Speed over 30 miles?

Airwave

SBezza wrote:

Airwave wrote:

inseine wrote:

i do 2-3hrs rides at 20-22mph on my own during the summer

here we go again.............

Reread it.The point i'm making is my&Wills not very good TT times&why that might be.Don't worry i know i'm only an ave. club rider.By 42yrs you know your place in the sheme of things.

Psychological, or the fact you don't train your body to hit 95%+ of HR Max for a 25 min period, or even a 1 hour effort. 42 is not that old, plenty of the top TTer's are nearing 40, or even older.

I am 41 myself, and certainly do not see this as a limiter at all. To be honest if you can do that sort of speed regularly on a training ride, then I would say it is more psychological, for a TT you just have to accept it will hurt, and push as hard as your body will let you, and not how much your head wants to push the body.

Yeh we got a couple of guys 60+ local who can still rip it up.Does'nt mean everyone's the same though.Your an athelete&talented at it &there's not many people are at your level.
But i think your spot on about how hard i can push in TTs.When i do 92%of MHR i very happy so i could do better.I quiet often feel like throwing up at the end though.
I was a good cross country runner when i was younger,county level.But i don't run any more due to knee injuries playing football.So i expect i'm more suited to longer distances no matter how hard i train for shorter distances.But i have fun trying

a_n_t

What it took for my sub 23 10TT



Yes, it hurts!!

sturmey

What it took for my sub 23 10TT

Interesting to see your suffering in the shape of a graph.

Have you got a graph from a 25 to show us how it compares?

Surfr

That's not suffering! This is suffering! Just to show how everyone is different, this is my 27:27 PB on Sub55's local Llety Gwyn sporting 10 course.


http://connect.garmin.com/activity/46122874

I've just finished my 2nd season of cycling. 3 years ago I was 15+ stone and smoking 20 a day. Now aged 34 next month, under 12 stone and riding up to 200 miles a week). I do sunday club runs, chain gangs and this season have tried my hand at 2/3/4 handicap circuits, 3/4 crits and cyclocross. I'd consider myself on the very bottom rung of the club racer ladder.

As for the OP and avg speed, todays 4 man ride was at an avg. of 16 MPH over 50 miles
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/56682412

I don't appear to have recorded a single solo ride over 20MPH avg. A fair few in the 19s but anything over was either a TT or a chaingang.

genki

At around 20mph, the main reason why some people can ride for long distances above 20mph, and others can't is probably down to position on the bike. If you're on the drops and can stay down there, it's going to require so much less power than if you're sitting upright with your hands on the tops, or hoods. 2mph or more, depending on how aero you are. Throw in the issue of baggy clothing and you've got another 1-2mph. Summer versus winter air temperatures another 1-2mph.

softlad

genki wrote:

At around 20mph, the main reason why some people can ride for long distances above 20mph, and others can't is probably down to position on the bike.

and perhaps the profile of the route....?

like 'surfr' - I've never hit 20mph average on any ride since I started training again a couple of years ago. I don't do TTs but I can hold my own in a road or circuit race.

Yesterday's ride was 82 miles solo at an average of 15mph - but it did have 5,600ft of climbing in it, which kind of knocks the average down a bit.

jibberjim

genki wrote:

At around 20mph, the main reason why some people can ride for long distances above 20mph, and others can't is probably down to position on the bike. If you're on the drops and can stay down there, it's going to require so much less power than if you're sitting upright with your hands on the tops, or hoods.

Indeed, however if the aerodynamic position was good enough to make that difference, then their short TT's would be faster too, the confusion a lot of us have is that the speeds for short durations are relatively very slow compared to the speeds for longer durations - which means the individuals power curve must be incredibly flat.

Differences in av. speed can of course be explained by road surfaces, route selection, aerodynamics, groups etc. but the solo 10mile and 80mile efforts for a normal power curve can't show that much variation unless the 10mile effort is on a much worse road surface or much hillier terrain. Neither which are likely on any 10 course.

amaferanga

Surfr wrote:

That's not suffering! This is suffering! Just to show how everyone is different, this is my 27:27 PB on Sub55's local Llety Gwyn sporting 10 course.


http://connect.garmin.com/activity/46122874

I've just finished my 2nd season of cycling. 3 years ago I was 15+ stone and smoking 20 a day. Now aged 34 next month, under 12 stone and riding up to 200 miles a week). I do sunday club runs, chain gangs and this season have tried my hand at 2/3/4 handicap circuits, 3/4 crits and cyclocross. I'd consider myself on the very bottom rung of the club racer ladder.

As for the OP and avg speed, todays 4 man ride was at an avg. of 16 MPH over 50 miles
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/56682412

I don't appear to have recorded a single solo ride over 20MPH avg. A fair few in the 19s but anything over was either a TT or a chaingang.

#

Looks to me like you need to revise your max HR figure.

SBezza

Airwave wrote:

Yeh we got a couple of guys 60+ local who can still rip it up.Does'nt mean everyone's the same though.Your an athelete&talented at it &there's not many people are at your level.

Irrespective of someone's ability, 42 is not a limiter for you, if you are fairly new to cycling, you can still improve even at 42, that is what I was trying to get across. You might not improve as much as someone else, but still you should be able to improve on your current level, especially if you can ride at the sort of pace mentioned for 2 hours.

inseine

You really know how to push yourself surfr! Had a quick look at your Garmin. looks like a nice route. 165 bpm average!!! Looks like you'll have to reset your maximum values too!
Actually looking at your TT heart rate I think you've underestimated your max.

Airwave

If power meters were a lot cheaper&most could afford one then it would be a much easier to gudge yourself&how well or not your doing in TTs.It would also take ave speed out of the aqation.The differences between routes would'nt matter.The power produce would become the most important aspect of a trianing ride&the ave speed would be whatever it wasThe only time i've borrowed a power meter for a 1hr theshold test it was an eye opener&wish i had one.I produced a very modest 251watts which works out at 3.7watts/kg.That was in Oct so expect it would've been a little higher in the summer.This must be a much more accurate indicator for me than some spurious ave speeds.

Surfr

Although my HR seems naturally high, I can't push it above about 194 and I only seem to hit it on big climbs like Bwlch y Groes. 165 doesn't even register. I fel like I'm working when it goes above 170 and 182 sustained for a 10 mile TT is hard work but not *too* painful. The 190s are when it really starts to hurt. I'm 33 I've been cycling for 2 seasons after 15 years of zero exercise,rubbish diet and smoking if that helps.

SBezza

Airwave wrote:

If power meters were a lot cheaper&most could afford one then it would be a much easier to gudge yourself&how well or not your doing in TTs.It would also take ave speed out of the aqation.The differences between routes would'nt matter.The power produce would become the most important aspect of a trianing ride&the ave speed would be whatever it wasThe only time i've borrowed a power meter for a 1hr theshold test it was an eye opener&wish i had one.I produced a very modest 251watts which works out at 3.7watts/kg.That was in Oct so expect it would've been a little higher in the summer.This must be a much more accurate indicator for me than some spurious ave speeds.

A power meter is the most accurate tool, but the figures it pumps out are still only really relevant to you. What someone else puts out is not important, it is what you can put out that is important, and improving on that figure. Watts per KG is a better gauge, but even this in TTing is spurious, as you need to worry about watts and aerodynamics rather than weight (unless it is a real hilly course).

SBezza

Surfr wrote:

Although my HR seems naturally high, I can't push it above about 194 and I only seem to hit it on big climbs like Bwlch y Groes. 165 doesn't even register. I fel like I'm working when it goes above 170 and 182 sustained for a 10 mile TT is hard work but not *too* painful. The 190s are when it really starts to hurt. I'm 33 I've been cycling for 2 seasons after 15 years of zero exercise,rubbish diet and smoking if that helps.

Then you have to assume 194 is your HRMax. In your graph is the 100% of maxHR 194bpm, or below that.

genki

jibberjim wrote:

Indeed, however if the aerodynamic position was good enough to make that difference, then their short TT's would be faster too, the confusion a lot of us have is that the speeds for short durations are relatively very slow compared to the speeds for longer durations - which means the individuals power curve must be incredibly flat.

Differences in av. speed can of course be explained by road surfaces, route selection, aerodynamics, groups etc. but the solo 10mile and 80mile efforts for a normal power curve can't show that much variation unless the 10mile effort is on a much worse road surface or much hillier terrain. Neither which are likely on any 10 course.

To me it looks like your power profile is a bit too steep. If you can do a 23min '10' on the Horsham course in road bike set-up, then I'm surprised that you can't do 20mph+ for 2-3hr rides. On that course I couldn't get much over 24mph when I tried it with non-aero kit and this was at 310W. On the other hand, I'm doing 60-80mile rides at 21-22mph on the same bike at 260-270W and 80% of HR max. It all depends on how efficient you are at fat-burning, aerobic work once you ease back a little from a more anaerobic effort like a '10'.

jibberjim

genki wrote:

To me it looks like your power profile is a bit too steep. If you can do a 23min '10' on the Horsham course in road bike set-up, then I'm surprised that you can't do 20mph+ for 2-3hr rides. On that course I couldn't get much over 24mph when I tried it with non-aero kit and this was at 310W.

For me it takes ~345watts for the 23min's and on a good condition day I'm more typically 23:30.

genki wrote:

On the other hand, I'm doing 60-80mile rides at 21-22mph on the same bike at 260-270W and 80% of HR max. It all depends on how efficient you are at fat-burning, aerobic work once you ease back a little from a more anaerobic effort like a '10'.

So a 10 is not an anaerobic effort - particularly for me who has a small anaerobic work capacity - and I can comfortably do 280watts for 3 or 4 hours, that intensity even in group rides simply doesn't get me above 19mph unless the route is very carefully chosen. 4 hours yesterday in a group at 275watts - averaged 17mph.

Perhaps you very carefully choose your routes to allow those speeds - they're not impossible for those watts, just that to maintain that average speed with junctions, wind, gradients etc. is pretty difficult as even a few junctions and hills will mean you need to push speeds into more than normal for those watts.

Surfr

SBezza wrote:

Surfr wrote:

Although my HR seems naturally high, I can't push it above about 194 and I only seem to hit it on big climbs like Bwlch y Groes. 165 doesn't even register. I fel like I'm working when it goes above 170 and 182 sustained for a 10 mile TT is hard work but not *too* painful. The 190s are when it really starts to hurt. I'm 33 I've been cycling for 2 seasons after 15 years of zero exercise,rubbish diet and smoking if that helps.

Then you have to assume 194 is your HRMax. In your graph is the 100% of maxHR 194bpm, or below that.

The 100% would be calculated by the Garmin I believe, so it's proba bly based on the 220-age calculation which would mean a max of 186 for me at 34 years old. That explains why the registered max is showing as 105% of max as I hit 194 at one point. I'll see if I can manually set the max on the device instead of using the calc.

SBezza

Surfr wrote:

SBezza wrote:

Surfr wrote:

Although my HR seems naturally high, I can't push it above about 194 and I only seem to hit it on big climbs like Bwlch y Groes. 165 doesn't even register. I fel like I'm working when it goes above 170 and 182 sustained for a 10 mile TT is hard work but not *too* painful. The 190s are when it really starts to hurt. I'm 33 I've been cycling for 2 seasons after 15 years of zero exercise,rubbish diet and smoking if that helps.

Then you have to assume 194 is your HRMax. In your graph is the 100% of maxHR 194bpm, or below that.

The 100% would be calculated by the Garmin I believe, so it's proba bly based on the 220-age calculation which would mean a max of 186 for me at 34 years old. That explains why the registered max is showing as 105% of max as I hit 194 at one point. I'll see if I can manually set the max on the device instead of using the calc.

You can set your Max HR in the Garmin, and in Garmin Connect, otherwise it will use the useless 220-age formula

Jeff Jones

jibberjim wrote:

So a 10 is not an anaerobic effort - particularly for me who has a small anaerobic work capacity - and I can comfortably do 280watts for 3 or 4 hours, that intensity even in group rides simply doesn't get me above 19mph unless the route is very carefully chosen. 4 hours yesterday in a group at 275watts - averaged 17mph.

That surprises me a lot. How much climbing? Were you on normal road tyres?

I did a hillyish ride yesterday (4hrs15, 125km, 1400m of climbing, avg 29.4kmh = 18.3mph). All for a mere 208W and I was at the front more than I was sitting on. Normal road bike, not on drops, full winter gear complete with flappy gilet. I'm 70kg so only around 5kg(?) lighter than you.

250W will get me 20mph on an equally hilly solo ride. Faster if it's flatter, and faster again if I'm on the TT bike with training kit.

genki

jibberjim wrote:

- and I can comfortably do 280watts for 3 or 4 hours, that intensity even in group rides simply doesn't get me above 19mph unless the route is very carefully chosen. 4 hours yesterday in a group at 275watts - averaged 17mph.

275 watts in a group and 17mph :? The only way I can picture that is if you have your powermeter excluding zeroes, your bike computer including them and you're losing a lot of time at junctions or doing a lot of freewheeling. At that sort of wattage you should be a lot quicker.

jibberjim

Jeff Jones wrote:

That surprises me a lot. How much climbing? Were you on normal road tyres?

A fair amount of climbing (4 big hills, little flat outside of that) On almost brand new new (so higher rolling resistance than old likely) Rubino Pro's so not fast tyres, but not excessively slow. They also have latex tubes in at the moment (I'm testing the new bright red ones rather than those fragile michelin green ones)

The road surfaces of course are pretty poor in the surrey hills, and there was lots of regrouping required

Jeff Jones wrote:

250W will get me 20mph on an equally hilly solo ride. Faster if it's flatter, and faster again if I'm on the TT bike with training kit.

I do think one of the biggest differences is road surface, so I'm not too surprised there are regional differences.

Jeff Jones

jibberjim wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

That surprises me a lot. How much climbing? Were you on normal road tyres?

A fair amount of climbing (4 big hills, little flat outside of that) On almost brand new new (so higher rolling resistance than old likely) Rubino Pro's so not fast tyres, but not excessively slow. They also have latex tubes in at the moment (I'm testing the new bright red ones rather than those fragile michelin green ones)

The road surfaces of course are pretty poor in the surrey hills, and there was lots of regrouping required.

If you were riding exclusively in badly weather damaged lanes I could understand. But even then I'd expect the average power to be a lot lower simply because you're going to be easing off the gas for corners and descents. Regrouping is going to nail average power/speed as well.

Dare I ask what your normalised power was?

phreak

jibberjim wrote:

So a 10 is not an anaerobic effort - particularly for me who has a small anaerobic work capacity - and I can comfortably do 280watts for 3 or 4 hours, that intensity even in group rides simply doesn't get me above 19mph unless the route is very carefully chosen. 4 hours yesterday in a group at 275watts - averaged 17mph.

Perhaps you very carefully choose your routes to allow those speeds - they're not impossible for those watts, just that to maintain that average speed with junctions, wind, gradients etc. is pretty difficult as even a few junctions and hills will mean you need to push speeds into more than normal for those watts.

Those numbers are interesting. I don't have a power meter on my bike but do on my turbo. On the turbo I usually do 1hr tempo sessions at between 210-220 watts (around 3.5w/kg). The bike computer suggests that wattage equates to around 32km/hr.

I did a solo ride around the Isle of Wight at the weekend averaging 28.5km/hr, which is over 17mph. No massive hills in there but it's a 95km route that's seldom flat but if the above is anything like accurate I'm guessing that is averaging under 200 watts. I would have thought if you could produce an extra 70 watts you'd be going much faster, especially in a group.

jibberjim

Jeff Jones wrote:

Regrouping is going to nail average power/speed as well.

Dare I ask what your normalised power was?

Ah, eek, I mis-remembered, average power was only 240, the 275 was the NP... 240 is still a fair bit higher than your 208 for a lot slower speed...

Jeff Jones

jibberjim wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

Regrouping is going to nail average power/speed as well.

Dare I ask what your normalised power was?

Ah, eek, I mis-remembered, average power was only 240, the 275 was the NP... 240 is still a fair bit higher than your 208 for a lot slower speed...

Ah :-) It's still high but it makes more sense, given our weight difference. I think my NP was 250 yesterday.

The way I think of it is average power is more closely related to average speed, whereas normalised is how hard it was.

StanwaySteve62

OK
I started riding this year at somewhere near 19.5 stone and now down to 16.5.
Looking at some of my HR's a might be pushing a bit hard for my age 48.
So the first activity was me just out some months back and decided after a couple of miles I was at a nice pace and tried to push myself

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/50776056

These ar two typical solo rides

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/51138655
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/51328102

And on sunday I went on first sunday group ride, a couple of miles on my own at the start and the end with a good number of roundabout faffs, but was then pleased to keep with the other guys on the actual ride.
On the flat we were at 23mph and to be honest I would not have been able to go much faster. I say that but was not tired at the end of the ride and not tired later which I sometimes feel
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/56744823

inseine

Looking at some of my HR's a might be pushing a bit hard for my age 48.

I don't know about for your age but the 174 average I saw for an hour at 19mph is pushing as is the 201 max! Ouch!

StanwaySteve62

I feel OK though

a_n_t

sturmey wrote:

Interesting to see your suffering in the shape of a graph.

Have you got a graph from a 25 to show us how it compares?

yep, bit more lumpy.

Airwave

This was'nt my fastest of the year but it was my best effort for a 10 in wet&windy con.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/40312386

This was my best for a 25.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/37836648

Poor road surfaces for both of them.But lovely setting for the 10 in the New Forest,apart from the ponies!

May be my vo2max is around 90%MHR?