the Cyclo cross racing post

tgotb

97th choice wrote:

Well the series I have entered only scores 6 from 8. I don't know whether that is deliberate to allow people to organise their own races and attend others? or simply to allow people to miss a race or two over the season.

Quite a lot of leagues award average points to any rider who misses a race to help organise it. If necessary you could tweak that (average of best n results, for instance), but seems quite an effective way to avoid penalising helpers.

In any series I've been involved with organising, the best 6 of 8 thing (or whatever numbers are decided on) is to allow people to miss races, have gear failure etc, without penalising them excessively. If you don't do that, people who can't make every single race are likely to lose interest in the series. The only real requirement is to count more than half the races, so you never end up with an unbreakable tie for 1st place between two riders who have never raced each other. In the last (TT) series I organised, the number of counting races was automatically reduced if individual races had to be cancelled.

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

is British Cycling or anyone else ever going to pump money in Cyclocross in the UK?

I think this is a red herring, the sport doesn't particularly need the money. We have growing numbers of participants, and an incredible grass-roots vibe with none of the snobery of road racing, where parents cheer on their kids and then jump on their bikes to race with their kids cheering back. Cross is almost certainly the safest form of cycle racing, and newcomers can (and frequently do) turn up and have a go, on bikes they pulled out of the back of their shed. Entry fees are quite reasonable, and considerably less than the entry fees for triathlons, sportives or even most running races; even this year's National Championships only cost £20 to enter. If BC were to inject a load of money, where would it be spent?

My club is keen to promote a cyclocross event, and we have enough members to make it happen; at the moment, the biggest challenge is finding a decent venue, and that's not something that's going to be solved with money...

devhads

I think this is a red herring, the sport doesn't particularly need the money. We have growing numbers of participants, and an incredible grass-roots vibe with none of the snobery of road racing, where parents cheer on their kids and then jump on their bikes to race with their kids cheering back. Cross is almost certainly the safest form of cycle racing, and newcomers can (and frequently do) turn up and have a go, on bikes they pulled out of the back of their shed.

Absolutely spot on. Cyclocross is the first racing I ever did, have done since and probably will do for all those reasons. I take my son to other types of racing and with the exception of grass track there just isn't the same atmosphere or feeling of we're all in this together. Road circuit racing even at youth level is a far more cut throat affair and I believe this is down to the money involved. I see youth riders on road bikes that even I would struggle to afford for myself. Lack of money is not the problem it's a lack of volunteers and probably venues.


I volunteer at my son's club because without the coaches volunteering their time week in week out he wouldn't have a hobby, plain and simple. So I volunteer for events they hold that he competes in and even ones he doesn't. Similar to what TGOTB witnessed we spent a great morning together marshalling a club road race on a roundabout and will be out at 8am on Saturday helping set up a course for a cyclocross event. I'm not boasting or wanting a medal for any of this, just giving something back to cycling in whatever small way I can. I don't have long established association with cycling or a club but I've quickly learnt that these things don't just miraculously happen on their own.

I really hope cyclocross doesn't get commercialised. I've only ever done a couple of sportives and whilst they were good fun for what they were I'd hate for cyclocross to get like that.

As for the growing popularity and field sizes, what are people's thoughts on having a US style category system?

ugo.santalucia

Well, I thought the mood was that race commissaires should get paid = more money in the sport etc. etc...
One of the problems of a sport with no money is that it is vulnerable... if for any reason the public authorities decide the race is a no go, you've got nothing to stand up... if you bring money to the economy then you are always welcome anywhere.
Of course I agree "cash strapped" sports are more fun

devhads

Well, I thought the mood was that race commissaires should get paid = more money in the sport

British Cycling could put on more commissaire courses that's for sure. After this weekend's cancellation I looked in to training up myself but it seems there was one training course this year which was last week.

cyclingsheep

TGOTB wrote:

My club is keen to promote a cyclocross event, and we have enough members to make it happen; at the moment, the biggest challenge is finding a decent venue, and that's not something that's going to be solved with money...

It would be great if you could get one sorted in Esher Common, I've always thought that'd be a fantastic venue for a race. You could have some sections on the playing field and some tough climbs in the trees with only a small section closed off while still allowing dog walkers plenty of access.

tgotb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Well, I thought the mood was that race commissaires should get paid = more money in the sport etc. etc...

Paying sports officials "real" money (as opposed to smaller amounts to cover costs and maybe a nice meal out) can be a bit dangerous. A huge number of sports are dominated by blazer-wearing officials who think they're bigger than the sport, and paying them just seems to exacerbate this. We saw this (on top of all the other issues) with the last set of people running the UCI, but it also happens at grassroots level.

As an example I used to be quite heavily involved (as a volunteer/competitor) with running sailing competitions, and for some international events (in a sport which is traditionally self-policing) we were obliged to have an international jury. We had to pay for these guys to fly to the venue and stay in hotels far flashier than we could afford as competitors. The money for this came out of the entry fee, and they added exactly zero value to the event. Even worse, they often detracted from it by imposing silly extra rulings (and, one one memorable occasion, unwarranted and unfair penalties); we got the impression they did this to justify their presence at the event. The whole thing was one big gravy train.

We absolutely musn't take volunteers for granted, and if the only way to run an event is by paying certain officials, that's what we have to do, but it does come with an undesirable downside.

tgotb

cyclingsheep wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

My club is keen to promote a cyclocross event, and we have enough members to make it happen; at the moment, the biggest challenge is finding a decent venue, and that's not something that's going to be solved with money...

It would be great if you could get one sorted in Esher Common, I've always thought that'd be a fantastic venue for a race. You could have some sections on the playing field and some tough climbs in the trees with only a small section closed off while still allowing dog walkers plenty of access.

Thank you, I'll investigate :-)

ugo.santalucia

+1 for Esher common... that's a course I know well... lots of sand as well, can be quite technical

FransJacques

Baldock on Saturday anyone? For some reason it is on the EL site but not part of the league...bizarre.

Never ridden it before but the day works for me as I cannot ride HH on Sunday...

devhads

I'm going but I pre-entered and it may be a risk for you to travel up there and you don't get a ride. Entry is limited to 100 I think and as of yesterday there was 36 places left in the combined S/V/W race. Seeing as Eastern league at the last round got 180 entries across these three categories it may be tight. There's always Central league at Milton Keynes who never turn anyone away.

You'd be very welcome if you do decide to come, it's my son's club's event.

VamP

I will be there, racing and marshalling. It's our club's event, traditionally it has been in the Eastern calendar, but this year it's not included as it's running under a different format..

Eastern League has 18 points scoring rounds this year, so it's not like there is a shortage

We are also holding a club championship for club members only, earlier in the day, so I will be riding two races - ouchie.

If you do decide to come down FJ, I would suggest to get there early, as devhads says, you could end up without a ride otherwise. Also, I am fairly certain I remember racing against you at Baldock a couple of years back - you'll recognize it when you see it, lots of fast grass track like corners.

tgotb

Milton Keynes for me (and Hog Hill on Sunday if the legs hold up) but Baldock sounds like a fun course, I'll file that one away for another time :-)

cyclingsheep

devhads wrote:

I'm going but I pre-entered and it may be a risk for you to travel up there and you don't get a ride. Entry is limited to 100 I think and as of yesterday there was 36 places left in the combined S/V/W race. Seeing as Eastern league at the last round got 180 entries across these three categories it may be tight. There's always Central league at Milton Keynes who never turn anyone away.

You'd be very welcome if you do decide to come, it's my son's club's event.

So we have to wait another few weeks to lock horns then? I'm at Milton Keynes this weekend

devhads

So we have to wait another few weeks to lock horns then? I'm at Milton Keynes this weekend

Not if you come up to Welwyn for the Eastern league event there next weekend. It's at the same venue as the Central league one.

I'm not sure how many Central we'll actually get to this year, we've sort of thrown our lot in to the Eastern this season. It was always a toss up living as we do on the border of both regions and with the Eastern changing their format from the vets being for over 45s to over 40s we've plumped more for their races. Will still try and get to some Central though

tgotb

devhads wrote:

Not if you come up to Welwyn for the Eastern league event there next weekend. It's at the same venue as the Central league one.

Fantastic venue, one of my favourites :-)

Sadly I can't get there next weekend, but delighted to see the Central league one's just been moved to a Saturday so it no longer clashes with the NT race in Derby.

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

devhads wrote:

Not if you come up to Welwyn for the Eastern league event there next weekend. It's at the same venue as the Central league one.

Fantastic venue, one of my favourites :-)

Sadly I can't get there next weekend, but delighted to see the Central league one's just been moved to a Saturday so it no longer clashes with the NT race in Derby.

That is in fact great news. Likewise I really like the course at Welwyn.

tgotb

VamP wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

devhads wrote:

Not if you come up to Welwyn for the Eastern league event there next weekend. It's at the same venue as the Central league one.

Fantastic venue, one of my favourites :-)

Sadly I can't get there next weekend, but delighted to see the Central league one's just been moved to a Saturday so it no longer clashes with the NT race in Derby.

That is in fact great news. Likewise I really like the course at Welwyn.

I'm working on the basis that we won't actually have to ride our bikes at Derby, so tired legs shouldn't be an issue. I may even remove the saddle and drivetrain from my bike to save weight...

Chris James

devhads wrote:

Road circuit racing even at youth level is a far more cut throat affair and I believe this is down to the money involved. I see youth riders on road bikes that even I would struggle to afford for myself.

Yeah, my eldest regularly finished positions 2-4 in the Yorkshire cross league, so I took him to a circuit race. He is 8 and went on his Islabikes Beinn, so I pumped up his tyres hard and restricted his top gear - a bit of a bummer as his 11 tooth cog was a gnat's chuff over the max, so he had to go down to a 13 tooth - i.e. almost 20% lower gearing than he COULD have ran.

He was instantly dropped by the 10 year olds they had lumped in his race as they didn't have enough number to run separate cat d and E races .

Some of the 10 year olds were massive and were riding bikes with 700c deep section carbon fibre wheel, and chainsets with the precise number of teeth to hit the upper ceiling on gearing. The circuit had a downhill where 24 inch wheels with knobblies were never going to keep pace with 700c road tyres, even if he hadn't been handicapped by the gearing.

The great thing about cyclocross racing is that people are always involved in the racing, bike handling is very important, and equipment matters much less. Even on the admin front , there is extra faff for circuit racing as you need a race licence.

I consider myself a roadie, but the circuit race was noticeable for the much lower numbers of people competing ( a typical Yorkshire Points cross race would get around 60 under 10s, there were about a dozen in the circuit race), their seeming lack of enjoyment, and the importance of equipment.

To be honest, I don't really think that BC needs to put more money into cross. If anything, I would prefer it if BC got out of cross altogether and we went back to something like the BCCA days.

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

VamP wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

devhads wrote:

Not if you come up to Welwyn for the Eastern league event there next weekend. It's at the same venue as the Central league one.

Fantastic venue, one of my favourites :-)

Sadly I can't get there next weekend, but delighted to see the Central league one's just been moved to a Saturday so it no longer clashes with the NT race in Derby.

That is in fact great news. Likewise I really like the course at Welwyn.

I'm working on the basis that we won't actually have to ride our bikes at Derby, so tired legs shouldn't be an issue. I may even remove the saddle and drivetrain from my bike to save weight...

LOL
Wonder how much you could take off and still technically have a bike. The wheels might be a bit too much.

DavidBelcher

Chris James wrote:

If anything, I would prefer it if BC got out of cross altogether and we went back to something like the BCCA days.

As long as they don't revert to the old BCCA kit regulations. Only white socks permitted....in CX. Whose bright idea was that? There's only so much of my salary I'm prepared to squander on cycling socks and/or washing powder. :roll:

David

cyclingsheep

Awesome! First race of the season for me this year at MK Bowl. Fantastic course set up by Team MK with so real CX weather thrown in for good measure. Was forced to run up every hill for the last lap and a half due to a mechanical but otherwise a great ride.....bring on the next round

antsmithmk

I raced at the bowl yesterday, it was great fun. First time in the seniors after doing a few novice races last year. I was a little conservative with the pacing as I felt at the finish I could have got a little deeper... but I have been ill over the past two weeks so prep hasn't been great.

The mud was weird... not the usual slop that can fly off. More of a gluey texture that completely blocked my cleats and pedals after lap 3. I was pleased I rode every climb bar the logs, some guys looked to be running max 25 rear gears and they were off and pushing!

Don't think I came last... We shall see when results are posted! Quite a few DNF too.

Still can't remount like I want to... bloody stutter step!

cyclingsheep

antsmithmk wrote:

I raced at the bowl yesterday, it was great fun. First time in the seniors after doing a few novice races last year. I was a little conservative with the pacing as I felt at the finish I could have got a little deeper... but I have been ill over the past two weeks so prep hasn't been great.

The mud was weird... not the usual slop that can fly off. More of a gluey texture that completely blocked my cleats and pedals after lap 3. I was pleased I rode every climb bar the logs, some guys looked to be running max 25 rear gears and they were off and pushing!

Don't think I came last... We shall see when results are posted! Quite a few DNF too.

Still can't remount like I want to... bloody stutter step!

I had to run up them for the last lap and a half due to a mechanical but was more than holding my own on the down hills and off camber corners. Great course. Still have my stutter step too......grrr

antsmithmk

What mechanical did you have? My bike was making a terrible noise towards the end but kept going!

cyclingsheep

antsmithmk wrote:

What mechanical did you have? My bike was making a terrible noise towards the end but kept going!

Every time I had to power up a climb the chain jammed at the bottom of the front chain ring. Haven't figured out why yet. If I had enough momentum I could back pedal an eighth of a turn and it'd clear for a few pedals but ultimately would jam again. Quicker to get off and run than piss about with it but not as fast as riding up so dropped from the group I was passing into a battle to stay ahead of people I'd already passed.

antsmithmk

Sounds odd. Might be the rear derailleur being clogged stopping the chain coming off the bottom of the chain ring as it had nowhere to go? Or could be just the volume of mud!!!

97th choice

Did my first race today, damn it was fun but I need a whole new level of fitness. I went off wayyyyy too fast on the first lap or so then went steadily backwards. Luckily I was lapped just before the start of my final lap, so only had to do five laps.

antsmithmk

Yep. I got cried down when I said racing time trials is good cross prep but knowing your body and how hard you can push for what length of time is important!

tgotb

antsmithmk wrote:

Yep. I got cried down when I said racing time trials is good cross prep but knowing your body and how hard you can push for what length of time is important!

I reckon time trialling and cross are the perfect combination. Cross races are basically flat-out, self paced for around an hour, which is pretty similar to riding a 25. Contrast with road racing, where a lot of the time is spent coasting, and someone else dictates the pace. I took something like an extra 30W into this year's TT season, off the back of the last CX season, and haven't needed to do much more than a few interval sessions to convert back to CX.

Loved the racing at MK. Rain held off long enough for the kids to race on dry grass, and then turned things a bit more slippery for the Vets. Great course with lots of power climbs and fast turns, and a decent wide track with plenty of overtaking opportunities to keep the racing alive.