Interval training to boost TT performance?
Comments
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freehub wrote:100 mile rides ain't that long, only 30 miles more than the usual max length of a road race.
Most of the road races you'll be doing will be less than 2 1/2 hours for quite some time, (distance is irrelevant since that depends on speed) so no, until you get very, very good you won't be doing 145 mile races.freehub wrote:I see what people are saying but atm I cannot cut long rides out.
Indeed, don't! Do what you enjoy, but don't try and pretend it's relevant!Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Pross wrote:Quality over quantity really is something to consider.
I do one, yes ONE 2x20 session a week plus a midweek 10 and weekend 25.
Thats it, nothing else. Now work out how many miles that is?
oh yeah, I'm PB'ing almost every event
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But a_n_t , that's no fun, it's ok if your starting a part time job in cycling as a pro.
I've being doing 25:15 for a ten whilst at the same time doing lots of cycling I enjoy.
I'm not really going to be racing anymore this year.
I'm just going to start going onto this plan and seeing what happens, although tomoz I'm doing a steady long ride and TT thursday. I'm recovering quickly atm which is something that seems to not happen often so either it will continue, or I just have to take advantage of it.
Monday - Threshold training 4x 5.3 miles loop
Tuesday - Hardish training ride possibly in a group (TT week - Interval training (10x 4:4)
Wednesday - rest
Thursday - interval training (10x 4:4) (TT week - 48 miles steadyish + 10 mile TT)
Friday - rest
Saturday - Long ride or chaingang.
Although you cannot say 100 mile rides is not irrelevant, what if I decide to do a 100 mile tt or more than one next year? It's not something I feel I want to do yet, but next year providing I keep cycling I will be faster than I am now and if I've got a good setup and some tri bars I might give it a go.
The only reason my club rides are always over 100 miles is because I ride to the start, so that's about 20-25 miles added on.0 -
More isn't always better. As Jeff said - 10 x 4 min intervals won't help you and can harm you (your TT performance).
It may seem like you're not doing much by doing less, but if done correctly, you don;t need to do more than 4 or 5 intervals in a session. Or so my coach tells me 8)0 -
i`m always staggered that the amount of people who write in this section , telling other people where they are going wrong.
there is only one person writting in this thread ,who`s performances would lead me to think , he knows what he`s talking about.
as for the rest of you , when i meet you at champions night . i `ll respect your oppinions.
sorryconstantly reavalueating the situation and altering the perceived parameters accordingly0 -
sub55 wrote:i`m always staggered that the amount of people who write in this section , telling other people where they are going wrong.
there is only one person writting in this thread ,who`s performances would lead me to think , he knows what he`s talking about.
as for the rest of you , when i meet you at champions night . i `ll respect your oppinions.
sorry
There are very few on here in comparison to the questions posed that have the experience that Jeff has therefore are you really suggesting that they should be left to answer every question. If that's the case then you might as well tell Jeff that he can close the forum now as this will be the most stagnant and boring forum out there.
When we make suggestions, comments, express our views or our understanding of an issue we put out there and if we get shot down we learn a valuable lesson in the process. That's worth having. What I think your post does is to suggest that we are all somehow so stupid that we need saved from anyone that isn't an expert because we can't sift the information given. I know Jeff's pedigree therefore I have followed this thread with great interest however it wouldn't stop me commenting on this thread I felt like it. As I say something really stupid I'm sure someone will correct me and I will have learned something. If this forum isn't about learning then what the reason for it's existence 0 -
Pokerface wrote:More isn't always better. As Jeff said - 10 x 4 min intervals won't help you and can harm you (your TT performance).
It may seem like you're not doing much by doing less, but if done correctly, you don;t need to do more than 4 or 5 intervals in a session. Or so my coach tells me 8)
How do you define between doing them wrong or right?
I'd be happy doing 4 or 5 interval sessions, but what I would like to incorporate into this is steady cycling before and after it, maybe as much as 20 miles steady after if that is ok?
Only reason I want to put more in is for the enjoyment of cycling and because it uses some spare time up.
What I got from Jef was that 10x4min was too much at first, start low and work up, so perhaps 10 maybe ok when I improve.0 -
freehub wrote:Pokerface wrote:More isn't always better. As Jeff said - 10 x 4 min intervals won't help you and can harm you (your TT performance).
It may seem like you're not doing much by doing less, but if done correctly, you don;t need to do more than 4 or 5 intervals in a session. Or so my coach tells me 8)
How do you define between doing them wrong or right?
I'd be happy doing 4 or 5 interval sessions, but what I would like to incorporate into this is steady cycling before and after it, maybe as much as 20 miles steady after if that is ok?
Only reason I want to put more in is for the enjoyment of cycling and because it uses some spare time up.
What I got from Jef was that 10x4min was too much at first, start low and work up, so perhaps 10 maybe ok when I improve.
Well you're not alone there as I took it to mean that you had give your body time to adapt to working at that effort and thus building slowly was the way to go. The other way to do the same thing is to cut the time of the work interval and keep the number of intervals the same and and then buid the time slowly. As they say there are many ways to skin a cat.
Are v02 max intervals really irrelevant to time trialling? This is me just thinking out loud so help me here if I'm way out. If v02 max represents the extent of your potential and FTP a ceiling below this then would raising v02 max not help to raise the FTP ceiling and thus make gains at the margins more attainable? I'm not suggesting they are a mainstay of such a programme but I would have thought as part of the training mix they could be quite useful.0 -
Sub55 - I'm not sure who you are referring to - but I'm just adding the advice that was given to me (by my National Team Coach). I'm riding in the World Championships (Paracycling) for Ireland in a few weeks and am looking to get on the podium, so I'm not sure if that qualifies me to have an opinion or not...
Will - I've been told that these sort of intervals are fine as part of a longer ride.
As my coach says - if you ride tempo all day, you'll get really good at riding tempo.
And you need different types of training for different types of events. TT training will be slightly different that RR training, etc.
As for doing the intervals right - I can't tell YOU how to do them right. For me, doing them right means staying in a prescribed power zone and maintaining a certain wattage. You don't have a Power meter - so I don't know how you would determine if you've done it right.
Maybe one of the other 'experts' can weigh in.0 -
freehub wrote:But a_n_t , that's no fun, it's ok if your starting a part time job in cycling as a pro.
It's plenty fun when you have a 6 month old baby at home
My point is quality not quantity. But what do I know, I'm only a sub58. :roll:0 -
Murr X wrote:Really you can train shorter durations hard and effectively or you can train longer and very easy but without getting the physiological adaptations needed for racing. Attempting both will not work well and much better gains are to be made by resting more and training harder when required.
I will strongly dispute this, well maybe if you do your endurance rides slow you might not improve. Why does everyone think endurance rides should be done slow. They might be done at a lower HR but they are generally not slow, well mine are not anyhow.
Subb55, Jeff has a fantastic pedigree, and is a very fast rider, but there are some on here that aren't too far behind. I will give someone pointers as to how they might improve based on what has helped me, but different riders will respond differently to different stimuli.
Will you need to ask what you want to do well at, if it is short TT's, you need to do more intensity and more rest, if you want to do the longer distances, endurance plays a vital role in this. If you are not going to be racing, why bother trying to get better at TT's, just enjoy your riding.0 -
doyler78 wrote:Are v02 max intervals really irrelevant to time trialling? This is me just thinking out loud so help me here if I'm way out. If v02 max represents the extent of your potential and FTP a ceiling below this then would raising v02 max not help to raise the FTP ceiling and thus make gains at the margins more attainable? I'm not suggesting they are a mainstay of such a programme but I would have thought as part of the training mix they could be quite useful.
Yes they are, don't forget you ride a 10 at a higher power level than FTP, you need to get the body used to riding at this intensity. When I do them I normally do 4 x 5 mins, and the power they are done at would be a far bit over my 20 min power, let alone my FTP.
If done correctly you shouldn't be able to do 10 of them, I struggle to complete 4 of the horrible things.0 -
a_n_t wrote:freehub wrote:But a_n_t , that's no fun, it's ok if your starting a part time job in cycling as a pro.
It's plenty fun when you have a 6 month old baby at home
My point is quality not quantity. But what do I know, I'm only a sub58. :roll:
Now now, there is no need for that........
I know it's quality not quantity, I've never gone for quantity, I think this quantity argument is for people who go out constantly hammering it at 100% doing rides say after day after day after day with no rest.
When I've done fast riders the max distance is only around 70 miles.
Also, when I'm in Manchester, it's very rare the distance is over 80 miles, although I reckon with winter coming, it'll be, hills, long distance.
In Manchester I ride Saturdays and Sundays, doing maybe 60 on Saturday and 70 on Sunday.
Now I have to say this but I hope people don't get the impression I am not listening to them, if I was not I would not be implementing threshold and interval training. I've said why I don't want to give up the long rides.0 -
Will - when you go one about doing 175 mile rides - you give the impression that you are doing QUANTITY. Same with wanting to do 10 intervals in a session, etc - that is quantity over quality.
Quality means you would be doing 4 or 5 intervals (let's just say as hard as you can) - but if you did them right, you shouldn't have the energy to hit the same level on subsequent intervals. But as I said, hard to judge without a power meter, etc.
Any good coach will probably tell you it's a mix of long and short rides, of endurance and sprint intervals, etc that will be good. But it depends on your goals.
You're on the right track. Just keep an eye on your goals and results. If you're not getting what you want, then change your plan.0 -
SBezza wrote:doyler78 wrote:Are v02 max intervals really irrelevant to time trialling? This is me just thinking out loud so help me here if I'm way out. If v02 max represents the extent of your potential and FTP a ceiling below this then would raising v02 max not help to raise the FTP ceiling and thus make gains at the margins more attainable? I'm not suggesting they are a mainstay of such a programme but I would have thought as part of the training mix they could be quite useful.
Yes they are, don't forget you ride a 10 at a higher power level than FTP, you need to get the body used to riding at this intensity. When I do them I normally do 4 x 5 mins, and the power they are done at would be a far bit over my 20 min power, let alone my FTP.
If done correctly you shouldn't be able to do 10 of them, I struggle to complete 4 of the horrible things.
Have I missed something as you are saying that v02 max intervals are irrelevant and then go on to make the case for including them :?
Surely that depends on how hard you do them. 6x6 or 8x5 are well known v02 max interval training sessions so that's a work interval period of 36 and 40 minutes respectively yet 10x4 is 40 minutes of work interval as well so is it really that impossible?0 -
sub55 wrote:i`m always staggered that the amount of people who write in this section , telling other people where they are going wrong.
there is only one person writting in this thread ,who`s performances would lead me to think , he knows what he`s talking about.
as for the rest of you , when i meet you at champions night . i `ll respect your oppinions.
sorry
OK so presumably all those professional coaches who coach the champions but who weren't international standard themselves know nothing? There are plenty of people on here who I would take advice from and then decide for myself if it works or not. Besides, pretty much everyone has agreed with or supplemented Jeff's own comments.0 -
I turn my back for just a moment and...
0) I'm not a coach and I'm not getting into a debate about qualifications. There's plenty of knowledgable folks + agreement on this thread anyway.
The reason I weighed in is because I was a bit like Will when I started cycling. Lots of spare time, lots of miles, more is faster, intervals too, I'm obviously genetically limited that's why I'll never go quicker, I can't sprint, how do these time triallists go so bloody fast? (I still can't sprint)
Any advice and coaching I got was based on 'do lots', and 400-500 mile weeks were pretty regular. I was OKish but never ever fresh and well below my potential. I got dropped so many times in the first 30 miles of 100 mile road races and would still finish at my own pace, thinking 'next time' as long as I could do more training. And 'if I last halfway then my endurance will kick in and I'll be fine'.
Over time I learned, and I've probably learned more in the last 3 years than I did in my first 18 years as a racer.
I'm kinda hoping that Will won't take that long
1) Will wanted to know how he could improve his TT performance and I gave him a pretty simple but in my experience very effective workout. Like anything, it's one that you have to do for weeks to see improvement, as long as you don't knacker yourself with other training.
Of course you can vary the length and intensity of it, doing it as 2 x 20, 1 x 40, 1 x 80 or whatever. I just like to do an hour at a pace that's under full-on TT effort, but still hard
2) 10 x 4min - even if you build up to this number gradually, I reckon you'll struggle beyond about 5-6. And I'd argue it's pointless to do more because the intensity will drop off, so you're not training what you set out to do. All you want in training is a stimulus to improve, not batter yourself to death.
3) To me, Will's "4 days on" training program seems a sensible enough plan for a typical week bit it's also got to be worked out over weeks and months of gradual build up to be really effective.Jeff Jones
Product manager, Sports0 -
From what I've heard VO2 intervals have to be very hard (and thereby fewish in number) becuase half the point is to raise your blood pressure - this doesnt happen unless you go pretty damn hard and keep up there for at least more than 2 minutes - there of the popular 5 x 4:4.
Obviously you can do more but like Jeff says you'll probably not be able to hold the effort...doing regular sessions like this I got a 12.5% improvement in power at max HR and a similar increase at threshhold. doing 2 x 20s shifted my threshhold closer to my max to so I got a double whammy so to speak! And all on one session of each a week for 14 weeks.
Add one long steady session and you 've a nice mix for most people - once you've got past the beginner stage, and just 2 good focused sessions a week will most likely improve most TT times...0 -
Hi SBezza,SBezza wrote:Murr X wrote:Really you can train shorter durations hard and effectively or you can train longer and very easy but without getting the physiological adaptations needed for racing. Attempting both will not work well and much better gains are to be made by resting more and training harder when required.
I will strongly dispute this, well maybe if you do your endurance rides slow you might not improve. Why does everyone think endurance rides should be done slow. They might be done at a lower HR but they are generally not slow, well mine are not anyhow.
Subb55, Jeff has a fantastic pedigree, and is a very fast rider, but there are some on here that aren't too far behind. I will give someone pointers as to how they might improve based on what has helped me, but different riders will respond differently to different stimuli.
Will you need to ask what you want to do well at, if it is short TT's, you need to do more intensity and more rest, if you want to do the longer distances, endurance plays a vital role in this. If you are not going to be racing, why bother trying to get better at TT's, just enjoy your riding.
Sure you do not have to train "easy" as such for long distances as a long ride can be hard over all. However nobody can ride with the same intensity for 4 hours as they can for 1 hour so in that regard there is quite a difference especially if the 4 hours can only be completed at roughly 80-85% FTP for instance while one hour can in at least in theory be done at 100% FTP.
It is just not possible to ride at as high an intensity for the longer ride and very importantly the real benefits to aerobic performance come mainly from shorter durations - in my experience this is highly apparent and it does not usually take that long with the proper use of a power meter to discover this.
In the case of Freehub, the long distances are much too long to allow effective training and also have the added downside of hindering effective training in the future due to fatigue. Of course if he is out to enjoy it then doing what he likes is entirely his decision and I respect that.
Murr X0 -
I admit to not knowing what everyone was talking about when I first entered the training section... so is ths what people mean by junk miles? i.e that they won't do you any good in your training in the long run?Level 3 Road & Time Trial Coach, Level 2 Track Coach.
Blackpool Clarion CC
http://blackpoolclarion.webs.com/
Blackpool Youth Cycling Association
http://www.go-ride-byca.org0 -
pretty much.0
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doyler78 wrote:SBezza wrote:doyler78 wrote:Are v02 max intervals really irrelevant to time trialling? This is me just thinking out loud so help me here if I'm way out. If v02 max represents the extent of your potential and FTP a ceiling below this then would raising v02 max not help to raise the FTP ceiling and thus make gains at the margins more attainable? I'm not suggesting they are a mainstay of such a programme but I would have thought as part of the training mix they could be quite useful.
Yes they are, don't forget you ride a 10 at a higher power level than FTP, you need to get the body used to riding at this intensity. When I do them I normally do 4 x 5 mins, and the power they are done at would be a far bit over my 20 min power, let alone my FTP.
If done correctly you shouldn't be able to do 10 of them, I struggle to complete 4 of the horrible things.
Have I missed something as you are saying that v02 max intervals are irrelevant and then go on to make the case for including them :?
Surely that depends on how hard you do them. 6x6 or 8x5 are well known v02 max interval training sessions so that's a work interval period of 36 and 40 minutes respectively yet 10x4 is 40 minutes of work interval as well so is it really that impossible?
Sorry error n my part, yes they are relevant.!!0 -
As I said I love doing long rides, I did 106 miles last night, I got a lift home, cause we had a curry after. The ride was a mix of very steady, and about 30 miles me on the front with a tailwind/crossswind doing 25-30 on the flat, then I towed em back into york at 22+ into a strong headwind, sort of interval training it was a proper hard workout coming back in at miles 96 to 106. Probably not the correct training, sprinting up hills in it too, but it was something I liked and it's got my legs abit achy, I'll be recovered for the TT tomoz tho although not looking forward to doing it on my crap bike as my times will be slower.
Because I've done a long ride today, I'll be doing a chaingang on Saturday, I doubt I'll be doing anything this long on a tuesday again, it was just towing some people along for their practice run.
I'll try do the plan by how I stated it next week, although as advised I'll try something like 4 intervals.0 -
Muur X
You stated you don't get the physical adaptions required for racing my doing endurance efforts, that is false. For the last 2 months plus all I have done are tempo rides, endurance rides and recovery rides, yet I was still able to get PB's at all distances, well except the 12hr, as I haven't done on yet this year.
Admittedly I am concentrating on the longer distance TT's but you still can go fast on shorter distance TT's. I might not be as fast as I could go at the shorter distances, but it doesn't mean you don't get the adaptions, you do get the adaptions required for racing, just not the best for short distance TT's.
The best training is to incorporate a variety of intensities, so that the body is constantly challenged. Even if you only concentrate on short distance TT's you still need a good endurance base, if you don't want your performances to be all over the place.
Will would probably be better at aiming for longer distance TT's IMO, if he can do 175 mile rides without needing much recovery, he should be able to do a decent 100m TT.0 -
freehub wrote:I'll be recovered for the TT tomoz tho although not looking forward to doing it on my crap bike as my times will be slower.
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Thing is you are unlikely to be very fresh at all, not a problem if you want to do the TT and not worry about the time, but if you want to do a decent time, I would leave at least a couple of days after a hard endurance ride before tackling the TT.
If you did one week without the long ride the day before the TT, and instead some Vo2Max intervals, you would probably feel a difference in freshness, and hence the time.
I will generally have a rest day/easy day the day before a TT, with some short efforts on the turbo, unless of course it was a mid week TT, which would be purely used for training, though I have only done one evening TT this year.0 -
I'm good at sitting at 20mph for miles, and powering along at 25mph on the flats for short bursts, maybe even 10s of miles if I'm feeling good and the wind is not in my face, but I'd not be able to do even 23 for a 100 I reckon. I've never really tried though, I'd only want to do it on a proper bike as well.
I'll see how I do tomorrow, I reckon I should get the same time as 2 weeks ago or better. I think the small amount of training I've done so far has already taught me I can push the pain abit more if I keep it more constant.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/42143294
That's what we did yesterday, I was suffering in the middle due to being uncomfortable and dehydrated, it was tough on the front into this headwind doing 15 mph on the flat really does not make me happy. I tried this lucozade shot thought it'd help, think it might have done more harm than good.0 -
SBezza wrote:Muur X
You stated you don't get the physical adaptions required for racing my doing endurance efforts, that is false. For the last 2 months plus all I have done are tempo rides, endurance rides and recovery rides, yet I was still able to get PB's at all distances, well except the 12hr, as I haven't done on yet this year.
Admittedly I am concentrating on the longer distance TT's but you still can go fast on shorter distance TT's. I might not be as fast as I could go at the shorter distances, but it doesn't mean you don't get the adaptions, you do get the adaptions required for racing, just not the best for short distance TT's.
Just thinking out loud here - but if you are racing a lot of TT's - and getting better at them all the time - isn't riding the TT itself like a training session for the next one?
When I was doing a similar plan to yours (lots of endurance, etc) and just racing my TTs once a week - my times would improve. However, once I started doing more interval-based training, my times improved FASTER.0 -
freehub wrote:I'll be recovered for the TT tomoz tho although not looking forward to doing it on my crap bike as my times will be slower.
You're young and your body can recover quickly. However - you won't be FULLY recovered and you won't be as fresh as if you had done less work yesterday. No matter how you 'feel'. Your time in the TT will suffer from the hard effort, although maybe not as much as someone older, etc.
Even the Pros don't 'fully' recover overnight from big efforts.0 -
Pokerface wrote:SBezza wrote:Muur X
You stated you don't get the physical adaptions required for racing my doing endurance efforts, that is false. For the last 2 months plus all I have done are tempo rides, endurance rides and recovery rides, yet I was still able to get PB's at all distances, well except the 12hr, as I haven't done on yet this year.
Admittedly I am concentrating on the longer distance TT's but you still can go fast on shorter distance TT's. I might not be as fast as I could go at the shorter distances, but it doesn't mean you don't get the adaptions, you do get the adaptions required for racing, just not the best for short distance TT's.
Just thinking out loud here - but if you are racing a lot of TT's - and getting better at them all the time - isn't riding the TT itself like a training session for the next one?
When I was doing a similar plan to yours (lots of endurance, etc) and just racing my TTs once a week - my times would improve. However, once I started doing more interval-based training, my times improved FASTER.
I only race once a week, and mainly long distance TT's at the moment. There will be some benefit to the racing, but not alot compared with the training during the week.
If I was doing several TT's a week, and short distance ones at that, then yes, you would get the interval training effect from these.
I am not saying endurance is the key to short distance TT-ing, but countering the suggestions that endurance riding does not create the adaptions required for racing, as that is not true. Racing takes many forms, and different distances require different training techniques.
The endurance side of my training told this last weekend, when guys that will beat me over short distance TT's, struggled to get within a minute of me in a 50m TT, they knew it was down to the training they had been doing, and the fact they haven't got the endurance element. They had been doing a maximum of 2 hour rides, with intervals on the turbo.
I have said I could probably go faster for the short distance TT's if I done more intervals, but they are not my prime target. Anyhow I am doing a short block of intervals, ready for end of season events.0 -
Pokerface wrote:freehub wrote:I'll be recovered for the TT tomoz tho although not looking forward to doing it on my crap bike as my times will be slower.
You're young and your body can recover quickly. However - you won't be FULLY recovered and you won't be as fresh as if you had done less work yesterday. No matter how you 'feel'. Your time in the TT will suffer from the hard effort, although maybe not as much as someone older, etc.
Even the Pros don't 'fully' recover overnight from big efforts.
I'm wondering if I feel that I am actually doing crap in the TT tomoz if I should just turn my HR monitor round so I can see it, stick my HR at 183-185 and treat it as a threshold session? Then at least I've got decent training rather than stopping pedalling and killing myself like I usually do?
But like when I do a TT, it's a 60 mile day, I do 25 miles to the start, then the 10 mile TT, and 25 miles back, I take it out steady, do the TT, then I push hard back.0
