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Motorised cycle discussion!

Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
edited October 2013 in The Crudcatcher
Thankfully there are other people having problems with the indexing of Sram X9 rear derailleurs, so i don't feel alone on this major issue.
My situation is as follows:

as of July 2011

Brand new X9 (9 speed) long cage derailleur
Brand new X0 9 speed grip shifter
Brand new Wipperman stainless steel 9 speed chain
Brand new Shimano 9 speed cassette - 11-34
Brand new derailleur hanger
Brand new X0 teflon cable
Brand new cable outers.

Ok, for the life of me i can't get this damn X9 derailleur to index properly.
It indexes perfectly on the small gears through to the 5th gear in the cogset, then it doesn't want to jump up the cassette on the next two cogs (using shifter indexing). After that, it's fine jumping up the last two largest cogs (using shifter indexing).
The B-tension screw is set to 6mm and i have acceptable chain tension.
If i use the adjustment screw on the X0 twist grip, so that the derailleur jumps up the two gears from the 5th gear, it will not index on the down change in 7th and 8th smallest gears.
I have bought a Park Tool Derailleur alignment gauge and the hanger is straight and in alignment.

This is driving me crazy. I just want this damn X9 derailleur to work, just plain and simple - i want it to work, just like a Shimano does!

My current setup:

Photos: http://motorizedbikesforum.the-talk.net ... setup-bike

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF-KO9g48PI

My email: [email protected]

Cheers to anyone who has any ideas
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Posts

  • BriggoBriggo Posts: 3,823
    The links are very helpful in diagnosing your problem....
  • johnsavjohnsav Posts: 775
    from the links in your post i must conclude that you are quite, quite mad and therefore unable to adjust the gears yourself.

    Sram stuff is a doddle to setup.
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Johnsav, your comments are not appropriate, as they do not add any information to my post.
    If i wanted your personal opinion on my character or ability to install or adjust a mechanical gear set, i would have asked for it.
    Considering my ability to engineer the setup in it's current form, my mechanical skills are proven.

    Contribute to this thread if you have useful information, otherwise, please refrain from comments not related to this subject.

    Fabian
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    what have the links got to do with anything?

    please explain.


    have you read the manual?

    have you set the 6mm gap?

    sounds like poor cable routing.

    PS post censored and you will be banned simples.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    RE: Nicklouse comments

    Ok, what do you think Nick.

    Do you think that i would post asking for solutions to a problem, if i have not read the instructions
    Do you think that i have not set the 6mm gap, when i clearly stated in my post that "I HAVE" set the 6mm gap
    Do you think it is poor cable routing when the SRAM system more or less does not allow for poor cable routing considering it is a direct line to mech system.
    Do you think i am a novice at setting up this hobby.

    My censored is your own personal opinion of my setup, and i have posted links to enable you to view, so i don't have to write a 3000 word essay describing the system, as people may need to know how the bike is constructed.

    I did not ask for your opinion on my character or my mechanical skills.

    I only asked for you to provide possible solutions to the indexing problem, and so far you have given nothing other than abrasive comment.

    If you do not have anything meaningful to contribute to this thread, please refrain from adding vacuous content.

    Fabian
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Are the cables cut clean and flush? Do they run smooth? Are thery routed correctly, and the right length? Clamped correctly? They can be routed incorrectly ie the wrong way around the head tubes which adds friction.

    It does sound like a cable problem. Friction can stop the mech moving into the smaller cogs under its own spring tension.
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Pleasant regards, Supersonic

    I thought the same thing - possibly when i used "Park Tool" cable cutters, it may have crushed the outer cable and given rise to sharp edges inside the cable.
    As it stands, the cable is an XTR teflon inner cable.
    To try and eliminate burr related friction, i placed a length of inner cable inside the outer cable, so it protruded from the other end, then taped the outer and inner cable together.
    Logic behind this action was to carefully sand about 1mm from the outer cable (with inner installed) on my 180 grit 6" disc sander.

    After doing so, i used compressed air (140 psi) and alcohol to blow out the outer cable from any steel or teflon dust that may be trapped within the teflon inner coating of the outer cable.
    This method was used on all three sections of outer cable.
    Following on with replacement of a new teflon cable and teflon oil applied to the inner cable, the system friction was exactly the same as before - no change.

    The cable routing remains exactly the same as per the original setup when i bought the bike with Shimano Deore components.

    I would appreciate if you could give me a tutorial on "correct cable routing"
    This would be massively appreciated, for it may very well eliminate a possible cause of inconsistent indexing.

    Many thanks
    Fabian
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    correct routing. well if we could see what you have done maybe we could comment.

    re your cutting and finishing of the cable. it sounds excessive and un needed.

    all you need is an awl yo open up the end after cutting and also after grinding if done.

    I suggest some reading
    http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-hel ... le-housing
    http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-hel ... ing-length
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    Fabian2 wrote:
    Do you think that i would post asking for solutions to a problem, if i have not read the instructions
    Yep, it happens here far more often than not
    Fabian2 wrote:
    Do you think that i have not set the 6mm gap, when i clearly stated in my post that "I HAVE" set the 6mm gap
    Yep, it happens here far more often than not.
    Fabian2 wrote:
    Do you think it is poor cable routing when the SRAM system more or less does not allow for poor cable routing considering it is a direct line to mech system.
    It doesn;t matter how the last bit of cable run is designed, you can still end up with bad cable routing on the rest of the bike somewhere. A system is only as strong as it's weakest link.
    Fabian2 wrote:
    Do you think i am a novice at setting up this hobby.
    I have no reason to suspect otherwise.
    Fabian2 wrote:
    so far you have given nothing other than abrasive comment.
    Likewise. There's a reason people ask questions to help solve issues.
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Ok, photos

    Where is the tab to upload and attach photos into this thread?
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    Upload them somewhere else, then link to them from here.
    It's all explained in the FAQs - which could be considered the forum manual. Makes for good reading (ahem)
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Otherwise i'll upload them to Flickr tomorrow, helpful too as i'll get back my high speed data allowance - restricted to 56k at the moment.[/img]
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Frustrating thing is my old Shimano Deore Rapid Rise (oh for the joy of rapid rise in my application) worked perfectly but the concept of trigger shifters is just garbage, more-so in a motorised application.

    If Shimano made a 9 speed Grip Shift, i would be sticking with my trusted rapid rise deore 9 speed derailleur.
    In saying Shimano forces me to switch camps and run SRAM shifting gear if i want to use a 9 speed grip shift system, of which a grip shift system is the best thing since sliced bread.

    When the indexing problem is solved i'll be a happy chappy - A SRAM happy chappy

    Fabian
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    I don't understand how Rapid rise, or twist shifters offer an advantage in your situation, to be honest. Having said that I don't see them as a DISadvantage either, just... different.
  • johnsavjohnsav Posts: 775
    Fabian2 wrote:
    Johnsav, your comments are not appropriate, as they do not add any information to my post.
    If i wanted your personal opinion on my character or ability to install or adjust a mechanical gear set, i would have asked for it.
    Considering my ability to engineer the setup in it's current form, my mechanical skills are proven.

    Contribute to this thread if you have useful information, otherwise, please refrain from comments not related to this subject.

    Fabian

    the only thing i can see proven is your quite odd attitude!
    I was joking, because your links are of no use whatsoever! Thus, rendering you quite, quite mad.
    And if you cant set gears up without being spoon fed, you are next to inept.
    Suggestion - lighten up - this is the internet :wink:
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Comes from the aspect of tactile response, particularly with a motorised application, and in saying this is largely in relation to such an application.

    With the vibration coming from the engine, you are not able to feel the indexing system making engagement with the ratcheting mechanism. The only method of knowing where the gears are, is through the trigger release mechanism as it uses spring loaded indexing when releasing cable, so eliminating the feeling of completely vague tactile response on manually loading the derailleur spring.

    My application requires rapid rise as shifting up gears requires time for throttle-off and throttle-on due to the large amount of freeplay in the three stage chain system, so not enabling time to try and fluff about finding the next gear when using a conventional "top normal" spring loaded system.

    Big advantage of grip shift is the ability to shift 4 or 5 gears in one hit.
    Cresting a hill, my gear changes are: 1st, 3rd and 9th - so simple and fast engagement on a grip shift.
    Typically though, only 4 gears are used when starting from a standstill - 1st, 3rd, 6th and 9th on the downshift and 9th, 5th and 2nd on the upshift.

    Fabian
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    edited July 2011
    RE: Johnsav

    What qualifies you to make the inference that i can't set up gears?
    What qualifies you to make the comment that i am inept?
    What qualifies you to make personal comment of my aptitude?

    Considering i placed this thread to try and solve a problem, after going through a process of elimination with components, what aspects of your comments of ineptitude and aptitude are valuable in this thread.

    Fabian
  • johnsavjohnsav Posts: 775
    RE: Fabian2
    CC: BikeRadar

    nicklouse suggested censored , not I - although I think he was onto something there...

    I just think you are ever so slightly insane.

    p.s. i read it :wink:
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    It is quite a bit odd. You must realise you're a little eccentric, surely?

    I'm baffled by this engine. I thought, from your first link, that this was meant to be carbon free - which surely is not the case if you have an engine.
    I think you may be surprised how efficient HGV engines are when you consider the amount of freight they carry.
    Considering how much can be moved in one go on a road train, and how many trips you'd need to perform using the bike-train, That warrants further investigation IMHO.
  • BriggoBriggo Posts: 3,823
    Well the links provide no help whatsoever as I said.

    The 9 speed Sram X9 derailleurs are known for not shifting correctly, the pivots on the mechanism get stuck very easily and cause this jolting in shifting until the spring finally pulls the mech to where it should be.

    Plenty of oiling and moving the pivots back and forth frees them up for a while before the oil disipates and its back to square one.

    I had to replace my X9 to an X0 due to this very same problem and never occured once since.
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    edited July 2011
    I have no interest in discourse on the perceived value of an engine, freight carried or trip count, but simply wishing to find solutions to the indexing problem.

    Yes Johnsav, it is with apologies that i messed up names in my previous reply so deleted the post.
    Considering i'm only wishing to find solutions or ideas to the indexing problem, it would be best for those who are on here, drifting off on an emotional tangent, to stay out of this thread.

    All information and solutions to the indexing problem are greatly appreciated. Name calling and insults are not appreciated, nor wanted.

    Fabian
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,692
    Fabian2 wrote:
    I have no interest in discourse on the perceived value of an engine, freight carried or trip count, but simply wishing to find solutions to the indexing problem.
    Well, I do. I didn't realise the internet was your own personal walled garden/plaything :?

    If this is how you respond to people who are curious, then I assure you, your business will never get off the ground.
  • johnsavjohnsav Posts: 775
    hahaha
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Hi Briggo

    I checked my X9 derailleur for the "known" sticking issues with X9 and X0, however my X9 derailleur is perfectly smooth in it's mechanical action, actually it's silky smooth.

    Fabian
  • BriggoBriggo Posts: 3,823
    It seems smooth until its put into practice.

    Moving it by hand will seem smooth, mine did too, like I said try oiling/lubricating the pivots then move the mech back and forth by hand to work it in and see if that works.

    Oh and it was only the X9's that did this, not the X0's.
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    My business is doing well. Currently in Australia we have a Labour government in power and they are held to ransom by the Greens party who have the balance of power, forcing their maniacal and plain loony ideas on the Australian economy.
    After July 1st next year, anyone will be able to get carbon tax credits and government grants for perceived low carbon schemes.
    Now when you are hauling plants (carbon sinks) using a low fuel consumption vehicle, perceived as environmentally friendly, the rewards are there to be taken.
    Everyone knows the Greens party will completely destroy the economy, but it will be good times for those who take advantage of it whilst it lasts.

    Anyway, this is way off-topic and not of any relevance to the subject matter.

    Fabian
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    Briggo, will try your method of working oil into the X9 pivot points.
    Possibly this could be a solution as the main problem is occurring on the upshift between 5th and 3rd gears. The action when on the upshift is: struggles to jump to 4th gear and when the indexing detent egages 3rd gear, the derailleur moves but most of the time the chain won't jump the gear. Clicking into second gear has the chain reliably jumping from 4th to 2nd gear with the single indexing movement from the 3rd gear detent ratchet.

    Seems like the system pulls into tension and the derailleur snaps up two gears.

    Fabian
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here
    so back to the start this has nothing to do with a bicycle?

    you are using this on some sort of motorised transport?

    Would not have bothered with X0 shifters.

    I still do not know why you did what you did to the outers or even why you lubed them as general advice with trfon coated wires is not to lube them as they are as slippy as they ever will be. yes after some time areas with a tight radius may lose their coating as some lighjt oil may help between cable changes.



    shift on the upshift you are talking about moving to the bigger sized cog?

    it will be a cable tension or routing problem as already said.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • Fabian2Fabian2 Posts: 113
    That is correct, the problem is shifting to a larger cog.
    I could understand cable routing or cable drag being the problem if cable was being released by the shifter mechanism and only spring tension from the rear derailleur is drawing cable through the system when moving to smaller cogs.

    The issue in this case is when moving the shifter with mechanical force against spring tension, shifting to a larger cog. Rotating the shifter will move a measured amount of cable as the torque applied by your hand is forcing an exact amount of cable to be pulled through the system.
    This is what's bugging me the most. The derailleur is seen to move in what appears to be the same distance from the previous shift but nothing happens.
    When looking rearwards the derailleur appears to be lined up underneath the next largest cog, though the chain is twisted by around 20 degrees, an amount that easily looks like it should shift to the next cog, but it doesn't. Yes, it's trying to catch on the next cog and very occasionally does shift, but it mostly just sits there on a twisted angle.

    There is no issue with downshifts - they are perfect from 1st to 9th gears, unless i wind out the tension screw on the X0 grip shifter. This has the upshifts working ok from 9th to 1st gears, but the downshifts are a bit fluffy from 1st to 3rd and useless from 7th through to 9th.
    Can't get a decent compromise in the system.

    Terribly, terribly frustrating, as the power from the engine is designed to run through the final drive system, incorporating the cassette, derailleur and 9 speed chain.
    Ghost shifting under power is simply not an option as it smashes the system to bits.

    Basically, i need the rear derailleur to index perfectly, every single time as engine power is being transferred through the cassette to the rear wheel, with pedal power also being added to the rear wheel.
    The strain on the rear mechanicals are enormous, yet it's amazing how reliable things have proven to be, unless you get a ghost shift and everything gets smashed to bits.

    So far i've only had one ghost shift and it's not something i want to repeat.

    Fabian
  • Hilleaoh. just to let you, one's old bean, knoh, one had ah load of trouble setting up one's x9 10sp. must try haaardah! Heavens above! How smashing!





    One ne'ah thought i'd have the opportunity to use this website. Oh stop it! You tease!
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