Who on BR has bought a 'cheap' Chinese carbon frame?

ademort · August 2011

ademort wrote:

Take a look at these Real Pinarellos that have failed. Funnily enough they all fail at the top tube and down tube :shock:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 90#p786990.
Funnily enough they always seem to break at the top tube and down tube
Ademort

Further to the above the moderator on the WW site has just pulled the plug on the thread saying that it,s had it,s day. Sorry but the photos of the Genuine cracked Pinarellos must have really hit a nerve with someone over there :oops: :oops: :oops:
Ademort

Evil Laugh · August 2011

I'm not seriously saying people are out looting, merely pulling Tuckers leg, you know in the way he, sometimes amusingly, sometimes annoyingly, likes to do with others.

In all seriousness though, there are the issues of tax evasion, counterfeit products and of money being lost to our sport and economy that goes with buying these products. I'll admit I've considered buying some of the rims. In the last few days and weeks I've come to the conclusion that I'll not bother. If you want to that's your choice but don't try and make out everyone else has to ignore the ethical and copyright issues and illegalities surrounding these suppliers just because you may choose to.

petemadoc · August 2011

Evil Laugh wrote:

I'm not seriously saying people are out looting, merely pulling Tuckers leg, you know in the way he, sometimes amusingly, sometimes annoyingly, likes to do with others.

In all seriousness though, there are the issues of tax evasion, counterfeit products and of money being lost to our sport and economy that goes with buying these products. I'll admit I've considered buying some of the rims. In the last few days and weeks I've come to the conclusion that I'll not bother. If you want to that's your choice but don't try and make out everyone else has to ignore the ethical and copyright issues and illegalities surrounding these suppliers just because you may choose to.

Tax evasion, possibly . . . but you could argue that the government has been promoting tax free bikes in the UK for a while now.

Counterfeit products, it does seem a bit dodgy.

Money being lost to the sport and economy. There seems to be a few brands that put feck all back into the sport, the first that comes to mind being Ribble, they also seem to put feck all into their customer service, but that's another story. I bought a fair few other parts from UK based bike shops that I probably wouldn't have done if I hadn't bought the frame. In fact I always seem to be buying bike parts of some sorts, I'm sure the bike industry does pretty well out of me.

One day I'll buy a Bianchi, It'll probably be made in China too but hey it's my dream bike. Right now the choice was between Planet X, Ribble or Chinese carbon. I didn't like the two former and I'm delighted with my Chinese jobby

rolf_f · August 2011

PeteMadoc wrote:

Tax evasion, possibly . . . but you could argue that the government has been promoting tax free bikes in the UK for a while now.

Money being lost to the sport and economy. There seems to be a few brands that put feck all back into the sport, the first that comes to mind being Ribble, they also seem to put feck all into their customer service, but that's another story. I bought a fair few other parts from UK based bike shops that I probably wouldn't have done if I hadn't bought the frame. In fact I always seem to be buying bike parts of some sorts, I'm sure the bike industry does pretty well out of me.

How bizarre! The government giving tax breaks does not legitimise tax evasion and it's pretty bit wierd to think it does.

And what's wrong with Ribble that deserves special attention? What is it that they in particular aren't putting back into the support that others do (and the customer service is fine btw). Most shops and bike sellers aren't exactly promoting much UK manufacturing given there isn't much opportunity to do that though I did notice the other day that Ribble supply Hope with their company bikes. The only real benefit to the UK economy of a lot of shops is in the profit they make on imported goods and Ribble are no better or worse than anyone else in that respect.

I don't know - obviously some of these frames are identical to those available with expensive paint jobs but anyone who thinks that there aren't dodgy factories in China producing dodgy frames is surely naive. And it is probably naive to assume that the all of the companies that supply to Europe are producing the better quality stuff. So how do you avoid the really dodgy ones?

PeteMadoc wrote:

Right now the choice was between Planet X, Ribble or Chinese carbon. I didn't like the two former and I'm delighted with my Chinese jobby

More wierdness - your Ribble and Planet X are Chinese (or Taiwanese) carbon so what is your point?!!! The only difference is a small price gain at a greater risk if there is a fault (which is an entirely reasonable decision either way depending on your degree of risk aversion) but that has nothing to do with the frames themselves assuming they aren't faulty.

P_Tucker · August 2011

Evil Laugh wrote:

I'm not seriously saying people are out looting, merely pulling Tuckers leg, you know in the way he, sometimes amusingly, sometimes annoyingly, likes to do with others.

Good work, you totally got me. I was furious.

Chip \'oyler · August 2011

ademort wrote:

Take a look at these Real Pinarellos that have failed. Funnily enough they all fail at the top tube and down tube :shock:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 90#p786990.
Funnily enough they always seem to break at the top tube and down tube
Ademort

Jeez that makes this thread even funnier. So people are buying knock-offs/fakes of a branded product that is crap in the first place

petemadoc · August 2011

Rolf F wrote:

PeteMadoc wrote:

Tax evasion, possibly . . . but you could argue that the government has been promoting tax free bikes in the UK for a while now.

Money being lost to the sport and economy. There seems to be a few brands that put feck all back into the sport, the first that comes to mind being Ribble, they also seem to put feck all into their customer service, but that's another story. I bought a fair few other parts from UK based bike shops that I probably wouldn't have done if I hadn't bought the frame. In fact I always seem to be buying bike parts of some sorts, I'm sure the bike industry does pretty well out of me.

How bizarre! The government giving tax breaks does not legitimise tax evasion and it's pretty bit wierd to think it does.

And what's wrong with Ribble that deserves special attention? What is it that they in particular aren't putting back into the support that others do (and the customer service is fine btw). Most shops and bike sellers aren't exactly promoting much UK manufacturing given there isn't much opportunity to do that though I did notice the other day that Ribble supply Hope with their company bikes. The only real benefit to the UK economy of a lot of shops is in the profit they make on imported goods and Ribble are no better or worse than anyone else in that respect.

I don't know - obviously some of these frames are identical to those available with expensive paint jobs but anyone who thinks that there aren't dodgy factories in China producing dodgy frames is surely naive. And it is probably naive to assume that the all of the companies that supply to Europe are producing the better quality stuff. So how do you avoid the really dodgy ones?

PeteMadoc wrote:

Right now the choice was between Planet X, Ribble or Chinese carbon. I didn't like the two former and I'm delighted with my Chinese jobby

More wierdness - your Ribble and Planet X are Chinese (or Taiwanese) carbon so what is your point?!!! The only difference is a small price gain at a greater risk if there is a fault (which is an entirely reasonable decision either way depending on your degree of risk aversion) but that has nothing to do with the frames themselves assuming they aren't faulty.

You might think I'm weird but I was merely trying to counter Evillaugh's arguments.

With regards to tax, if you can buy a completely tax free bike through the CTW scheme (and yes I know this is changing at the moment) then not paying VAT on the frame only isn't costing HMRC much. I fully understand that anyone who buys one of these frames should be calling up customs to declare their import and pay their VAT bill. If you can find a single person who would do this I'd be amazed.

When I said I didn't like Ribble or Planet X it's nothing against them, it's just the styling is not for me. A few mates have got Ribble's and I didn't want to get the same as them and Planet X just doesn't float my boat.

Regarding putting money into the sport I'm comparing Ribble to the likes of specialized, Pinarello, trek etc who all plough loads of money into sponsorship and development.

rolf_f · August 2011

PeteMadoc wrote:

You might think I'm weird but I was merely trying to counter Evillaugh's arguments.

With regards to tax, if you can buy a completely tax free bike through the CTW scheme (and yes I know this is changing at the moment) then not paying VAT on the frame only isn't costing HMRC much. I fully understand that anyone who buys one of these frames should be calling up customs to declare their import and pay their VAT bill. If you can find a single person who would do this I'd be amazed.

When I said I didn't like Ribble or Planet X it's nothing against them, it's just the styling is not for me. A few mates have got Ribble's and I didn't want to get the same as them and Planet X just doesn't float my boat.

Regarding putting money into the sport I'm comparing Ribble to the likes of specialized, Pinarello, trek etc who all plough loads of money into sponsorship and development.

Naaah, didn't think you were wierd - just your arguments!!

The customs thing is a bit wierd itself though. Why is it that nobody gets snagged when importing Chinese frames yet you can guarantee to get done when importing from the US? I was pretty hacked off after having bought a Lancia grille badge on Ebay for about £35 to end up paying more like £70 to cover duties (given that the badge was made in Europe anyway).

See what you mean by the sponsorship thing but Ribble isn't really the same sort of business as the likes of Trek and Pinarello. More than anything it is a bike retailer and most of those aren't doing much sponsorship and development either. If anything, I think its real crime is the squeeze it puts on the LBS but that applies to any business who has a big website - not just the obvious ones like CRC, Wiggle and Ribble.

Agree re the Planet X!!

petemadoc · August 2011

Rolf F wrote:

PeteMadoc wrote:

You might think I'm weird but I was merely trying to counter Evillaugh's arguments.

With regards to tax, if you can buy a completely tax free bike through the CTW scheme (and yes I know this is changing at the moment) then not paying VAT on the frame only isn't costing HMRC much. I fully understand that anyone who buys one of these frames should be calling up customs to declare their import and pay their VAT bill. If you can find a single person who would do this I'd be amazed.

When I said I didn't like Ribble or Planet X it's nothing against them, it's just the styling is not for me. A few mates have got Ribble's and I didn't want to get the same as them and Planet X just doesn't float my boat.

Regarding putting money into the sport I'm comparing Ribble to the likes of specialized, Pinarello, trek etc who all plough loads of money into sponsorship and development.

Naaah, didn't think you were wierd - just your arguments!!

The customs thing is a bit wierd itself though. Why is it that nobody gets snagged when importing Chinese frames yet you can guarantee to get done when importing from the US? I was pretty hacked off after having bought a Lancia grille badge on Ebay for about £35 to end up paying more like £70 to cover duties (given that the badge was made in Europe anyway).

See what you mean by the sponsorship thing but Ribble isn't really the same sort of business as the likes of Trek and Pinarello. More than anything it is a bike retailer and most of those aren't doing much sponsorship and development either. If anything, I think its real crime is the squeeze it puts on the LBS but that applies to any business who has a big website - not just the obvious ones like CRC, Wiggle and Ribble.

Agree re the Planet X!!

I think the customs thing is due to there being no import duty on goods from the far east whereas goods from the US and other "developed" nations outside the EU are subject to both import duty and VAT. HMRC probably want to make sure they're getting all they're owed in import duty and they're not too worried about VAT on people's £10 ebay purchases from Hong Kong.

Both Ribble and carbonzone/Hongfu etc put little back into the sport other that allowing the likes of me to afford to ride a nice light carbon bike, that was the point I was attempting to make.

I have to say the Dogma knock off's do concern me a little, mainly because that the type of people who are prepared to produce these frames must know they are illegal and are likely to be cutting corners. I maybe wrong.

Eric Cartman · August 2011

Waiting on my frame to arrive and excited by the prospect of getting my own paint job done....actually that is what is what i am looking forward to most, creating something unique and being able to do it for a fraction of the cost of what it would otherwise be! Won't be branding it with some other companies name...Not really seeing the point of wanting to be associated with a brand that is apparently for fat slow dentists!

Evil Laugh · August 2011

Well make sure you declare the import duties. We need that money to pay for the damage caused to our economy by the greedy looters.

ollyridesfirst · August 2011

What does it matter what people can afford? I think some people are just trying to blow themselves off here!

I could in no way afford/justify buying a Pinarello Dogma at £7k+ and if i tried, i've no doubt the mrs would cut my balls off. Does that make certain people better than me because they can afford it? I enjoy riding a bike and at present mine is probably worth in the region of about £2k with the upgrades i have saved for and put on myself.

When it comes to a Chinarello....there are some absolute beauties here for around the £1k mark (full bike). This is with the frame costing about £400 at most. Even if the frame breaks and you buy another one, then that breaks and you buy another one, then that breaks and you buy anther (you see where this is going).....aside from the loss of bike time and the pain in the arse, you're still about £5k better off!

I'm just about to buy a cheap fixie, but i am seriously considering a chinese frame for my next proper road bike. I would have absolutely no problems in having it painted up to look like a Pinarello because they are stunning bikes (paint job as well as frame). Let's face it, when you hit a patch of wet leaves and slide onto the tarmac, your chinese frame and "italian" frame (by this i mean it has a sticker saying "made in Italy") are both going to take a lot of force and probably break!

BeaconJon · August 2011

So just to repeat a question I asked about 3 pages ago, would people consider the FM028 to have a more Sportive geometry than the FM015. If so why?

Cheers, Jon (a medium sized printer)

mcrdave · August 2011

BeaconJon wrote:

So just to repeat a question I asked about 3 pages ago, would people consider the FM028 to have a more Sportive geometry than the FM015. If so why?

Cheers, Jon (a medium sized printer)

Yes Jon, I would anyway. It has a taller head tube and slightly shorter top tube so you're more upright, only slightly though. It seems to be based loosely on a Trek Madone,

carl_p · August 2011

OllyRidesFirst wrote:

When it comes to a Chinarello....there are some absolute beauties here for around the £1k mark (full bike). This is with the frame costing about £400 at most. Even if the frame breaks and you buy another one, then that breaks and you buy another one, then that breaks and you buy anther (you see where this is going).....aside from the loss of bike time and the pain in the ars*, you're still about £5k better off!

I think if my frame broke once and I lived to tell the tale I certainly wouldn'y buy another, but I kind of see your point

Even a pucker DOGMA is fugly in my eyes, but heyho each to their own.

Who knows a couple of years down the line I might be tempted to build up one of these frames - might be some prettier frames copied by then, e.g. Wilier

derbygrimpeur · August 2011

Percy Vera wrote:

mroli wrote:

and your problem was faulty bottle cage inserts... Did you get it sorted? How? and are you riding the bike?

I glued them with epoxy resin, unfortunately that didn't work. I'm still riding it (but not much due to an injury) with the bottle swinging about, I'll probably just end up using a couple of cable ties.

Daniel B wrote:

What have you done with your bottle cage holes - were all 4 faulty........?
Dan

Only 2 were faulty, the ones on the down tube.

As I said before at £300 it was worth a punt. The frame seems Ok, so if you're lucky and get one that isn't faulty it would be a good buy.

might be worth contacting this fella...
www.carboncyclerepairs.co.uk/index.html

BeaconJon · August 2011

Has anyone got links to the geometry for the 015 and the 028 please?

Can't seem to track it down

Evil Laugh · August 2011

http://cheapcarbonframes.com/2010/07/fm ... -geometry/

http://cheapcarbonframes.com/2010/07/ge ... gfu-fm015/

BeaconJon · August 2011

Many thanks Evil Laugh

Velonutter · August 2011

After the seamless way my daughters frame arrived I ordered on the 23rd July a frame for my son from Carbon_bicycle, but didn't go through eBay but bought direct.

I won't short-cut that way again, they didn't send it for over a week then when they finally did the tracking number was incorrect then they sent it by Hong Kong normal post and not EMS and finally it has been sitting in customs for over a week and I now have a £20.89 customs charge which ain't bad considering it could have been a lot worse.

I would recommend anyone to not buy it direct but to actually hit the button via eBay as that way they want to protect their feedback rating.

Looks like it won't be here for a few more days yet, so after my initial pleasure this shipment has been a pain, I wouldn't have minded but I ordered 2 weeks after that some Novotec hubs and they arrived this morning, albeit the wrong free wheel so they have now got to go back :roll: :shock:

bluesparx · August 2011

I thought I had better contribute to this thread to try to drag it back to the original question and because I suspect most thread readers are in the same position I was. That position being a person who has recently got into cycling, bought an entry level road bike, loved it but always wondered about the validity of their need for a more expensive ‘lighter’ bike and as such can’t justify a £1k plus outlay on an experiment.
I have purchased a rb003 (fm015) frame and forks from carbonzone on ebay (carbon seatpost also). I got away with the import dutyand it only took about 10 days to arrive.
My initial idea was to transfer all the other equipment from my 2010 Specialized allez comp, but I then decided to at least upgrade the groupset to shimano 105 (5600) from mostly second hand ebay sellers. I chose this frame because even though most of my rides are long, I had no complaint with the more racy geometry of the allez. The total set up can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/62120064@N05/6017822033/in/photostream/
It was my first complete build but I am reasonably familiar with bike maintenance techniques and found it quite straightforward. The whole thing weighed 8.5kg, which is only 2.1kg less than the allez (with mavic aksiums upgrade), and so with me and two water bottles on top is only a weight saving of 2.5%
In total the whole set up has cost me less than £500 and I still have most of a specialized allez to sell if I wish.
I don’t feel 100% qualified to comment on the ride as I have only known mountain bikes and my bottom of the range allez. However, I have learnt the meaning of a lot of phrases and words I never knew the true meaning of before like ‘flex’ ‘road buzz’. This is because there are some things you can’t define without comparisons. This carbon frame does seem to cushion every grid, pothole and lesser crenellation. I didn’t believe it would be possible to tell but the ride generally is a lot smoother and so feels more luxurious. The rigidity of the frame is very noticeable when grinding up a hill, my aluminium frame used to ‘twist’ a lot around the bottom bracket if I looked down, but on his bike it looked rigid and because I believed this was converting more of my power to the drive chain, I felt stronger.
This build also for some reason felt like it was more ‘direct’ I cant explain what I mean exactly but I just felt like I flowed around corners much more.
I wasn’t entirely convinced whether I enjoyed the lightness of the bike, maybe I will get used to it, but to me it felt more skittish, like the centre of gravity was high and forward. This was compounded by the fact that I lost my back end braking ever so slightly going downhill on a damp road. I came off and broke my collar bone, which means I’ve got another 5 weeks at least before I can get on it again! This balance issue maybe because I have moved up a frame size also. I have an 86cm inseam, I am 182cm tall and always thought my 56cm allez was too small. The 58cm RB003 does feel more stretched out but I think it is a better fit for me. I might change to a shorter stem though.
In summary
Did I get up hills any quicker- No
Did I get a better overall mph- No
Do I feel like I’ve had an upgrade for a fraction of the cost of a new carbon bike- Yes
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TiBoy · August 2011

Very nice build bluesparx, I keep dipping in and out of the thread as was thinking of getting a pair of forks but when I decide to get some I see some comments that stop me from pressing the Buy it Now button. The carbon lay up looks really good on your frame and the forks look ok too so I am confused again. Will make my mind up one day

ptr_ · August 2011

Excellent write up bluesparx.

I'm one of those who has been considering one of these frames for a long time, never quite managed to hit the buy button due to concerns of build quality and safety.

JD96 · August 2011

Chinese frame, or planet x pro carbon?

I'd be using it for youth circuit racing, so lots of sprints and good handling is essential.

Thanks

GoingCarbon · August 2011

JD96 wrote:

Chinese frame, or planet x pro carbon?

I'd be using it for youth circuit racing, so lots of sprints and good handling is essential.

Thanks

The Planet X frames are made in China :?

Velonutter · August 2011

Despite a few hiccups with the despatch and arrival of my sons frame from Carbon_bicycle, the frame built up very nicely.

My daughters is a 48cm and weighed 1040g and my sons is a 58cm and weighs 1130g

Both frames were nicely made, perfectly aligned, cleanly finished inside the lugs, I really can't complain about the product.

Just to re-iterate if you do buy from them make sure they agree to send via EMS and only through eBay.

hagar123 · August 2011

post removed

hille · August 2011

Crimmey wrote:

white or red pedals? Not sure bout deda stickers too.

Where did you get the deda stickes?

Crimmey · August 2011

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-Dedacciai- ... 518f28a937

anthonychou · August 2011

thankyou to BLUESPARX for the full writeup on his experiences, and to VELONUTTER for his experience on buying outside of ebay.

This thread is extremely useful and is ridiculous how it deteriorated into mindless chit-chat about decals.

back on topic, im just wondering how much more cost effective it is to build a build using one of these carbon frames, when you could just say go for a ribble (albeit more expensive) but use a cyle to work scheme?

Who on BR has bought a 'cheap' Chinese carbon frame?

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