The Lance hits the fan...

cajun_cyclist

Dave_1 wrote:

I am surprised D Walsh doesn't sue for plagiarism..90% of the SI article gives a sense of deja vu..old news..I spent more time trying to find something I didn't already know. Still...it is interesting in places and maybe true. The Stephen Swart stuff..the testo results...anyone can say stuff, like you chumps do on here all the time, fill in the gaps...but try to PROVE IT!

A lot of this is old information but I'm not sure if it is a case of the SI journalists pilfering David Walsh's book or a case of them taking from what their source in the prosecution tells them. Obviously, Stephen Swart has already been in the news about this for a number of years, he was a Motorola rider so I believe that means being a pre-cancer rider with Lance and that dovetails with some of the early testosterone/epitestosterone readings. Maybe the article that will be in SI makes reference to David Walsh's book and perhaps the Federal Prosecutors rely on it in part or largely as well. Quite a few articles are saying what is obvious, we knew some of this. The Catlin/UCLA Lab connection is news to me though. So is the private jet stuff and HemAssist parts. Also, let's not rule out that David Walsh may have ended up getting Swart's testimony or interview from some other venue as well.

Armstrong was in Australia today, taking part in the Tour Down Under.

“Dude, are you stupid? Which part of ‘I’m not commenting,’ is not clear to you?” Armstrong told curious reporters.

(Toronto) http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/9 ... rong-story

It remains true though, try to prove all this in a court of law. This is why for a long time, I've maintained, Lance may be caught on something but it might appear in comparison to be petty, a misdemeanour, not something big. And of course, he has already hired top lawyers to plead his case. Against that of course, is the fact brought out before that Federal prosecutors have a high success rate in their cases. Still, evidence from what appears 15 years ago, +/- is bound to not be that strong, still, from all this, Lance's reputation may well get a black eye in the public arena.

iainf72

They've been researching the story for 2 years. The HemAssist bit is from the feds, but a lot of the other stuff is investigative journalism.

Monty Dog

SI wouldn't publish unless given clearance from the Lawyers that they were not liable for libel - so they must be fairly confident that they have evidence to argue their case. Apparently there was stuff about the charity and stories about hookers n stuff that was left out - perhaps that's the next installment?
Rumour is the Feds are getting the subpoenas ready for the end of the month - perhaps LA will get a reception committee on his return from Aus?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

They've been researching the story for 2 years. The HemAssist bit is from the feds, but a lot of the other stuff is investigative journalism.

Rubbish..1 day of copying old articles more like. There are only a few paragraphs non recycled. ..I spent ages trying to find something I didn't know as did you Iainf

DaveyL

This Novitzky, he was never any good as a cyclist. He needs to pipe down.

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

This Novitzky, he was never any good as a cyclist. He needs to pipe down.

ah..be honest...its a sore point for you,..you talk the talk ...you want to make people think you know something but you don't. Anything you know is strictly from the cyc mags and forums. Change your tone..some people might start respecting you

DaveyL

Dave_1 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

This Novitzky, he was never any good as a cyclist. He needs to pipe down.

ah..be honest...its a sore point for you,..you talk the talk ...you want to make people think you know something but you don't. Anything you know is strictly from the cyc mags and forums. Change your tone..some people might start respecting you

Back on the electric soup, are we?

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

This Novitzky, he was never any good as a cyclist. He needs to pipe down.

ah..be honest...its a sore point for you,..you talk the talk ...you want to make people think you know something but you don't. Anything you know is strictly from the cyc mags and forums. Change your tone..some people might start respecting you

Back on the electric soup, are we?

Yeah, I respect experience of the sport. I suspect you're not as a good as you want to be in the sport and make up for it as the pain in the neck little forum warrior you are

cajun_cyclist

Mike Ashenden, Australian anti-doping scientist. Much from him in Walsh's book.


Jeff Novitzky, prosecutor, steroid cop. http://www.universalsports.com/news/art ... +teammates Universal Sports, appears this is NBC's website. Old article, not too much there, just the characters involved.

It may just be me, the two look similar.

andyp

Dave_1 wrote:

Yeah, I respect experience of the sport. I suspect you're not as a good as you want to be in the sport and make up for it as the pain in the neck little forum warrior you are

May I just point out the irony of this posting by pointing out the respective number of posts made by you and DaveyL?

Thanks.

donrhummy

I'd say the most *shocking* or new bits in that article are the claims that he was doping all the way back in 1992, and with drugs as powerful as EPO.

I'm not sure I buy the HemAssist claim though. That drug didn't even make it out of clinical trials and that a huge company would risk their entire future to give the drug to a cyclist outside the trial seems very far fetched. If it turned up that they'd allowed someone outside a trial to use a potentially dangerous drug for non-life threatening use, the government would have shut them down.

DaveyL

andyp wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Yeah, I respect experience of the sport. I suspect you're not as a good as you want to be in the sport and make up for it as the pain in the neck little forum warrior you are

May I just point out the irony of this posting by pointing out the respective number of posts made by you and DaveyL?

Thanks.

Fergus has been invited before, to discuss matters over which he disagrees with me. But rather than debate and discussion, instead he prefers to keep to personal attacks and nothing else. And the mods seem happy for him to do it. Odd way to run a forum, but what the hell, it's their forum.

Monty Dog

Dario Frigo's career effectively ended when he was found in possession of vials purporting to be Hemassist - it clearly had 'currency' is pro cycling.
When you have haematologists like Ferrari having access to scientific journals and no doubt drugs companies keen to undertake clinical trials, it's not too difficult to understand what happened next.

blazing_saddles

donrhummy wrote:

I'd say the most *shocking* or new bits in that article are the claims that he was doping all the way back in 1992, and with drugs as powerful as EPO.

Given that in 1992 EPO was the PED du Jour and that it was allegedly (along with testosterone) mentioned in Armstrong's "hospital confession", I'd say it falls into the old news category.

As for the corporate jet/customs almost drugs bust, that won't fly anywhere.

Since SI is THE sporting mag, I'm sure some casual US observers will change their opinion of Lance.
However, the vast majority will have no idea about testosterone ratios or HC levels and so, quickly forget.

The Popovych bust, on the other hand, could hold enough substance to make an indictment stick.


Electric soup: Is that on the banned substance list?

Monty Dog

Electric soup - isn't that a treatment like Electro-Convulsive Therapy?

calvjones

I see Wiggo has finally jumped the shark completely on this one

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins ... ade-public


Sometimes I think he only opens his mouth to change feet.

inkyfingers

calvjones wrote:

I see Wiggo has finally jumped the shark completely on this one

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins ... ade-public


Sometimes I think he only opens his mouth to change feet.

I think his call for passport data to be made public is a good one, the only danger is that the data could be used by uninformed "internet forum people" to prove whaterver point they want to make.

Ref what he says about Lance, what else can he say? Innocent until proven guilty is basic point of law (at least in the UK). It's not up to him to prosecute dopers, it's up to the UCI and or national anti doping authorities. You also have to remember that he rides in the pro peloton, a lot of the people alleged to have been involved in the goings on at USPS are probably close friends of his. He's not going to critiscise them publicly based on what is at the moment just speculation in the media and comments from someobody who has lied through his teeth in the past.

He has also been very forthright in what he's said about proven dopers in the past (e.g. Ricco and whoever that Cofidis teamate was who got busted during the 2007 tour), until LA or others are found guilty we won't know whether he'll be as vocal about them.

Bakunin

The Popo thing is strange.

He gives testimony here, then goes back to Italy and is shaken down. And they find stuff after he has already been dragged into this thing. How did he do behind closed doors to set that in motion. Not sure whether he is a box of rocks or brilliant.

If the Italians do something at the behest of the FDA, does that mean that whatever they find is null and void re: Italian law?

IIRC, there were pictures of him at the shacks camp with a big smile.

Selena Roberts had promised an earth shattering book on the baseball player ARod -- it turned out to be pretty mild. But there is more here than just old news.

calvjones

inkyfingers wrote:

calvjones wrote:

I see Wiggo has finally jumped the shark completely on this one

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins ... ade-public


Sometimes I think he only opens his mouth to change feet.

I think his call for passport data to be made public is a good one, the only danger is that the data could be used by uninformed "internet forum people" to prove whaterver point they want to make.

Ref what he says about Lance, what else can he say? Innocent until proven guilty is basic point of law (at least in the UK). It's not up to him to prosecute dopers, it's up to the UCI and or national anti doping authorities. You also have to remember that he rides in the pro peloton, a lot of the people alleged to have been involved in the goings on at USPS are probably close friends of his. He's not going to critiscise them publicly based on what is at the moment just speculation in the media and comments from someobody who has lied through his teeth in the past.

He has also been very forthright in what he's said about proven dopers in the past (e.g. Ricco and whoever that Cofidis teamate was who got busted during the 2007 tour), until LA or others are found guilty we won't know whether he'll be as vocal about them.

He could have said nothing, rather than trotting out the old 'most tested' canard, dissing Landis etc?

As he virtually admits in the article, his admiration for Lance makes him an unreliable judge. So he should perhaps have said no comment? I don't see Pip or Tommy V stepping forward to advise caution in condemning Lance and they're subject to the same peer pressure.

But yeah, certainly right on the Bio Passport.

inkyfingers

calvjones wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

calvjones wrote:

I see Wiggo has finally jumped the shark completely on this one

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins ... ade-public


Sometimes I think he only opens his mouth to change feet.

I think his call for passport data to be made public is a good one, the only danger is that the data could be used by uninformed "internet forum people" to prove whaterver point they want to make.

Ref what he says about Lance, what else can he say? Innocent until proven guilty is basic point of law (at least in the UK). It's not up to him to prosecute dopers, it's up to the UCI and or national anti doping authorities. You also have to remember that he rides in the pro peloton, a lot of the people alleged to have been involved in the goings on at USPS are probably close friends of his. He's not going to critiscise them publicly based on what is at the moment just speculation in the media and comments from someobody who has lied through his teeth in the past.

He has also been very forthright in what he's said about proven dopers in the past (e.g. Ricco and whoever that Cofidis teamate was who got busted during the 2007 tour), until LA or others are found guilty we won't know whether he'll be as vocal about them.

He could have said nothing, rather than trotting out the old 'most tested' canard, dissing Landis etc?

As he virtually admits in the article, his admiration for Lance makes him an unreliable judge. So he should perhaps have said no comment? I don't see Pip or Tommy V stepping forward to advise caution in condemning Lance and they're subject to the same peer pressure.

But yeah, certainly right on the Bio Passport.

I know what you mean, but Wiggins is not the "no comment" type, and the world would be a very boring place if nobody ever commented about anything! Admitedly, the "most tested" bit did make me cringe.

As to what any other pro would say, i've no idea but we won't know unless somebody asks them. All I can say is that I can't see a queue of pro cyclists waiting to slag off LA, It might win them some fans on Cycling News, but making those kind of accusations isn't going to please their teams, their sponsors and will probably damage their career in the long run.

Kléber

donrhummy wrote:

I'm not sure I buy the HemAssist claim though. That drug didn't even make it out of clinical trials and that a huge company would risk their entire future to give the drug to a cyclist outside the trial seems very far fetched. If it turned up that they'd allowed someone outside a trial to use a potentially dangerous drug for non-life threatening use, the government would have shut them down.

Note that EPO was circulating amongst some Dutch riders in 1998. It wasn't licenced for use until 1989 in the US. Also, there have been rumours of Italian riders dabbling with products under clinical trial. Note Mauro Gianetti is reported to have almost died after dabbling with PFC, an unapproved drug.

andyp

I don't think there is any 'reported' about the Gianetti incident. I was living in Switzerland at the time and it was a major story on the national news. The doctor treating him was very frank when interviewed, essentially saying that Gianetti was at real risk of death yet wouldn't tell them what he'd taken.

RichN95.

Kléber wrote:

Note that EPO was circulating amongst some Dutch riders in 1998. It wasn't licenced for use until 1989 in the US. Also, there have been rumours of Italian riders dabbling with products under clinical trial. Note Mauro Gianetti is reported to have almost died after dabbling with PFC, an unapproved drug.

EPO trials finished in 1986, though. And PFC was approved in the 80s (see Fluosol).

Clinical trial drugs are really tightly regulated, it would be extremely difficult for an outsider to get hold of them.

I think it's more likely that any 'trial drugs' being used by cyclists are actually something else (Frigo's 'HemAssist' was actually salt water).

It's not Boots that sells this stuff, it's people who, by definition, are not honest people, and sportsmen make pretty easy targets for someone to dupe.

iainf72

calvjones wrote:

I see Wiggo has finally jumped the shark completely on this one

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins ... ade-public


Sometimes I think he only opens his mouth to change feet.

Floyd has responded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUCzQ0e3 ... r_embedded

rockmount

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Mike Ashenden, Australian anti-doping scientist. Much from him in Walsh's book.


Jeff Novitzky, prosecutor, steroid cop. http://www.universalsports.com/news/art ... +teammates Universal Sports, appears this is NBC's website. Old article, not too much there, just the characters involved.

It may just be me, the two look similar.

Harry Hill - May have all the answers ..

dougzz

iainf72 wrote:

Floyd has responded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUCzQ0e3 ... r_embedded

Beazed maybe the only one to trust in this whole sack of crap

moray_gub

afx237vi wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Is Popo being sanctioned for the juice SI say they found in his house?

That's the only thing that piqued my interest in the whole article tbh.

Likewise......... I find it very strange Italian police find a stash in his house and he is still riding with to my knowledge no procedures under way against him.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Is Popo being sanctioned for the juice SI say they found in his house?

That's the only thing that piqued my interest in the whole article tbh.

+1
That's because it's the only thing that appears to be backed up by evidence of some form.
Popo may be required to fall on his sword.............or get pushed.

If that's true of course .

moray_gub

Dave_1 wrote:

[can say stuff, like you chumps do on here all the time, fill in the gaps...but try to PROVE IT!

Now that is funny

frenchfighter

Anyone who still thinks Lance is not a hardcore doper, manipulator and liar...worrying.

Not only is he a huge fraud in the sport, not only has he ruined and corrupted the careers of many others, he is also a fraud in the real World.