The Lance hits the fan...
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Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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iainf72 wrote:
Now the mainstream US press is questioning LA it'll be interesting to see whether that really knocks his image there or not, I suspect not. For many people he's Teflon and nothing will change that.
The comparison piece is not really going to work because for anyone that follows baseball Bonds really is an a**ehole, and worse yet he's one of those that tarnished the Babe's (no one cares much for poor old Roger Maris) records.0 -
I think it's also worth remembering that post MLB 2009 allegations and Marion Jones, the US public is likely to be plenty more cynical about doping than it would be, say 5 years ago.0
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dougzz wrote:iainf72 wrote:
Now the mainstream US press is questioning LA it'll be interesting to see whether that really knocks his image there or not, I suspect not. For many people he's Teflon and nothing will change that.
The comparison piece is not really going to work because for anyone that follows baseball Bonds really is an a**ehole, and worse yet he's one of those that tarnished the Babe's (no one cares much for poor old Roger Maris) records.
There's a movie called "61", I guess Maris hit 61 in 1961, Billy Chrystal, that comedian directs it and it is a good movie FOR a sports movie you know, fun movie and it's about Maris and Mickey Mantle, the Mick, who early in that season way vying for the same record and Mantle always was looked at as a true Yankee. Maybe you already know the movie from what you wrote. The guy who played Maris was the American guy with an eagle eye with a rifle in Saving Private Ryan.
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The point about HemAssist is not whether it worked or not - though loved the denial that it was not effective 'except for a really big mountain stage maybe'.
The real point about HemAssist that the debate on its efficacity is obviously meant to obscure is whether Armstrong was in possession of it - because if he was, whether he used it or not, he'd be in quite a lot of trouble - the sort of trouble that the FDA would have to investigate...And everything that made it into that article made it there because kit had been verified by multiple sources and gone over with a fine tooth comb by lawyers0 -
However, was really interested to learn that BioPure, who made HemoPure, helped develop a test for HBOCs for the Athens Olympics because use of HemoPure was prevalent in track & field (athletics). So HBOCs use as a PED is hardly unknown.0
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micron wrote:The point about HemAssist is not whether it worked or not - though loved the denial that it was not effective 'except for a really big mountain stage maybe'.
The real point about HemAssist that the debate on its efficacity is obviously meant to obscure is whether Armstrong was in possession of it - because if he was, whether he used it or not, he'd be in quite a lot of trouble - the sort of trouble that the FDA would have to investigate...And everything that made it into that article made it there because kit had been verified by multiple sources and gone over with a fine tooth comb by lawyers
Absolutely, there's no difference between effective cheating and useless cheating.
However, there so have do be questions asked as to whether he actually got hold of the stuff. The only sportsman so far to have been found to have possessed or used HemAssist was found to have bought a fake.
The SI report says that a source said that he had 'gained access to it' it. The truth of these things should always be challenged. Maybe he got it and used it, maybe he didn't. The rest is speculation.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I take your point, Rich, but the fact that pros were buying fake HemAssist would indicate that a) they knew about it and b) some believed it to be available. What would be interesting to find out is how that situation came to arise.0
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From Stage 4 of the TDU:
Contador is the Greatest0 -
I think the guy who made that sign posts on the Cycling News forum."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0
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andyp wrote:I take your point, Rich, but the fact that pros were buying fake HemAssist would indicate that a) they knew about it and b) some believed it to be available. What would be interesting to find out is how that situation came to arise.
You get my vote for logic.
Take the 2001 Giro story involving Dario Frigo's "saline" HemAssist .
It was reported at the time that he was caught in possession of syringes of: "a drug still in the clinical testing phase."
He said he only intended to use it: "If he felt he was physically weakening."
They were found on the eve of the Giro's Queen stage.
Seems to pretty much support your theory."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Comparing LA with Barry Bonds isn't all that relevant. As Doug says, Bonds is to arseholes what Eddy Merckx is to cycling.
Maybe I'm being too harsh. Ty Cobb was the Merckx of arseholes. Bonds is just the Coppi or Hinault.
OI!!!!!!!0 -
I thought it was you he was talking about :twisted:BarryBonds wrote:RichN95 wrote:Comparing LA with Barry Bonds isn't all that relevant. As Doug says, Bonds is to arseholes what Eddy Merckx is to cycling.
Maybe I'm being too harsh. Ty Cobb was the Merckx of arseholes. Bonds is just the Coppi or Hinault.
OI!!!!!!!0 -
BarryBonds wrote:RichN95 wrote:Comparing LA with Barry Bonds isn't all that relevant. As Doug says, Bonds is to arseholes what Eddy Merckx is to cycling.
Maybe I'm being too harsh. Ty Cobb was the Merckx of arseholes. Bonds is just the Coppi or Hinault.
OI!!!!!!!
What's net access like inside, you're going down
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http://deadspin.com/5738218/the-case-ag ... e=true&s=i
Probably posted already, but if it hasn't been - enjoy.0 -
johnfinch wrote:
I think a lot of us saw this article but I went ahead and read the Spanish version from the Marca, it seems their story has a more severe headline: "The Ex-Mechanic accuses Armstrong of doping" is their read vs. the above New Zealand article but the article then is the same basically. It'd be fun to have a job translating like in the Marca newspaper, a lot of it is a direct translation.
http://www.marca.com/2011/01/24/ciclism ... 97122.html
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Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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How did Ashenden get hold of it in 2001 then?0
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andyp wrote:How did Ashenden get hold of it in 2001 then?
He asked Baxter to make him up a batch, which they did. They wouldn't have done that for Armstrong.In early 2001, anti-doping researcher Michael Ashenden contacted Baxter to ask the company to cooperate with a group of scientists aiming to develop a test for blood substitutes. Ashenden, head of the Australian research consortium Science and Industry Against Blood Doping, was coordinating the study, which was funded by WADA. He met with Estep and secured Baxter's agreement to furnish a small amount of HemAssist, along with proprietary information on how to detect it.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:He asked Baxter to make him up a batch, which they did. They wouldn't have done that for Armstrong.
Officially, no of course they wouldn't. But what's to stop an employee making up a batch and selling it on the black market?
As I said previously, pros had clearly heard of it and Dario Frigo thought he'd bought some, so it's clear that such a scenario is not in the realms of fantasy. One assumes the FDA are taking this seriously as it is very much in their remit, hence the leak.0 -
andyp wrote:Officially, no of course they wouldn't. But what's to stop an employee making up a batch and selling it on the black market?
This is a major pharmacutical company, not a crystal meth lab. They have tight security.andyp wrote:As I said previously, pros had clearly heard of it and Dario Frigo thought he'd bought some, so it's clear that such a scenario is not in the realms of fantasy. One assumes the FDA are taking this seriously as it is very much in their remit, hence the leak.
I've heard of plutonium. It doesn't mean I can buy it.
The FDA will consider any evidence, I imagine. But this doesn't add up for me.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I understand where you're coming from Rich, but I think there's enough evidence out there to suggest that a healthy black market exists for unauthorised drugs, the BALCO case being the most obvious example. If we're stick to cycling, Mauro Gianetti nearly died in 1998 when using PFC, which was in clinical trials at the time.0
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I understand where you're coming from Rich, but I think there's enough evidence out there to suggest that a healthy black market exists for unauthorised drugs, the BALCO case being the most obvious example. If we're stick to cycling, Mauro Gianetti nearly died in 1998 when using PFC, which was in clinical trials at the time.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-time ... dgy-legacy From New ZealandMore than 10 years ago, an American exercise physiologist told me of a rumour circulating among academics about Lance Armstrong: he was using a a drug so radical it was still in the developmental phase.
Like most rumours about Armstrong, there was little basis in fact. But with Armstrong under investigation by the powerful Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which helped bring down Olympic gold medallist Marion Jones, Sports Illustrated went to town on the most-famous, and most-accused, cyclist in history.- Michael Donaldson <---- So who is he to come up with this hypothesis that someone told him this a decade ago?
It's like something you might see in a movie but it's not like there is nothing being said about it, after all, he beat and at times with ease the likes of Ullrich and others. Unlikely but never-the-less, making the rounds. Truth is often stranger than fiction. Like I said about a week ago, this is real sensationalistic, speculation so it just makes for good conversation.0 -
So can we have two separate threads, one for discussing the facts of the case, and one for all the sensationalistic speculation?
Ta.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
cajun_cyclist wrote:More than 10 years ago, an American exercise physiologist told me of a rumour circulating among academics about Lance Armstrong: he was using a a drug so radical it was still in the developmental phase.
Like most rumours about Armstrong, there was little basis in fact. But with Armstrong under investigation by the powerful Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which helped bring down Olympic gold medallist Marion Jones, Sports Illustrated went to town on the most-famous, and most-accused, cyclist in history.- Michael Donaldson <---- So who is he to come up with this hypothesis that someone told him this a decade ago?
So the rumour was circulating among which academics? Post-colonial experts? Cos I doubt pharmacologists or physiologists would talk like that.
A drug so "radical" that other ones (HemoPure) were also in circulation? A drug under "development"? Yeah, like one whose efficacy and safety hadn't yet been proved? That fits with LA's meticulous preparation :roll:
Seriously. The guy is taking epo and transfusing blood, and the governing body are warning his team about tests and even covering up ones that do turn up positive. But still he needs to look for some secret developmental drug?
Well, I suppose it takes the "belt and braces" approach to the extreme...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
His secret drug was the good doctor in St Moritz and having the UCI onside.
Enough of the scooby doo crap. He doped same as all his rivals, but had the advantage of reacting better to the dope and having the UCI in his pocket to forewarn him on tests and get him off the hook when he fcuked up in Switzerland.
I don't think his conviction will change anything either. People have always doped to win (since the agent Greeks) and always will. Have the stars of track and field or baselball gone clean since Jones and Bonds? Hell no.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
