the Cyclo cross racing post
Comments
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TGOTB wrote:
I reckon time trialling and cross are the perfect combination. Cross races are basically flat-out, self paced for around an hour, which is pretty similar to riding a 25.antsmithmk wrote:Yep. I got cried down when I said racing time trials is good cross prep but knowing your body and how hard you can push for what length of time is important!
Definitely a view I share - TTing and CX are all-out efforts, and it's all about constantly pushing yourself at a level slightly below the point of blowing up. I haven't ridden a single time trial this year and have found the going that bit harder off-road because of it. On a light-hearted note, 'cross is described on the Urban Dictionary website as "a time trial with intervals" which doesn't sound too far of the mark....
Notts & Derby Round 4 at Heanor yesterday was tough going (but neither cold nor wet as the weather picked up during the day) on a largely fast (with some twisty bits and a couple of long climbs), mostly grassy course with - unusually - zero running sections. Somehow I managed to place 43rd of 65 finishers which exceeded my expectations!
David"It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal0 -
antsmithmk wrote:I raced at the bowl yesterday, it was great fun. First time in the seniors after doing a few novice races last year. I was a little conservative with the pacing as I felt at the finish I could have got a little deeper... but I have been ill over the past two weeks so prep hasn't been great.
The mud was weird... not the usual slop that can fly off. More of a gluey texture that completely blocked my cleats and pedals after lap 3. I was pleased I rode every climb bar the logs, some guys looked to be running max 25 rear gears and they were off and pushing!
Don't think I came last... We shall see when results are posted! Quite a few DNF too.
Still can't remount like I want to... bloody stutter step!
It was my first seniors race on Saturday as well, really enjoyed the course.
I was one of the many DNF's, managed to get the chain jammed between the cassette and spokes with 2 laps to go.
Hopefully it'll go a bit better at the next round.0 -
I take your point, but in terms of training I don't reckon they're *that* dissimilar:VamP wrote:TGOTB wrote:I reckon time trialling and cross are the perfect combination. Cross races are basically flat-out, self paced for around an hour, which is pretty similar to riding a 25.
I dunno dude, my power files for the two are radically different!
Hour duration (depending on TT distance, but 10s/25s are most popular) so no need to worry about eating/drinking
No extended periods of coasting (unlike a road race or the longer track races)
Ability to judge how hard to push yourself is critical
The races themselves are obviously pretty different; in a CX race you repeatedly push yourself into the red and then have to recover quickly, but I've been going a lot better on the TT bike since I started doing exactly this as one of my training sessions. At my "rank amateur" level in TTing, the ability to recover from going slightly too hard in a TT comes in pretty handy; the knowledge that I can do so, gives me the confidence to go harder in the first place.
The only additional fitness element I bring to my training in the Autumn is some reps on power climbs, and even that seems to translate to additional strength the following Summer.
That said, you're consistently quicker round a CX course than I am (and we never had a chance to lock horns on a DC). At the risk of aiding the enemy, can you see what I'm missing?Pannier, 120rpm.0 -
TGOTB wrote:
I take your point, but in terms of training I don't reckon they're *that* dissimilar:VamP wrote:TGOTB wrote:I reckon time trialling and cross are the perfect combination. Cross races are basically flat-out, self paced for around an hour, which is pretty similar to riding a 25.
I dunno dude, my power files for the two are radically different!
Hour duration (depending on TT distance, but 10s/25s are most popular) so no need to worry about eating/drinking
No extended periods of coasting (unlike a road race or the longer track races)
Ability to judge how hard to push yourself is critical
The races themselves are obviously pretty different; in a CX race you repeatedly push yourself into the red and then have to recover quickly, but I've been going a lot better on the TT bike since I started doing exactly this as one of my training sessions. At my "rank amateur" level in TTing, the ability to recover from going slightly too hard in a TT comes in pretty handy; the knowledge that I can do so, gives me the confidence to go harder in the first place.
The only additional fitness element I bring to my training in the Autumn is some reps on power climbs, and even that seems to translate to additional strength the following Summer.
That said, you're consistently quicker round a CX course than I am (and we never had a chance to lock horns on a DC). At the risk of aiding the enemy, can you see what I'm missing?
Well, specificity rules, and in that spirit, what works for someone with my power profile (pursuiter) might not work for someone with yours (I'm guessing very much a tester profile).
I spent six months this year on a solid (and i mean SOLID) diet of threshold and sweetspot, with the stated intent of improving my MMP60. I got maybe 5 watts. But in my first test at 5 minutes I got an extra 40 watts(!) despite no work in that time duration at all! So in other words, I get the best return on my money in the VO2max region, and above. Even more above if I'm honest, so that's where my time goes in the cross season. I still throw in the odd 2x20 here and there, but mainly it's all either VO2max or tabatas and 15/15s or 30/30s.
Looking at my last cross power file I can see 18 spikes above 600 watts, 10 of them above 800. In a 25 I never go above 400 after the start, and mostly just sit at threshold for the duration. So they are very different I would say. I would also wager that you would annihilate me in a time trial, I am very mediocre in that discipline.
Also I don't think cross is always self-paced - it very much depends on how the race unfolds. All the races I have had the most fun in have been a battle with another roughly equally strong rider, with both of us trying to find ways of attacking and dropping the other guy. Sometimes there's three or four playing that same game, and then it gets really tactical. As with road racing, unless you have that anaerobic reserve to dip into and recover quickly, you will not win in such a battle.
I don't believe in keeping training secrets so if you want any detail on any of the above feel free to ask.0 -
Agreed. Despite appearances cross is not like TT at all; not in terms of power application over time duration, not in terms of HR banding, nor in terms of self-regulation of effort.
The course (start, corners, climbs, steps, dismounts) and your competitors don't allow it. If you're racing that is. Some people do just ride around, but even if you repeat the mantra "just ride your own race, do it for fun, go at your own pace" there's no such thing. I tried this at HH last weekend but got caught up in the fun. It's how friendships form.
The obverse is true, the training effect of cross will help you with all your cycling disciplines: TT'ing, climbing, sprinting, cornering.
I'm sure you've all seen the "Insanity" training commercial on late night TV. It's all about max intervals. Cross is insanity embodied in a bike race.When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.0 -
Actually, I think we're all saying the same thing in slightly different ways. What I found this Summer was that, for me, short hard intervals are way more effective for TT training than things like 2x20, 1x60 etc. In fact I think the only time I ever did a consistent race-duration effort was in a race, but the times were way quicker.Pannier, 120rpm.0
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TGOTB wrote:Actually, I think we're all saying the same thing in slightly different ways. What I found this Summer was that, for me, short hard intervals are way more effective for TT training than things like 2x20, 1x60 etc. In fact I think the only time I ever did a consistent race-duration effort was in a race, but the times were way quicker.
Hah, just had a peek at the CCXL results from MK and wow, you had a flyer! Carry on as you were with your training I would say 8)0 -
Thanks! Even though I always seem to go well on that course, I was still quite surprised myself.
Getting there four hours before the race (for the kids' races) also helped, as I'd seen how the course was deteriorating; as a result I was on mud tyres (first outing for the rims I bought on your recommendation) whereas most of the riders around me at the start seemed to be on intermediates.
How was Baldock?Pannier, 120rpm.0 -
I went the other way at Baldock. While everyone was on intermediates I went to file treads. Worked great until a lap from the end when in a corner that had previously been flat out they just gave and i went flying!
Second race I felt a bit sub-par. I wonder why
Welwyn on Saturday?0 -
Can't make Welwyn I'm afraid; real shame, as it could be pretty good after all this rain. Have fun!Pannier, 120rpm.0
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devhads wrote:Well, I thought the mood was that race commissaires should get paid = more money in the sport
British Cycling could put on more commissaire courses that's for sure. After this weekend's cancellation I looked in to training up myself but it seems there was one training course this year which was last week.
Sorry to hark back 11 days here, but this thread has only just been pointed out to me...
I also looked into this after the CL cancellation and also being aware of how close the EL race at Hog Hill and the LL race at Gunpowder Park also came to being cancelled, and emailed both EL and CL people about it. From what I can gather the courses that were run were not greatly attended, but I reckon I could get a small number of people to attend (maybe 3-5) which is probably as many as these courses get anyway. Unfortunately nobody was able to tell me what it would take to arrange it. Did you speak to BC directly? - with enough interest, I'm sure somebody could be persuaded to run a course. Do you know of anyone else who'd be interest if we poll for numbers? Feel free to PM me to discuss if you're interested.
Thanks0 -
The course I saw advertised was billed as 'commissaire training'... I assumed this was training for commissaires, like teacher training is for teachers. I now understand that it was training to become a commissaire.... perhaps if it was clearer more might become qualified?0
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Did you speak to BC directly?
No just looked it up on BC website.
Having just revisited the site it is no longer showing any cross commissaire courses available, just an MTB/DH/4X commissaire course. I imagine it may be too late to get organised for this season now but if they run them before the season each year I will have a look out next summer.0 -
Had a much better race today, didn't go off as hard and found the recovery points on the first lap. I managed the whole race without being overtaken. Which also resulted in me having to do the full six laps !
Only problem was a choke point right at the start of the first lap slowed everyone down and as I'd held back to pace myself I got mightily held up.
That said we had timing chips this race so I can at least compare my lap times to get an idea of how I did.0 -
Who went to Shrewsbury? VamP? AndyP? How was it?Pannier, 120rpm.0
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I had a weekend off, mainly because I forgot Happy Valley was on and said yes to my parents coming up to visit the grandchildren, only to realise later that it was yesterday and not next weekend.
Looks like you did very well yesterday, TGOTB, well done.0 -
Thanks, it was a good tester's course :-)Pannier, 120rpm.0
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I was at Graves Park in Sheffield yesterday, good event and quite a challenging course (not to mention a hard slog up to race HQ from the railway station!) with some slippery off-camber stuff. Surprisingly warm, too. I was quite grateful for the fact that I'm getting much better at running with the bike these days. Couldn't quite get the tyre pressures right, way too high on the practice lap and ended up a tad too soft for the actual race - the back wheel was a bit sketchy on tight corners. Also my bibshorts had a minor wardrobe malfunction which was kindly pointed out to me upon getting lapped. :oops:
David"It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal0 -
TGOTB wrote:Who went to Shrewsbury? VamP? AndyP? How was it?
Yeah I went. Fast and furious and really rather slippy. I was getting good grip in rehearsals, but the course tore up fairly quickly, and I hit the deck hard three times on lap one, before I woke up to reality and adjusted my cornering speed. Went alright after that but it's hard to get a result when you give away so much on first lap.
Good ride in Happy Valley (always cracks me up
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Really good going at HV, bravo! It is a tester's course, a couple years ago it was dry grass and the only time I've beat guys who usually finish a couple slots ahead of me (e.g. Phil M etc). In 2012 there were no barriers and no clipping out - not a purists course but good to have some variety. Stanmer was often the same. Did they have barriers?
VamP, I was not surprised at your race report. You usually tear that course a new one. Hope you're not injured.
Frankly gents after this weekend and the forecast for the week, the rest of the season is going to be wet and boggy. Can you imagine the state of Grafham water, Mistley or Davey Down (or anywhere else that acts as nature's drain hole) at the moment? A disc bike with a single ring is looking very sensible...When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.0 -
FransJacques wrote:
VamP, I was not surprised at your race report. You usually tear that course a new one. Hope you're not injured.
You might be thinking of Welwyn, where I also hit the deck hard on lap 1, this was on Saturday. I appear to be acquiring some expertise in this regard 
No injuries thankfully.0 -
No barriers at HV, and no reason to unclip more than one foot at a time; when it wasn't about power it was about how fast you dared to take the sweeping bends (the correct answer mostly being pretty fast). As you say, not a course for purists, but no-one seemed to be complaining!
Not half as sensible as two disc bikes with single rings. According to UPS, my second set of Super Muds will be arriving tomorrow :-) VamP has a pressure washer though, so he'll be leaving us for dead (if he can stay upright).FransJacques wrote:Frankly gents after this weekend and the forecast for the week, the rest of the season is going to be wet and boggy. Can you imagine the state of Grafham water, Mistley or Davey Down (or anywhere else that acts as nature's drain hole) at the moment? A disc bike with a single ring is looking very sensible...Pannier, 120rpm.0 -
Anyone going to Zappis at Culham Park this weekend and got any tips for the course?
Will be my first outing of the year and feeling woefully underprepared.....0 -
TGOTB wrote:No barriers at HV, and no reason to unclip more than one foot at a time; when it wasn't about power it was about how fast you dared to take the sweeping bends (the correct answer mostly being pretty fast). As you say, not a course for purists, but no-one seemed to be complaining!
Not half as sensible as two disc bikes with single rings. According to UPS, my second set of Super Muds will be arriving tomorrow :-) VamP has a pressure washer though, so he'll be leaving us for dead (if he can stay upright).FransJacques wrote:Frankly gents after this weekend and the forecast for the week, the rest of the season is going to be wet and boggy. Can you imagine the state of Grafham water, Mistley or Davey Down (or anywhere else that acts as nature's drain hole) at the moment? A disc bike with a single ring is looking very sensible...
I think if I can get you two to operate my pressure washer I'll do well.0 -
I don't know guys, I'm not sure he'll get the traction on his pressure washer ...0
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If he wants me to operate it for him, he can't complain about where I stick it :twisted:PuttyKnees wrote:I don't know guys, I'm not sure he'll get the traction on his pressure washer ...
Culham - Great venue, I'll be there in the V40s (and with a rider in the U10s). Zappi's always put on a great event; depending which race you're doing, take some warm/waterproof kit and watch one or two of the others if you can. It's sandy, so might be well drained, but given the weather this week you'd be wise to take mud tyres if you have them. There's a long run-up, so definitely fit studs if you can...Pannier, 120rpm.0 -
shazzz wrote:Anyone going to Zappis at Culham Park this weekend and got any tips for the course?
Will be my first outing of the year and feeling woefully underprepared.....
Yep I'll be there, also in V40. Never ridden it so can't help you there but only my second race of the season so equally unprepared.0 -
Thanks. I'll probably ride in the novices given lack of prep and first outing this year but planning to hang around and watch the junior/ vets race to pick up some skillz tips.
Will now go and turn the garage upside down in search of those studs...0 -
If you can't find them, lots of people (myself included) use football boot studs. Cheap as chips from Sports Direct (and other sports shops, presumably).Pannier, 120rpm.0
