Any London left?

Ben6899

At the end of the day, this all kicked off because the Met shot dead a bloke waving a firearm at them.

What else do we expect here? He wasn't exactly carrying the gun so he could stir his next cup of tea. The Met can't win, to be honest. If they hadn't shot him and then he had gone on to shoot someone else, then we would all be asking why he wasn't dealt with more efficiently.

And then there's the ol' race-relations debate which is a political minefield in itself. Yes, I don't doubt for a minute that black/mixed race/Asian/purple/etc lads are targeted by SOME officers, but how easy can it be having that allegation thrown in your face if you're a straight copper with a genuine concern over the actions of someone who happens to be black/mixed race/Asian/purple/etc? Not easy at all. And thoroughly frustrating.

What an absolute fuck1ng mess: this country, these riots, Met public relations, people throwing false allegations around for their own protection and betterment.

jzed

bails87 wrote:

Tony Blair caused the LA riots in 1992? How interesting.

There's many causes for all sorts of things. However, one thing that seems to be prevelent in todays society is people expecting handouts and an easy ride.

Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed and together with police discontent (with there being no immediate answers for what happened), together with anarchists who just want a riot, a riot pursued.

Then a group from Brixton saw the news, people breaking in to shops and getting TV's and though, I want a bit of that, lets go and do some looting.

gtvlusso

bails87 wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

bails87 wrote:

But we've already had the initial version of events where there was an exchange of fire between someone in the cab and the officers. If that turns out to not be true (I'm not saying it;s false, it could be that the deceased was firing police issue bullets at the police, stolen, illegally bought or homemade) then it's yet another case of the police lying in the immediate aftermath of them killing/wounding a member of the public*.

The police can't shoot people without good reason, maybe they had it, in which case, fine.

Again - in full context as above;

In which case, where are the Police lying, what statement? And what are you arguing about? I am a bit lost with your line of thought. Are you saying that the Police have lied to the public on this very new investigation - already?

My point was that originally we were told that:
1-Police stop car
2-Someone in car shoots at police
3-Police officer is hit by bullet from inside car
4-Police return fire
5-Mark Dugan is shot dead by police

As I said if that turns out not to be true, then it will be a case of the police lying. I did say "if".

I also said that if they had good reason to shoot then that was fine.

So, again, where did I say that the police should not shoot back at a suspect who's shooting at them?

Ah - thats okay, I get you now. Thought you were supporting the rioters for a minute there, i.e. conjecture and rumour makes it okay to riot!

sketchley

richVSrich wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

.....
On another note sirens are going off a lot around Old Street this afternoon.....

not more than normal right?

there was a few this morning, but nothing around lunch time?

apparently twitter is going berserk and that's how they're "organising" ... somewhere else tonight?

I'm noticing them more than normal.

bails87

Ben6899 wrote:

At the end of the day, this all kicked off because the Met shot dead a bloke waving a firearm at them.

Seeing as you were an eyewitness to the shooting I assume you've already spoken to the police and IPCC to give them your version of events?

rubertoe

My Girlfriend just emailed me the following.

Just to let you know mums just been on the phone. Apparently these knobheads that have be rioting in Tottenham/Enfield over the weekend are heading to Barnet/Cockfosters to kick off. Sainsburys are closing now but not sure what the other shops are doing, hopefully it will come to nothing but obviously you need to be aware as you are coming home and maybe head a different way if needs be! All fun and games, I’ll let you know if I hear anything else in the mean time Rubbertoe.


So much scare mongering.

Coach H

OK, so I think we can all agree that the start point for the riots and looting was the Police shooting.

I’m not going to debate if there is a real link but it was the kick off point.

Now I am going to annoy some woolly jumper Liberals here but; if you give the Police guns, at some point they will shoot people with them FACT. Whether this is justified or not is not in question in my argument. If you give someone a tool don’t expect them not to use it and sometimes they will use it in a way you wouldn’t want them to.

So the only solution, to my mind, is for EVERY individual with feet on the ground in the UK to agree that when a Police Officer blows his whistle and wags his finger at you, you will stop doing whatever it is has caused this officer to blow his whistle. That way the Police will not need to have guns and they will not shoot anybody.

Expand this worldwide and everything turns to roses!! Surely no-one would stand against this.

The loss of any human live is a tragedy, but a lot of social commenter’s need to grow up or carry a Warrant Card for a while and see how difficult it is for these men and women to separate out the stereotypes and act without error in every case. What if 99% of the people you arrest and convict for burglary (for instance) are wearing a particular brand of check cap, what would YOU think about the 100th person you saw in said cap.

All I’m saying is don’t criticise any member of society from whatever class or circumstance unless you have been in their shoes.

I know this is the internet but really

daviesee

JZed wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Tony Blair caused the LA riots in 1992? How interesting.

There's many causes for all sorts of things. However, one thing that seems to be prevelent in todays society is people expecting handouts and an easy ride.

Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed and together with police discontent (with there being no immediate answers for what happened), together with anarchists who just want a riot, a riot pursued.

Then a group from Brixton saw the news, people breaking in to shops and getting TV's and though, I want a bit of that, lets go and do some looting.

The youths could do voluntary work to improve the community. Everybody wins.

Too obvious or too much effort? :?

notsoblue

JZed wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Tony Blair caused the LA riots in 1992? How interesting.

There's many causes for all sorts of things. However, one thing that seems to be prevelent in todays society is people expecting handouts and an easy ride.

Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed and together with police discontent (with there being no immediate answers for what happened), together with anarchists who just want a riot, a riot pursued.

Then a group from Brixton saw the news, people breaking in to shops and getting TV's and though, I want a bit of that, lets go and do some looting.

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

rubertoe

notsoblue wrote:

JZed wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Tony Blair caused the LA riots in 1992? How interesting.

There's many causes for all sorts of things. However, one thing that seems to be prevelent in todays society is people expecting handouts and an easy ride.

Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed and together with police discontent (with there being no immediate answers for what happened), together with anarchists who just want a riot, a riot pursued.

Then a group from Brixton saw the news, people breaking in to shops and getting TV's and though, I want a bit of that, lets go and do some looting.

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

isnt it a case of there is no smoke without fire?

squired

Nice "live" updates on here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -live.html

Based on some of the reports they are giving there could be quite a lot of activity in North london tonight. No doubt there will probably be a few people trying their luck in South London too. I know from local reports that a small number of thugs tried to turn over the Best Buy in Croydon, along with some of the more central stores, but presumably there weren't enough of them to do serious damage.

I wonder if anything is likely to happen elsewhere in the country?

The most telling comment on the above link is the one from 15.10, which shows a BBM that ends, "Riot starts at 10. F--- it, da rest of london is eating now its our turn. Let's go out and eat BIG. C u 2nite B-)".

So, now this is just about taking stuff because everyone else apparently has so much. I don't know about the rest of the people on here, of which the vast majority are presumably employed, but none of us are living the high life at the moment....

Coach H

JZed wrote:

........Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed ........

Didn't have much to do round where I grew up, but didn't get up to much rioting. Never mind the police reaction my Mum, Dad or Gran where the ones who's punishment scared me. So much so that I found things to do that were socially acceptable.

bails87

Coach H wrote:

JZed wrote:

........Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed ........

Didn't have much to do round where I grew up, but didn't get up to much rioting. Never mind the police reaction my Mum, Dad or Gran where the ones who's punishment scared me. So buch so that I found things to do that were socially acceptable.

Coach H wrote:

All I’m saying is don’t criticise any member of society from whatever class or circumstance unless you have been in their shoes.

Gussio

squired wrote:

Nice "live" updates on here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -live.html

Good, but depressing link - thanks for posting. The comments sections is disturbing, with the moderators struggling to keep up it seems....

jzed

notsoblue wrote:

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

I struggle with this NSB. My background is poor family/poor estate/poor town. Wasn't an inner-city ghetto so perhaps that makes a big difference.

Does seem that a lot of these "poor" youth have a remarkable way of finding Nike trainers, trackies etc. Would have loved some Nike as a kid - had to settle for Gola and Hi-tec. Maybe I should have gone looting and torching stuff.

Lots of groups seem discontent at the moment. Not just at the police, transport workers, public sector workers, students, cyclists, motorists....

Gussio

All across the town, all across the night
Everybody's driving with full headlights
Black or white turn it on, face the new religion
Everybody's sitting 'round watching television!

London's burning with boredom now
London's burning dial 999

I'm up and down the Westway, in an' out the lights
What a great traffic system - it's so bright
I can't think of a better way to spend the night
Then speeding around underneath the yellow lights

London's burning with boredom now
London's burning dial 999

Now I'm in the subway and I'm looking for the flat
This one leads to this block, this one leads to that
The wind howls through the empty blocks looking for a home
I run through the empty stone because I'm all alone

London's burning with boredom now...
London's burning dial 999

notsoblue

rubertoe wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

isnt it a case of there is no smoke without fire?

Well I think thats generally what people think, which just makes things worse. I was just chatting to a mate of mine who has had hassle from the police since he was a teenager. And by hassle I mean things like a Met police deliberately walking into his path and then asking him to apologise, or being stopped and searched at a busy King's Cross station. At this point you're already thinking that must have some kind of history with the police, or his behaviour was dodgy in some way. So it would be a waste of time for me to defend his character by saying he's a pretty geeky law abiding guy, very aspirational with a good job. When I heard about his experiences with the police it sounded pretty crazy to me. By and large, in my dealings with them, I've only ever viewed them as helpful public servants. But I'd imagine that if I'd shared the same experience as my mate my attitude would be entirely different. There was a short period of time after 7/7 when I was stopped regularly while commuting through Paddington. I was sporting a bit of a fro at the time, and had a beard so I guess there was some profiling going on. They were always very apologetic and friendly as soon as they heard my accent and I didn't really think anything of it. But if your earliest memory of an encounter with the police is one of them abusing their authority for a petty power trip, then it will influence every other dealing you have with them.

I'd imagine that being stopped and searched at a busy railway station when you have done nothing wrong, after years of having negative experiences with the MET, would leave you feeling quite humiliated and indignant. And it turns out it does. Being questioned by police will of course cause passers by to assume you've done something wrong. After all, theres no smoke without fire.

Coach H

bails87 wrote:

Coach H wrote:

JZed wrote:

........Watching the local community being interviewed, it seemed to be a common message that the youth have nothing to do, funding for community projects has been removed ........

Didn't have much to do round where I grew up, but didn't get up to much rioting. Never mind the police reaction my Mum, Dad or Gran where the ones who's punishment scared me. So buch so that I found things to do that were socially acceptable.

Coach H wrote:

All I’m saying is don’t criticise any member of society from whatever class or circumstance unless you have been in their shoes.

By your wink I know you think I have dropped into my own trap but I meant to support it by saying that I have been stood in the shoes of someone with not much to do as a youth and it did not automatically mean that I fell into the catch all opinion stated.

Although I will grant you that on second reading I would have winked as well!

Ben6899

bails87 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

At the end of the day, this all kicked off because the Met shot dead a bloke waving a firearm at them.

Seeing as you were an eyewitness to the shooting I assume you've already spoken to the police and IPCC to give them your version of events?

I am afraid all I have to go at are the reports. Given it's a choice between those from the police or those from a community that seems willing to riot at the drop of a hat and protect a gangster who carries an illegal weapon, then I will believe the police every day of the week.

rick_chasey

JZed wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

I struggle with this NSB. My background is poor family/poor estate/poor town. Wasn't an inner-city ghetto so perhaps that makes a big difference.

Does seem that a lot of these "poor" youth have a remarkable way of finding Nike trainers, trackies etc. Would have loved some Nike as a kid - had to settle for Gola and Hi-tec. Maybe I should have gone looting and torching stuff.

Lots of groups seem discontent at the moment. Not just at the police, transport workers, public sector workers, students, cyclists, motorists....

It's the economy (stupid). It always is. It always will be.

People with jobs to go to and money in their pockets don't really get properly angry at the world and they don't get involved in civil disobedience.

Coach H

notsoblue wrote:

.......Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

Has anyone considered that there may be discontent amongst the Police with regards the populace they have to police?

Just trying to get a balanced viewpoint.

bails87

Ben6899 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

At the end of the day, this all kicked off because the Met shot dead a bloke waving a firearm at them.

Seeing as you were an eyewitness to the shooting I assume you've already spoken to the police and IPCC to give them your version of events?

I am afraid all I have to go at are the reports. Given it's a choice between those from the police or those from a community that seems willing to riot at the drop of a hat and protect a gangster who carries an illegal weapon, then I will believe the police every day of the week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -live.html

15.54 The Evening Standard is reporting that Duggan might have been armed with a replica firearm which was incapable of firing. The gun was apparently found hidden in a sock

Like I said, taking the early claims with a bucket full of salt is always a good idea. The ES might be completely wrong, of course.

Coach H

Rick Chasey wrote:

People with jobs to go to and money in their pockets don't really get properly angry at the world and they don't get involved in civil disobedience.

That Bin Laden chap wasn't short of a few bob though and he seemed to be properly angry at the world!

Sorry posting like a Troll now and will stop

notsoblue

JZed wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

I struggle with this NSB. My background is poor family/poor estate/poor town. Wasn't an inner-city ghetto so perhaps that makes a big difference.

I think the key difference is the relationship of a whole social group with authority. In this case specifically with the police.

JZed wrote:

Does seem that a lot of these "poor" youth have a remarkable way of finding Nike trainers, trackies etc. Would have loved some Nike as a kid - had to settle for Gola and Hi-tec. Maybe I should have gone looting and torching stuff.

Lots of groups seem discontent at the moment. Not just at the police, transport workers, public sector workers, students, cyclists, motorists....

Yeah, everyone's moaning. I guess we're all just getting too sensitive. Not like the old days before internet forums and 24 hour news

sketchley

Rick Chasey wrote:

JZed wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Its a poverty of aspiration. I think you're giving young people too much credit if you're expecting them to behave like model citizens regardless of the conditions they grew up in. Or perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit?

Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

I struggle with this NSB. My background is poor family/poor estate/poor town. Wasn't an inner-city ghetto so perhaps that makes a big difference.

Does seem that a lot of these "poor" youth have a remarkable way of finding Nike trainers, trackies etc. Would have loved some Nike as a kid - had to settle for Gola and Hi-tec. Maybe I should have gone looting and torching stuff.

Lots of groups seem discontent at the moment. Not just at the police, transport workers, public sector workers, students, cyclists, motorists....

It's the economy (stupid). It always is. It always will be.

People with self respect and dignity don't really get properly angry at the world and they don't get involved in civil disobedience.

FTFY.

Has bugger all to do with money and jobs. Plenty of poor people I've met wouldn't dream of engaging civil disobedience, I've also met more than my fair share of rich people intent on violence in one form or another.

notsoblue

Coach H wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

.......Also, I think it would be wrong to underestimate just how much police discontent there is amongst some groups of people in London.

Has anyone considered that there may be discontent amongst the Police with regards the populace they have to police?

Just trying to get a balanced viewpoint.

Yeah, and thats probably a big chunk of the problem. I'd imagine my attitude to the police would be different if I was the object of reasonable suspicion due to the area I lived in or how I looked.

mrc1

bails87 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

At the end of the day, this all kicked off because the Met shot dead a bloke waving a firearm at them.

Seeing as you were an eyewitness to the shooting I assume you've already spoken to the police and IPCC to give them your version of events?

I am afraid all I have to go at are the reports. Given it's a choice between those from the police or those from a community that seems willing to riot at the drop of a hat and protect a gangster who carries an illegal weapon, then I will believe the police every day of the week.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -live.html

15.54 The Evening Standard is reporting that Duggan might have been armed with a replica firearm which was incapable of firing. The gun was apparently found hidden in a sock

Like I said, taking the early claims with a bucket full of salt is always a good idea. The ES might be completely wrong, of course.

There is very little point speculating until the proper report comes out. For all we know Duggan may have grappled with one of the policeman and taken control of one of their weapons or the police may well have shot him without clear justification.

Hopefully the use of the word "might" in the above quote has some evidence to back it up....

notsoblue

Sketchley wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

People with self respect and dignity don't really get properly angry at the world and they don't get involved in civil disobedience.

FTFY.

Has bugger all to do with money and jobs. Plenty of poor people I've met wouldn't dream of engaging civil disobedience, I've also met more than my fair share of rich people intent on violence in one form or another.

I totally disagree with that. Money and employment have everything to do with self respect and dignity.

Indeed, I think membership in this society is validated by having enough money to support yourself and a job that allows you to contribute to the whole. If you're fully engaged in society and are reaping the benefits of that, then you're less likely to jeopardise it by civil disobedience. Why adhere to civilised rules if you have nothing to lose?

SimonAH

I'm all in favour of civil disobedience to change a policy, make a statement of discontent etc. Civil disobedience and rioting / looting is not the same thing.

Rioting is at best an atavistic act of revenge, at worst an excuse to rape, steal and burn. In most countries looters are shot - they may have a point.

Ben6899

And was someone from the ES there when all this happened? Or is their report based on witness reports? And who are these witnesses if that's that's the case?