Giro Stage 2 Alba - Parma **spoiler**

iainf72

ddraver wrote:

Complete the following sentence:- ianf27 is to Lance Armstrong as cornoyemade is to ________

Steady. I probably dislike Cavendish more than Lance. I'd never wish ill on him though, because I'm an unpleasant enough person without resorting to that kind of thing.

Abdoujaparov

Anyone wonder why the UCI bothers publishing a rule book? It clearly states riders are strictly forbidden from deviating from their line in a sprint. It also mentions "and in doing so endangering others". Which you could argue petacchi didn't (although I'm not so sure). But if the uci meant that danger to be a necessary condition they'd have phrased the rule differently.

Basically, the conclusions are a) petacchi broke the "strict" rule b) the uci can't write a rule book c) comissaires ignore it.

If anyone can be bothered, I'd recommend a quick scan of the rules and you'll see that almost the majority aren't enforced.

What's the f*cking point?!

Crankbrother

The point?

The publicity caravan masquerading as sport that is pro cycling will be doing it's job a whole lot better with a sniff of controversy ... It's a better story for the bad guy to win and the plucky guy chasing to try again ... Why do you think American Wrestling (or Sports Entertainment if you'd rather) exists?

frenchfighter

Ale Jet is a legend for his sporting successes.

Good short article:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/petacch ... suspension

nikle

I used to dislike Cav when he first started riding as a Pro and came to the public eye, Thought he was a Rooney'esq figure we se hanging around every where; just my prejudice coming out.

But since the escapade with the winy Huassler last year at Tour de Suisse and the Vitriol displayed here and other forums (whereI lurk!) I started to warm to him and how exuberant he is when he wins - could be the real deal, not made in lab robot like others.

And I am saying this as some who could never win a third cat bike race gallop with an explosive sprint!!

shakey88

frenchfighter wrote:

Ale Jet is a legend for his sporting successes.

Good short article:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/petacch ... suspension

:roll: this snake has no shame and no class

rick_chasey

Pfft, trying to get an Italian bummed out of a stage win in the Giro? :?

This stuff happens aaall the time in sprinting. Sometimes it's in your favour, other times it's not.

Could be worse - it's been a long time I've seen a rider as hungry as Cavendish. Farrar could do with a bit of Cav's desire.

rick_chasey

Surprised to see so much rage. C'mon guys, it's racing in Italy!

If you want fairness and fair play in your sport, with the result to reflect who is best then cycling, (or indeed football) is not the right sport for you.

There's an article here which explains it (using football) perfectly. It's just as applicable to cycling.

It's largley an american phenomenon but I think it's applicable to most english speaking cycling fans too.

Abdoujaparov

The best rider often not winning is part of what makes cycling great. Makes it unpredictable and a load of variables makes it a layered sport you can get deeply involved in.

What I don't like though is the UCI. Not even in a 'love to hate' type way. And having a rule book that is ignored every race as a matter of course shows how amateurish and out of touch they are.

greasedscotsman

Great photos, just hope Eduard Vorganov wasn't too badly hurt!

P_Tucker

So lets get this straight:

Petacchi (obv) doesn't think he's done anything wrong
Cav (belatedly) doesn't think Petacchi did anything wrong
Farrar doesn't think Petacchi did anything wrong

Buy hey, you lot know best, right?

FJS

Just had time to look at the replays for the first time, and I don't know what people are talking about - it was a clean sprint - Petacchi moved over when ahead, and Cav didn't have to move an inch because of Petacchi move. Clean. Simple. Nothing wrong. Cav admitted so, and I don't think there was an ounce of irony in Hunter's twitter post.

iainf72

FJS wrote:

Just had time to look at the replays for the first time, and I don't know what people are talking about - it was a clean sprint - Petacchi moved over when ahead, and Cav didn't have to move an inch because of Petacchi move. Clean. Simple. Nothing wrong. Cav admitted so, and I don't think there was an ounce of irony in Hunter's twitter post.

^^^^
this

Tom Butcher

It's against the rules to deviate deliberately to block another rider - Petacchi did that at least twice in that sprint - that's clear from the overhead. For me that's a clear DQ - certainly in the last few years there have been riders DQed for less.

What Cav said and what he really thinks are likely to be two different things - you can see his true reaction straight after the finish - before he's had a chance to talk think through what would be the best in terms of PR.

mroli

Farrar is also quoted in Cyclingnews as saying Petacchi sprinted "in a dead straight line" and I think we all can see the flaws in that statement!

Fine - if Cav accepts it and the Commissaires have made their decision all well and good. I don't like Ale Jet because of his use of inhalers, but the way Hondo delivered him (better than Renshaw's delivery) and kept him out of trouble and the canny way Ale Jet finished him off was impressive.

Makes the sprints more interesting!

Abdoujaparov

The official UCI rule is:

"Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others."

Note also that this is one of the only rules they call "strict".

At no point have I said that Cav should be awarded the stage - these incidents happen all the time and it would be an unusual and controversial step. The point is that why does the UCI bother with a rule book when the commissaires themselves completely ignore it in every single race!

OffTheBackAdam

Has Vogonov's crash been explained? Eurosport only showed coverage from the camera bike following the break, touch of wheels? Looks very strange to get such a bunny hop before hitting the deck!

rick_chasey

Abdoujaparov wrote:

The official UCI rule is:

"Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others."

Note also that this is one of the only rules they call "strict".

At no point have I said that Cav should be awarded the stage - these incidents happen all the time and it would be an unusual and controversial step. The point is that why does the UCI bother with a rule book when the commissaires themselves completely ignore it in every single race!

No-one cares about UCI rules.

FJS

The key is in 'endangering others' - which was not the case here. That element makes sure sprinters are allowed to 'close the door', as long as it's safe. Cavendish was not pushed aside or forced to slow down by Petacchi's move. Little sideways pushes are constantly part of sprinting, and generally allowed, but that wasn't even the case here. Petacchi was well ahead when moving across.

I bet none of the 'Cav-was-robbed' posters would have thought twice if a non-British rider instead of Cav was involved

dougzz

FJS wrote:

The key is in 'endangering others' - which was not the case here. That element makes sure sprinters are allowed to 'close the door', as long as it's safe. Cavendish was not pushed aside or forced to slow down by Petacchi's move. Little sideways pushes are constantly part of sprinting, and generally allowed, but that wasn't even the case here. Petacchi was well ahead when moving across.

I bet none of the 'Cav-was-robbed' posters would have thought twice if a non-British rider instead of Cav was involved

How could Petacchi in moving first right and then left know who he was or wasn't endangering? He doesn't see what's behind him does he? That's why he's supposed to hold a line, as soon as he moves off line he's potentially endangering another rider having to break sharply, or the closing rider also has to change line with the inherent risk that others chasing him have the same problem.

frenchfighter

“I think everybody knows the mentality of the sprinter, and knows that it is winning or nothing. Even a rider who isn’t a sprinter, let alone normal people, can imagine the adrenaline that goes through you in a bunch sprint. Today in the sprint, I felt that Alessandro moved from his line. This was because with the experience he has – he is a great rider, a great champion, and he jumped before me. In my eyes, he turned left, he used tactics to block me. But in my life, this has been sprinting. This is the tactics you use in sprinting – as well as the power, this is what sprinting is about.

“In the past, every time I move one centimetre from my line, I am disqualified. But this isn’t Alessandro’s fault. This is the fault of the organisers or the commissaires or whoever is in charge of the race at the time. For me, I felt hard done by because with the same movement, I would be disqualified. But this isn’t Alessandro’s fault, like I said.

“So for me to take my frustration with the jury out on Alessandro is not fair. So when I have time to calm down and think logically about the situation, when the adrenaline stopped going, I learned that it is not fair for me to make a complaint about Alessandro because of my frustration with other people.

“The thing I loved about sprinting, the reason I loved sprinting when I grew up was not just the physical aspect, but it was the tactical aspect. For me to forget this when I have to the adrenaline at the finish is easy. I want to say if I caused some problems with the jury, with Alessandro. In the heat of the moment, it is not fair for me to take my frustration, with the prejudice against me, out on Alessandro.

“So for me his is a great guy, a great champion, and I hope we can make a great show for the rest of the Giro.”

Cavendish

frenchfighter

BTW, LANG finished 22nd!! Respect.

dougzz

iainf72 wrote:

FJS wrote:

Just had time to look at the replays for the first time, and I don't know what people are talking about - it was a clean sprint - Petacchi moved over when ahead, and Cav didn't have to move an inch because of Petacchi move. Clean. Simple. Nothing wrong. Cav admitted so, and I don't think there was an ounce of irony in Hunter's twitter post.

^^^^
this

I wonder Iain if your view is a little clouded by your dislike of Cav? Cheating is cheating whether it's topping up on red cells or weaving about at the front of a sprint. As a football analogy I'm always amused at defenders that spend 90 minutes pulling and tagging at a forwards shirt, kicking and blocking, and then go nuclear about cheating when that same forward takes a dive. Oh well, just my view.

rick_chasey

dougzz wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

FJS wrote:

Just had time to look at the replays for the first time, and I don't know what people are talking about - it was a clean sprint - Petacchi moved over when ahead, and Cav didn't have to move an inch because of Petacchi move. Clean. Simple. Nothing wrong. Cav admitted so, and I don't think there was an ounce of irony in Hunter's twitter post.

^^^^
this

I wonder Iain if your view is a little clouded by your dislike of Cav? Cheating is cheating whether it's topping up on red cells or weaving about at the front of a sprint. As a football analogy I'm always amused at defenders that spend 90 minutes pulling and tagging at a forwards shirt, kicking and blocking, and then go nuclear about cheating when that same forward takes a dive. Oh well, just my view.

It's not cheating.
You guys all take the rules too literally.

People should only mention this rule if it's dangerous.

This clearly wasn't. Cav should have either started his sprint earlier (Petacchi was smart enough to know the way to beat Cav is to go early and get the right position) and shouldn't have let himself get boxed in.

Then it never happens.

Cav was in no way going to crash because of Petacchi's actions.

Tom Butcher

He wasn't boxed in though was he - Cav actually went the other side of his leadout man to give himself plenty of space - Petacchi swerved to the left to box him in - then when Cav checked and went on the other side swerved right to block him - then started to veer back to the left when he was coming at him on that side.

If you allow that it really does open the door all kinds of silly moves. Tactics is about getting on the right wheel, when to open the sprint - not deliberately veering all over the road to block your opponent.

anyway it's done now - I quite like Petacchi even if I think he was wrong on this one and the silver lining is it adds a bit of spice to future sprints. Also looking at the responses of some other sprinters Cav obviously isn't the most popular - plenty willing to wade in to knock him.

Abdoujaparov

"Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others."

As I mentioned in a previous post, the UCI would have phrased this rule differently if they'd meant 'endangering others' to be a necessary condition for an infringement.

They'd have written:

"Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint, if this endangers others."

Why don't they just change the rule to that?

P_Tucker

Just thinking out loud here, but if you were at the front with 200m to go, and the wind was right to left, would you make a beeline for the left barrier? If you wouldn't, you'd probably lose as you helpfully shelter your opponent as he passes you on your left. Dunno if that's what happened here or not - regardless, Petacchi is still allowed to choose his line because, quite simply, he was at the front. It clearly wasn't dangerous.

Besides, Cav's PR manager has clearly stated that Cav was angry at the perception that had he made the same move he'd have been disqualified - not, as the average viewer might think, at the outcome of the sprint.

I, for one, am amazed that he could be angry with an injustice that was yet to occur, given that he hadn't had a complaint rejected by the race jury rejected at the time of his outburst, as it took place 0.23 seconds after the race had finished. I wonder if he is also angry at the Tour route for 2013 which has yet to be announced?

mroli

If it had been Cav doing that, I think I would have thought it was "dodgy" too.

As for it not endangering anyone, there was a point where Ale Jet moved left, Cav went to look around the right of him and Ale Jet moved right again.

Cav had a massive front wheel wobble as he went left again. Now, if he had gone down, IMHO opinion, it would have been his fault, but he would have brought down pretty much everyone in that position?

giant_man

The still immature upstart Cavendish outsprinted and outclassed by the superior Petacchi. Simple as that. Great win.

blazing_saddles

Sean Kelly says Petacchi did nothing wrong, just smart.
Trouble with being a fan of rider "A" or "B" is that it is almost impossible to remain objective in any controversial circumstance.