Wiggins - Dark Horse

gsk82

Turfle wrote:

16simon wrote:

Ironic that after Wiggins' big effort yesterday it's Froome in the leader's jersey. He's obviously a talented rider but is looking more and more like he should be working for others on the road (as a super domestique, like Millar) and get his glory on the track.

how on earth is it looking more and more like that?

it isn't at all. but for some reason cyclists think saying they don't like sky or wiggins or cavendish makes them cool. maybe it does in cyling circles, but cycling is a sport for loners and the socially impaired.

16simon

eh - Isn't this a forum to discuss pro cycling?

I'm not knocking Wiggins - I think this is clear in my previous post - but watching yesterday's stage he reminded me of a super domestique setting a fast pace up the mountain to thin out the peloton.

Not everyone can be a leader - Wiggins doesn't seem to like the pressure that comes with this - and being a good super domestique is a well respected role.

iainf72

gsk82 wrote:

it isn't at all. but for some reason cyclists think saying they don't like sky or wiggins or cavendish makes them cool. maybe it does in cyling circles, but cycling is a sport for loners and the socially impaired.

I don't like any of them but looking "cool" has never come into it. Or is that just because I don't realise it....

Turfle

16simon wrote:

eh - Isn't this a forum to discuss pro cycling?

I'm not knocking Wiggins - I think this is clear in my previous post - but watching yesterday's stage he reminded me of a super domestique setting a fast pace up the mountain to thin out the peloton.

Not everyone can be a leader - Wiggins doesn't seem to like the pressure that comes with this - and being a good super domestique is a well respected role.

I don't understand the reasoning that being probably the strongest man on the mountain makes him better suited to be a helper. Is Cadel Evans better suited to help because he got on the front and hammered it up the Galibier?

Anyone who in the same season finishes 3rd at Paris-Nice, wins the Dauphine, and is sitting in a podium spot after 10 days of a grand tour is quite well suited to be a leader.

16simon

Well, Cadel has a better grand Tour record than Wiggins....

I just think that Sky is doing such a good job developing talented young riders (Thomas, EBH) that Wiggins is soon going to have some serious competition for his leadership role and would be better used in other ways. I wonder if he'll work for Froome in the Vuleta - I can see him doing some valuable work for him.

Of course, Froome might just be looking after the jersey for a few days to give him the experience and to take the pressure off Wiggins.....

cal_stewart

looks to me that sky are developing wiggo as well

Turfle

Cadel has a better record, yet he did the same thing Wiggins did. They both did what a leader should do when they've got the legs: reward the hard work of their domestiques.

EBH and Thomas should have completely different goals to Wiggins. The only rider they have to challenge Wiggins for grand tour leadership is Uran, and he still has to show he can last 3 weeks. Kennaugh is a number of years away.

He definitely shouldn't work for Froome in this Vuelta. Froome has a long, long history of very bad days. He's riding out of his skin at the moment, and should do as little as work as possible, but Wiggins ride for him? Not at this point.

LeicesterLad

gsk82 wrote:

Turfle wrote:

16simon wrote:

Ironic that after Wiggins' big effort yesterday it's Froome in the leader's jersey. He's obviously a talented rider but is looking more and more like he should be working for others on the road (as a super domestique, like Millar) and get his glory on the track.

how on earth is it looking more and more like that?

it isn't at all. but for some reason cyclists think saying they don't like sky or wiggins or cavendish makes them cool. maybe it does in cyling circles, but cycling is a sport for loners and the socially impaired.

Can't be that, because I cycle alone, and have zero friends interested remotely in cycling, so i have nobody to impress or be 'cool' to. I think its more that i don't support somebody for being from a certain country, David Cameron is English, but i think he is a tool, Ian Huntley is British, so should i support his call for early release? No, no, didn't think so. Sorry but blind patriotism is blind. fact is i DON'T like wiggins, but this is for one reason and one reason only, he doesn't float my boat, he is overated (road racing terms), i find him a dullfest to watch, and his personality is on a par with a plank of wood.


Don't mind Cav though.

gsk82

LeicesterLad wrote:

Ian Huntley is British, so should i support his call for early release? No, no, didn't think so.

that quote speaks for itself.

LeicesterLad

gsk82 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Ian Huntley is British, so should i support his call for early release? No, no, didn't think so.

that quote speaks for itself.

No mate, its just i get quite offended at the suggestion that i have to like/support anyone or anything that is Biritsh, especially considering we have a nack for producing second rate, average and boring athletes, and the moment i point out my dislikeing for anyone remotely british in any form of competative capacity i get accused of being Anti this or Anti that, it's bollacks basically, because i wouldn't feel the need to like an overated and boring musician, so why should i feel the need to like an overated and boring cyclist?

bigmat

16simon wrote:

eh - Isn't this a forum to discuss pro cycling?

I'm not knocking Wiggins - I think this is clear in my previous post - but watching yesterday's stage he reminded me of a super domestique setting a fast pace up the mountain to thin out the peloton.

He reminded me of Indurain...

On_What

LeicesterLad wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Ian Huntley is British, so should i support his call for early release? No, no, didn't think so.

that quote speaks for itself.

No mate, its just i get quite offended at the suggestion that i have to like/support anyone or anything that is Biritsh, especially considering we have a nack for producing second rate, average and boring athletes, and the moment i point out my dislikeing for anyone remotely british in any form of competative capacity i get accused of being Anti this or Anti that, it's bollacks basically, because i wouldn't feel the need to like an overated and boring musician, so why should i feel the need to like an overated and boring cyclist?

Can't see a reason to be offended? If you don't like it, you don't like it, but I am proud of the fact that Britain has two riders doing rather well in a major tour and get quite offended listening to people pointing out their failings and how "they won't hold on" when there is something to be proud of. Nothing like being miserable!!

iainf72

On_What wrote:

Can't see a reason to be offended? If you don't like it, you don't like it, but I am proud of the fact that Britain has two riders doing rather well in a major tour and get quite offended listening to people pointing out their failings and how "they won't hold on" when there is something to be proud of. Nothing like being miserable!!

I think what makes people get upiity is when the suggestion is people dislike Wiggins / Cavendish or Sky because they're "british", when that really has nothing to do with it in most cases.

ALaPlage

I do feel there is a British "disease" where we tend to (as a nation) start to rubbish our "heroes"/celebrities. It's almost a build up in the Press often before the failings are sought out and wizards become w****r's overnight.

Still if you support a team or individual because of national pride then there is nothing wrong in that. Equally if you support a team or individual because of their ability then there is nothing wrong with that either.

I also enjoy Football. I support the team local to where I was brought up and have done so through thick and thin for the last 40 years (mainly thin as we have only won one trophy in the teams history beating Bolton to win the Carling Cup although this did lead to a UEFA Cup Final appearance too - which we didn't win - those with a passing interest in Football I am sure will work out where my football allegiance lies!). But at Primary school there were plenty in my class who supported other teams and not automatically the team from where they may have originated from - plenty of Man Utd and Liverpool fans - some Leeds fans (early 70's success) and even a Hammers fan with no connections to London just because he admired the Players of the time - Moore, Hurst, Day, Curbishley, Brooking....

cal_stewart

Boro i've just been sick in my mouth

morstar

iainf72 wrote:

I think what makes people get upiity is when the suggestion is people dislike Wiggins / Cavendish or Sky because they're "british", when that really has nothing to do with it in most cases.

Now that's an interesting point. Is there a possibility though, that indirectly it is influenced by their being British? Generally we will see much more media exposure of the British riders and then begin to form opinions of them based on personality to a greater extent than we would do of another nationality.
X rider from a'n' other country could be a complete tool but is still loved because we're rarely exposed to that side of their personality. We just see a talented rider with occasional glimpses of their actual personality off the bike.
Brad and Mark both clearly have strong characters to which we are regularly exposed and this influences our opinions.

ALaPlage

morstar wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I think what makes people get upiity is when the suggestion is people dislike Wiggins / Cavendish or Sky because they're "british", when that really has nothing to do with it in most cases.

Now that's an interesting point. Is there a possibility though, that indirectly it is influenced by their being British? Generally we will see much more media exposure of the British riders and then begin to form opinions of them based on personality to a greater extent than we would do of another nationality.
X rider from a'n' other country could be a complete tool but is still loved because we're rarely exposed to that side of their personality. We just see a talented rider with occasional glimpses of their actual personality off the bike.
Brad and Mark both clearly have strong characters to which we are regularly exposed and this influences our opinions.

I think you make a very valid point. A work colleague with a very mild interest in cycle racing (more of a full on sports fan than a true fan) hated Cavendish with a passion. Always passing comment on him being an arrogant little git. I lent him my copy of Cav's biography which he did actually read. Changed his opinion completely and now he thinks he's the greatest cyclist in the world. When quizzed on his change of opinion he openly admits he had formed his view on a few things he had read in the press and interviews seen on tv however having read the book he had a completely different view now and actively defends Cav's "arrogance" as his winner mentality and clear focus.

rick_chasey

So far it looks like I'll be eating my words.

Then again, it's a long Vuelta...

Rick Chasey wrote:

He'll get pwned.

(I recon).

LeicesterLad

Rick Chasey wrote:

So far it looks like I'll be eating my words.

Then again, it's a long Vuelta...

Rick Chasey wrote:

He'll get pwned.

(I recon).

I don't think Wiggo gained nearly enough time in the TT to win the Vuelta, I think he may finish top 3, but not top.

rick_chasey

LeicesterLad wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So far it looks like I'll be eating my words.

Then again, it's a long Vuelta...

Rick Chasey wrote:

He'll get pwned.

(I recon).

I don't think Wiggo gained nearly enough time in the TT to win the Vuelta, I think he may finish top 3, but not top.

Top 3 isn't getting pwned though.

morstar

ALaPlage wrote:

I think you make a very valid point. A work colleague with a very mild interest in cycle racing (more of a full on sports fan than a true fan) hated Cavendish with a passion. Always passing comment on him being an arrogant little git. I lent him my copy of Cav's biography which he did actually read. Changed his opinion completely and now he thinks he's the greatest cyclist in the world. When quizzed on his change of opinion he openly admits he had formed his view on a few things he had read in the press and interviews seen on tv however having read the book he had a completely different view now and actively defends Cav's "arrogance" as his winner mentality and clear focus.

I suppose if people are judging riders (or other sports people) by their personalities then the reality is that a home star will always be held to higher standards than an overseas one.
There is something undeniably British about knocking success though.

LeicesterLad

morstar wrote:

ALaPlage wrote:

I think you make a very valid point. A work colleague with a very mild interest in cycle racing (more of a full on sports fan than a true fan) hated Cavendish with a passion. Always passing comment on him being an arrogant little git. I lent him my copy of Cav's biography which he did actually read. Changed his opinion completely and now he thinks he's the greatest cyclist in the world. When quizzed on his change of opinion he openly admits he had formed his view on a few things he had read in the press and interviews seen on tv however having read the book he had a completely different view now and actively defends Cav's "arrogance" as his winner mentality and clear focus.

I suppose if people are judging riders (or other sports people) by their personalities then the reality is that a home star will always be held to higher standards than an overseas one.
There is something undeniably British about knocking success though.

In a sense yes. But i don't consider Wiggins a Successful Road Cyclist. And its less his personality, more his style that i don't like. End of the day, each to their own, but im entitled to dislike somebody, even if they are British, without being called an Anti-patriot and. I appreciate talent, style, penache and individuality. This is what cycling is all about, its not football. That is all.

Turfle

LeicesterLad wrote:

In a sense yes. But i don't consider Wiggins a Successful Road Cyclist. And its less his personality, more his style that i don't like. End of the day, each to their own, but im entitled to dislike somebody, even if they are British, without being called an Anti-patriot and. I appreciate talent, style, penache and individuality. This is what cycling is all about, its not football. That is all.

4th Tour de France
1st Dauphine
3rd Paris-Nice
Giro stage win

A successful road cyclist.

rick_chasey

I think after this season it's very difficult to say he's not an excellent roadie.

The Dauphine and Paris Nice are, to sound like an infamous poster on here, heavyweight races.

ALaPlage

In a sense yes. But i don't consider Wiggins a Successful Road Cyclist. And its less his personality, more his style that i don't like. End of the day, each to their own, but im entitled to dislike somebody, even if they are British, without being called an Anti-patriot and. I appreciate talent, style, penache and individuality. This is what cycling is all about, its not football. That is all.[/quote]

You are entitled to your view although football fans who appreciate the aesthetics of the game may disagree with you

As you say "Each to their own" and whatever the rationale may be everyone has a reason for liking/disliking a team or an individual in all walks of life. I have to disagree with Wiggins not being a successful cyclist however as his palmares both on the track and the road is worthy of being recognised as a successful cyclist. Credit due and all that.

I agree with the style/panache element however as he doesn't stand out in the way he rides particularly albeit he has a nice flow to his cycling when on TT.

LeicesterLad

Turfle wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

In a sense yes. But i don't consider Wiggins a Successful Road Cyclist. And its less his personality, more his style that i don't like. End of the day, each to their own, but im entitled to dislike somebody, even if they are British, without being called an Anti-patriot and. I appreciate talent, style, penache and individuality. This is what cycling is all about, its not football. That is all.

4th Tour de France
1st Dauphine
3rd Paris-Nice
Giro stage win

A successful road cyclist.

yeah i see your point, to a degree, but even with those placings, i cannot put him alongside the GT winners of this world. He isn't one, and the day he is, it will be a very boring tour.

Turfle

He's still a newcomer to contending in big stage races, and to be fair he made the MTF pretty darn exciting on Sunday. If he wins the Vuelta on the back of racing like that there' s no way it will have been a dull GT.

LeicesterLad

Turfle wrote:

He's still a newcomer to contending in big stage races, and to be fair he made the MTF pretty darn exciting on Sunday. If he wins the Vuelta on the back of racing like that there' s no way it will have been a dull GT.

Well ill hold you to that, if he wins the Vuelta in similar fashion, ill concede defeat. But as it stands, to me, Wiggins just doesn't have that something that the really REALLY good riders have, that spark, that whatever it is. He's just much of a muchness. Obviously alot of you on here think he's the dogs Bollucks and fair play to you, like i said each to their own.

PocketRocket42

I sense so much negativity in your comments LeicesterLad that I had to commet.

If the tour was won by Bradley it wouldn't be boring it would be amazing.
But it hasn't happened yet so lets not dwell on it.

I have to confess to not being bothered who wins as long as it's not another drug cheat.

Most professional cyclist would be really happy with Bradley's career, and it's not over yet.

Of course if you want professional cycling to be really exciting you do have to get rid of the Two way radios in the mangers cars so they can't dish out the orders to riders, but that will never happen now.

Anyway Mr Froome is obviously the man to watch -- Bradley is just the smoke screen to the growing talent in the Sky team.

Turfle

I think most of us have no idea what to expect from him.

It just gets a bit tedious reading how poorly he's gonna do, only to be met with silence, minimising, or more predictions of future failure when he does do well.

It's funny, but the non-British anti-Wiggins crowd gave him way more credit on Sunday than the British anti-Wiggins crowd did. Says something I think.