Any London left?

rick_chasey

Sketchley wrote:

Has bugger all to do with money and jobs. Plenty of poor people I've met wouldn't dream of engaging civil disobedience, I've also met more than my fair share of rich people intent on violence in one form or another.

Of course it does. I can't think of a riot anywhere ever that hasn't originated in areas where there is a critical mass of unemployed or socio-economically disadvantaged.

You tend to get those critical masses in large scale urban poor communities, such as, Brixton, Tottenham etc.

It's genuinely no coincidence. Why are they not rioting in South West London?

I'm talking about people in the plural sense - communities, groups of people.

bails87

Ben6899 wrote:

And was someone from the ES there when all this happened? Or is their report based on witness reports? And who are these witnesses if that's that's the case?

I don't know, buy the ES and find out. The report may be based on insider info from the police. Or a leak of the IPCC findings. Or it might be lies. Like I said, salt.

Edit: My point is to not take one view as gospel at the cost of ignoring all others so soon after the event. Treat them all with a healthy level of suspicion.

Gazzaputt

Kicking off in Hackney.

Police just letting these scum smash windows and loot.

F*cking joke. Need tear gas and water cannons.

sketchley

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

Has bugger all to do with money and jobs. Plenty of poor people I've met wouldn't dream of engaging civil disobedience, I've also met more than my fair share of rich people intent on violence in one form or another.

Of course it does. I can't think of a riot anywhere ever that hasn't originated in areas where there is a critical mass of unemployed or socio-economically disadvantaged.

You tend to get those critical masses in large scale urban poor communities, such as, Brixton, Tottenham etc.

It's genuinely no coincidence. Why are they not rioting in South West London?

I'm talking about people in the plural sense - communities, groups of people.

Are you saying that if you don't have money and job then somehow your moral compass goes askew and you start rioting and looting? Are you suggesting that the lack of jobs and money make rioting and looting acceptable? Maybe the kind of person that is prone to rioting is not very employable. Maybe they have short fuses and snap at management or cannot handle authority. Maybe the attitude that was shown in the blackberry message earlier stating everybody else has theirs, now it's time to get mine doesn't translate well in corporate structure.This isn't about jobs and money it's about the person, it may well be the case that that kind of person that riots is likely to not have a job or money, but it does not follow that you become that person through lack of both.

Maybe some of the rioting and looting across London last night was carried out by better off criminals and yobs knowing full well the poor and disaffected communities would get blamed. Have you considered that? Stories of people turning up in cars at Currys and loading them up are rife in the media, how many unemployed people in London can afford to run a car?

It's not as simple as money / no money or job / no job. There are plenty of poor, unemployed people in Tottenham who would not dream of rioting and looting, I used to live there and I've met them. Kind good people who would help you out if you were in trouble, even if they couldn't afford it. Equally there are plenty of middle and upper class people that like nothing more than good scrap and would be off like a shot to join in and wouldn't stop to help if you were in trouble.

rick_chasey

Apparently it kicked off in Hackney after a stop and search operation.

Ben6899

bails87 wrote:

Edit: My point is to not take one view as gospel at the cost of ignoring all others so soon after the event. Treat them all with a healthy level of suspicion.

I agree. But this still doesn't stop me putting more faith in one person's report than another.

notsoblue

Sketchley wrote:

It's not as simple as money / no money or job / no job. There are plenty of poor, unemployed people in Tottenham who would not dream of rioting and looting, I used to live there and I've met them. Kind good people who would help you out if you were in trouble, even if they couldn't afford it. Equally there are plenty of middle and upper class people that like nothing more than good scrap and would be off like a shot to join in and wouldn't stop to help if you were in trouble.

Where does this happen though?

alan_sherman

When will things tip and the rest of teh local community go after the 'rioters' with a bit of 2x4?

rick_chasey

Sketchley wrote:

[

Are you saying that if you don't have money and job then somehow your moral compass goes askew and you start rioting and looting? Are you suggesting that the lack of jobs and money make rioting and looting acceptable? Maybe the kind of person that is prone to rioting is not very employable. Maybe they have short fuses and snap at management or cannot handle authority. Maybe the attitude that was shown in the blackberry message earlier stating everybody else has theirs, now it's time to get mine doesn't translate well in corporate structure.This isn't about jobs and money it's about the person, it may well be the case that that kind of person that riots is likely to not have a job or money, but it does not follow that you become that person through lack of both.

Maybe some of the rioting and looting across London last night was carried out by better off criminals and yobs knowing full well the poor and disaffected communities would get blamed. Have you considered that? Stories of people turning up in cars at Currys and loading them up are rife in the media, how many unemployed people in London can afford to run a car?

It's not as simple as money / no money or job / no job. There are plenty of poor, unemployed people in Tottenham who would not dream of rioting and looting, I used to live there and I've met them. Kind good people who would help you out if you were in trouble, even if they couldn't afford it. Equally there are plenty of middle and upper class people that like nothing more than good scrap and would be off like a shot to join in and wouldn't stop to help if you were in trouble.

Oh c'mon...

Look. I'm not saying anything about anyone individually. I'm sure there are people who would never riot. I'm not saying anything you're accusing me of saying.

It's this. It's a fact, as much as you can get a historical fact, that urban riots occur in significantly poor(er) areas, especially areas which suffer from unusually high unemployment, and often areas with high levels of minority groups. They do not start in middle class, affluent areas.

Now, why do you think that is?

Is it because poorer people are just fundamentally worse people? Of course not. You know that, I know that. That's the kinda chat that makes me hate my work colleagues in the city, who just shout "chav scum, shoot 'em all", whether it's at riots or when I am meeting my mates in Haringay.

So what is it then?

mrc1

Rick Chasey wrote:

whether it's at riots or when I am meeting my mates in Haringay.

Trust they are at the Highgate end of the Borough?

sketchley

I think we are arguing the same point. That is being poor doesn't make you bad.

Where we disagree is that you are stating that as it doesn't happen in affluent areas the conclusion from the point above is that it must be good people rioting because they having been driven to it by the environment they are in. My assertion is that it is bad people rioting and that fact they happen to be concentrated in a poor area is secondary to this and not the cause.

I'm sure the truth actually lies between the two.

rick_chasey

mrc1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

whether it's at riots or when I am meeting my mates in Haringay.

Trust they are at the Highgate end of the Borough?

They're post-grad students. Right next to to Harringay station...

jzed

The f*ckers are mentioning Clapham Junction getting attacked tonight. My car is coming in off the street.

mrc1

Rick Chasey wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

whether it's at riots or when I am meeting my mates in Haringay.

Trust they are at the Highgate end of the Borough?

They're post-grad students. Right next to to Harringay station...

Perfectly illustrates the point that it is a very diverse borough!

rick_chasey

Sketchley wrote:

I think we are arguing the same point. That is being poor doesn't make you bad.

Where we disagree is that you are stating that as it doesn't happen in affluent areas the conclusion from the point above is that it must be good people rioting because they having been driven to it by the environment they are in. My assertion is that it is bad people rioting and that fact they happen to be concentrated in a poor area is secondary to this and not the cause.

I'm sure the truth actually lies between the two.

You make moral judgements about whether people are good or bad.

I think anyone is capable of doing anything, given the necessary circumstances. I don't judge the people for rioting, and I don't judge the people who don't. I see it happening and figure that community has some serious problems - serious enough that they are rioting.

I also see their anger against the police, and, coupled with the experience I explained before, figure they also have problems.

Who knows how I'd end up if I was brought up differently and was exposed to different socio-economic circumstances?

rick_chasey

mrc1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

whether it's at riots or when I am meeting my mates in Haringay.

Trust they are at the Highgate end of the Borough?

They're post-grad students. Right next to to Harringay station...

Perfectly illustrates the point that it is a very diverse borough!

What, that they live in the poor bit?

dilemna

Attacking buses and MacDs in Lewisham now plus looks like there will be riots in Hackney.

Time to get the Army on the streets. The Home Sec to impose curfews and allow the army to shoot anyone on sight who is endulging in riot, civil unrest, thieving or general anarchy. I wonder if Cleggers has the balls? Teresa May might.

What an advert for Britain with the Olympics next year! The people doing this are anarchist thugs and thieves they deserve to be shot. They are not protestors or demonstrators. The Chinese or Saudis wouldn't have any qualms shooting them so why do we as they threatening the fabric of our society.

Read Memoirs of a Survivor by Doris Lessing which is about the fall of society into anarchy.

Gazzaputt

Agree Police seem to have lost control.

Stronger action now required.

garnett

Tense in Walworth. Some yuts kicking in some store doors as we came down the street, hesitated about taking pictures then remembered I had 2 torque wrenches in my bag. Feckers ran off before I could get any shots though. Utterly brazen.

Went back up the street to walk the wife home. All shops closed and everyone out on the street protecting their livelihoods.

Liberal hand-wringing about disadvantaged groups ignores the difference between those working hard to attain their goals, and those with an ingrained sense of entitlement to it all.

nich

Well I picked a good day to have off. My route (lewisham) would have been hampered by these youths.

I've noticed the BBC travel camera's are not showing anything now 'due to operational reasons'.

rubertoe

plenty of yoofs on bikes - wonder where they nicked them from?

deptfordmarmoset

nich wrote:

Well I picked a good day to have off. My route (lewisham) would have been hampered by these youths.

I've noticed the BBC travel camera's are not showing anything now 'due to operational reasons'.

Their helicopter needed refuelling but it's over Lewisham right now. There's no traffic getting through on the A21.

And there's a couple of vehicles burning on Albion Way off Lewisham High Street.

dilemna

rubertoe wrote:

plenty of yoofs on bikes - wonder where they nicked them from?

Halfords might be our saviour yet, if as they are renouned for, they didn't assemble them properly as the thieving thugs might then end up mortally injured when the wheels fall off or the back to front forks cause them to crash.

nich

I just heard on the BBC that bikes were being taken from people, so we better be on guard :?

Applespider

I changed route to avoid Brixton this morning and decided to head home via Peckham and nip to Persopolis. At Camberwell, three police vans went screaming past in the direction of Peckham so I decided to abandon plans and head home. Just as well since apparently there's a bus on fire on what would have been my route.

I'm slightly dubious of the idea that a 'Stop and Search' is what kicked it off in Hackney. We had an email round the offices at 3ish to warn us that there were some key areas that would kick off tonight from various intelligence sources. The original demo and subsequent violence in Tottenham was understandable although the violence was still inexcusable. But the rest of it is organised thuggery which is just moronic.

garnett

Really confused by C4 news.

They were very eager to tell us the rioters were "white, middle aged, all sorts", then they interviewed a "random" rioter, who just happened to be white, in front of a backdrop of 10s of rioters, 2 of whom were white.

Then they started talking like other have here, about how the rioters are not responsible for their actions, that it's all the fault of the wider society. We've let down these communities. To talk about that they had a black spokesperson talking specifically about "black communities".

What should we take away from all this? Presumably that it's only the white rioters who we should castigate.

At least that reduces the number of police targets by a factor of 10...

Racism, even if it is "positive" doesn't help at all.

SimonAH

+2

nich

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

Sigh

deptfordmarmoset

Applespider wrote:

I changed route to avoid Brixton this morning and decided to head home via Peckham and nip to Persopolis. At Camberwell, three police vans went screaming past in the direction of Peckham so I decided to abandon plans and head home. Just as well since apparently there's a bus on fire on what would have been my route.

This building ( http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Greggs,+R ... 36,,0,7.79 ) in Rye Lane is currently on fire and it's spreading. Baby linen!!!!

Wallace1492

Pulls up a chair, opens a beer and sits down for a night of live rioting....

Maybe its just practice for some new Olympic events for next year - the Mens 4x4 burning, the 400 meters with a TV, syncronised bin burning.