of Wiggins then it's not Nibali vs Wiggins it's a group against Wiggins solo and drafting is significant enough for that to matter.

He also struggles to put out his power on the very steep stuff, which is another place where he can be isolated from a group.

First point is that Contador and Shek are not in this race, also there are not many that can go with them even as they would tend to kick in last 3k of climb and most guys would strugglewith that kick.
Also drafting does not come into it at all on steepclimbs as there is absolutely no physical benefit drafting on a steep climb unless into a 30mph block headwind it is more of a mental benefit being in group at that stage.

Monty Zoncolan

Great discussion in the posts above.

I think also the cumulative effect of successive mountain days can play its part and has to be reckoned with - affecting riders in different ways. We saw Contador strong one day, flagging the next. Similarly Schleck's heroic (!) bid for glory arguably resulted in him being weaker the following day.

thegreatdivide

Get that up you! :P

LeicesterLad

Must say, ive only seen the ITV highlights so havn't seen the full picture, BUT...Good ride for Wiggins today, his pace breaking some familiar faces on that last climb, helped well by Froome. I appreciate the Wiggins of Stage 9 and 11 a little more than the wiggins of 2007-mid 2011. I Don't love him, i never will, i think if he had tried this in the TdF it would have gone un-noticed and quashed pretty quickly, if he had just a little bit more of an attack, an out the saddle attack, and a killer instict he would be superb, but take nothing away from wiggins, it was a VERY strong ride in the hills today.

avoidingmyphd

LeicesterLad wrote:

n the hills

I'm pretty sure that 19km at 6% average counts as a mountain.

tremayne

L-Lad we'll make a fan-boy of you yet

Chuckle now - but next week you'll have teamskyfanboy.com as your bookmark

But seriously - totally agree. VERY strong ride from Wiggins and Froome today.

Bring it on!

(nice to be able to carried away - supporting a brit in cycling. Cav aside - doesn't happen often)

Crankbrother

Wait until the angliru ... that'll be the climber's TT ... and stages like that take more than an hour of effort ...

Nibali is likely riding into the race ... Wiggins/SKY seem to be firing all their bullets at the half way stage ...

morstar

Crankbrother wrote:

Wiggins/SKY seem to be firing all their bullets at the half way stage ...

Or maybe riding to their strengths!!!???

Taking time where they can. What else are they supposed to do? Just realise that they're not suited to the angliru and just give up and go home.

Sheesh.

No_Ta_Doctor

morstar wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

Wiggins/SKY seem to be firing all their bullets at the half way stage ...

Or maybe riding to their strengths!!!???

Taking time where they can. What else are they supposed to do? Just realise that they're not suited to the angliru and just give up and go home.

Sheesh.

Obviously the y should have waited for the top secret second TT, after the mountains, to make their gains.

smithy21

Crankbrother wrote:

Wait until the angliru ... that'll be the climber's TT ... and stages like that take more than an hour of effort ...

Nibali is likely riding into the race ... Wiggins/SKY seem to be firing all their bullets at the half way stage ...

He was doing more than that when Liquigas almost made a complete arse of a 4 v 1 situation after smashing the peloton to pieces on that descent. He also got up to Martin on stage 9 so I'm not buying that for a second.

Still think Nibs will probably win though..meh.

LeicesterLad

avoidingmyphd wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

n the hills

I'm pretty sure that 19km at 6% average counts as a mountain.

Mountains to Wiggo.

Hills to Contador


















Joke

dave_1

did anyone feel it wasn't fair of sky team to make Froome the sacraficial lamb yesterday? Froome is good enough to win the vuelta

tremayne

Had this conversation at work. Bottom line is that he's an employee and when it truly comes down to it, he either does what his manager tells him to do - or he 'goes rogue' (thinking a la badass breton badger)

But yep - a very tough conversation was probably had. However, not like it should have surprised him. There's also the sponsors to satisfy and all connected to SKY will have been banking on Wiggins. Who knows, they may have even promised Froome something juicy for next year. Either way - whatever was said, clearly worked a treat. His inner badger was most definitely in its cage!

iainf72

I doubt it was a tough conversation. Froome would've known his role, and should have been happy to perform that role.

Seriously, would people expect someone with no record in grand tours to be protected by someone who was 3'rd in the race AND had finished top 5 in the Tour? Seriously?

FJS

No, but Sky had a unique tactical advantage of working with two riders high up the GC, and they're throwing that away now. Both Wiggins and Froome are in a group of 10 or so riders still with a chance to win the Vuelta, and having 2 riders would be a huge advantage in the last week.

Maqnagement didn't really have a choice though. Prioritising Wiggins is logical, and he needs a steady pace up a mountain. Deciding to let other teams do the work or let the pace slump would have been very dangerous. It is a result of a relatively weak team though; Lovkist was originally recruited as GC promise and TdF mountain support - if there is a tough conversation to be had that's where it is