israel

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  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    agg25 wrote:
    Here's another bombshell - Jesus never existed.
    No records from historians that lived in his area in his time have ever been found, he was "invented" by Constantine in the 3rd century at a secret meeting designed to take power from the pagans.
    So unfortunately we can't blame him.

    Oh dear. Bad move. This thread has nothing to do with whether Jesus existed or not.


    Anyway, regarding the issues at hand, I stand strongly by the opinion that the fear of being labelled anti-semitic has a huge bearing on the actions of the international community, with regards to Israel/Jewish people since, the holocaust.

    Of course i'm not so narrow as to say it's the over-riding factor, and i'm not sure how it will affect the developments of yesterdays incident, but it definitely figures.

    If i may draw comparisons with cycling, the use of the anti semite label by some Israeli's/Jews/Israeli/Jewish Organisations is rather like Lance Armstrong's treatment of suspicious observers with regards to doping. Unfotunately, such methods do more to arouse suspicion than to dis-prove suspicious observations.
    Canyon Endurace CF 2014 | Canyon Ultimate CF 2010
  • snailracer
    snailracer Posts: 968
    redddraggon wrote:
    agg25 wrote:
    Israel should never have been created in the first place. That was the first big mistake. I didn't see the allies giving up any of their land as part of the post war deal. "Here have someone else's land, they won't mind" ?!?! What did they think would happen!?

    It was Jewish land long ago, until they were forcibly evicted. Israel was returned to it's original owners. So blame the Romans.
    According to the Old Testament, the land was originally inhabited by Canaanites before they were displaced by the Jews.
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    agg25 wrote:
    Not taking sides, not stating that one side's claims are more legitmate than another merely stating the historic concept. Israel was not created in a vacum.

    Totally agree.

    Also Israel isnt as such jewish state, its a secular state, its inhabitants are called Israelis ( including arab, jew and christian). So to establish a state in Russia would be problematic not least because Jews in Russia suffered pogromattic persecution post WW2.

    The problem with the region is that both Arab and Israeli peoples have a looooong history in the area, (the jewish claim being based on the allocating of land by Joshua to the tribes of Israel centuries and centuries ago) the trouble being that it's the same history.

    They share the same land, the same resources, the same hopes/aspirations but both are so bound in fear that they refuse to trust the other.

    I dont believe the Holocaust and its reverberations have much to do now with Israeli foreign policy as such. I think the main concerns for both sides are the recent tragedies ( the phalangist massacres and the anti Israeli voices from Iran).

    The real tragedy, of course, is that it's ordinary people dragged into the conflict who suffer most, the big boys who cause it all can sit smugly in a Sky news centre and offer opinionated rheotoric not realising thats its the rhetoric that causes the problem.

    And often times when an argument cant be won by rhetoric and reason its won by force.

    As a chilling side note, there was a documentary about 2 years ago where a cabal of neo-cons in the bush administartion actually stated on camera that their desire was to provoke conflic in the middle east, thereby bringing about the bibilcal armageddon and the second coming of christ. How on earth do you reason with that mindset?

    More bikes less war is what i say.
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.
  • chunky1
    chunky1 Posts: 2
    Doctor Wijn offered up his hospital anecdotes and wisdom to the online world and then appears miffed that i question them
    the link which i included was lets just say an isreali facebook page! he changed his privacy settings at the speed of light so it now no longer works.
    he shared his religion his hopes and fears, anecdotes about his jewish sister and his fears about not being able to learn the language.
    I don't Internet stalk people but i "shoot" down hypocrites in this case spelt (Hippocrates)! as a hobby..
    wev all seen the endless looped tape of the soldier being dropped. all of 6ft into a lifeboat
    we wont see endless looped film of protesters being mowed down .
    last post end of.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    chunky1 wrote:
    Doctor Wijn offered up his hospital anecdotes and wisdom to the online world and then appears miffed that i question them
    the link which i included was lets just say an isreali facebook page! he changed his privacy settings at the speed of light so it now no longer works.
    he shared his religion his hopes and fears, anecdotes about his jewish sister and his fears about not being able to learn the language.
    I don't Internet stalk people but i "shoot" down hypocrites in this case spelt (Hippocrates)! as a hobby..
    wev all seen the endless looped tape of the soldier being dropped. all of 6ft into a lifeboat
    we wont see endless looped film of protesters being mowed down .
    last post end of.

    Grammatically inadequate post. Get some practise in, post a few more times and come back and try again.
    Also, we know stalkers on here, so wooohhhhhh. :wink:
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    Mmmm, not sure you're being entirely honest there old chap. It wasnt an Israeli facebook page it was a page from a dating website.

    And I too wouldn't want my details examined online from a link posted by a forum member who can't tell the difference between face book opinions and dating website personal information.

    Wijn's post seems to me to be in keeping with other posts on this forum, he offered opinion but in this case, by some quirk of fate, was actually in the hospital where the injured arrived.

    And in all fairness to the man he did offered symapathies and best wishes to the injured.

    Which is far preferable than having a hobby decribed as "shooting down hypocrites."

    Ah well, takes all sorts I suppose.
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.
  • ilm_zero7
    ilm_zero7 Posts: 2,213
    mr_si wrote:
    agg25 wrote:
    Israel should never have been created in the first place.

    This isn't helpful.
    it is very true though - it was a mistake and the British played a regretful role in it!
    http://veloviewer.com/SigImage.php?a=3370a&r=3&c=5&u=M&g=p&f=abcdefghij&z=a.png
    Wiliers: Cento Uno/Superleggera R and Zero 7. Bianchi Infinito CV and Oltre XR2
  • ilm_zero7
    ilm_zero7 Posts: 2,213
    chunky1 wrote:
    Doctor Wijn offered up his hospital anecdotes and wisdom to the online world and then appears miffed that i question them
    the link which i included was lets just say an isreali facebook page! he changed his privacy settings at the speed of light so it now no longer works.
    he shared his religion his hopes and fears, anecdotes about his jewish sister and his fears about not being able to learn the language.
    I don't Internet stalk people but i "shoot" down hypocrites in this case spelt (Hippocrates)! as a hobby..
    wev all seen the endless looped tape of the soldier being dropped. all of 6ft into a lifeboat
    we wont see endless looped film of protesters being mowed down .
    last post end of.
    well said - and how right to expose him
    http://veloviewer.com/SigImage.php?a=3370a&r=3&c=5&u=M&g=p&f=abcdefghij&z=a.png
    Wiliers: Cento Uno/Superleggera R and Zero 7. Bianchi Infinito CV and Oltre XR2
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Felt so Good wrote:
    mr_si wrote:
    agg25 wrote:
    Israel should never have been created in the first place.

    This isn't helpful.
    it is very true though - it was a mistake and the British played a regretful role in it!

    It's not "very true" though is it? It's your opinion. You are, of course entitled to it, but don't go presenting it as fact. There is no objective measure as to the correct course of action available to the British government in the years 1946-7, you are simply projeting your own take on matters onto the situation.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • bagpusscp
    bagpusscp Posts: 2,907
    edited June 2010
    johnfinch wrote:
    bagpusscp wrote:

    The growing pains of a young state?{it's people} fast forward to present global events.

    This whole thing started when you said that it was soldiers who gained freedom of speech. Which was untrue. Ordinary people gained freedom of speech against the ruling powers. That is the point of my posts.

    Yes indeed.people became soliders,AKA freedom figthers,terrorist........Does not one set of rulers get replaced by another.For better or worst
    bagpuss
  • snailracer
    snailracer Posts: 968
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Felt so Good wrote:
    mr_si wrote:
    agg25 wrote:
    Israel should never have been created in the first place.

    This isn't helpful.
    it is very true though - it was a mistake and the British played a regretful role in it!

    It's not "very true" though is it? It's your opinion. You are, of course entitled to it, but don't go presenting it as fact. There is no objective measure as to the correct course of action available to the British government in the years 1946-7, you are simply projeting your own take on matters onto the situation.
    It is a myth that Israel was created by the British or the UN. The British and the UN both crafted agreements but no agreement was acceptable to both the then-Zionists and the Palestinians. A civil war erupted and the Zionists emerged as the winners, declaring the state of Israel off their own bat.
    This is classic self-determination, the catch is that Israel is then no more legitimate than the Arabs fighting for their vision of a Palestinian state, who are presumably exercising their own self-determination.
    I consider the legal arguments irrelevant, however. Jewish immigration took place against the wishes of the local Arab-Palestinian inhabitants, which culminated in a war and the ejection of more Arabs. This, IMO, was simply an invasion.
  • agg25
    agg25 Posts: 619
    ^^^^ What he said.
    The creation of Israel has caused a horrendous amount of deaths and violence over the years.
    124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
    1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
    8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
    During Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians
    Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none
    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967
    The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.1%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.3% and 41.3% in Gaza
    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

    Them's the facts. Try your best Israeli supporters.
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    so.....do pro-Israelis ride compact or standard..??
  • saymush
    saymush Posts: 80
    agg25 wrote:
    ^^^^ What he said.
    The creation of Israel has caused a horrendous amount of deaths and violence over the years.
    124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
    1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
    8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
    During Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians
    Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none
    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967
    The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.1%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.3% and 41.3% in Gaza
    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

    Them's the facts. Try your best Israeli supporters.

    So what?

    Im pleased the Palestinians have such an eloquent supporter but in answer to your list .So what.

    BTW the Arab world without the focul point of Israel might well treat the Palestinians very badly indeed. What would you do then? Give them Berkshire?
  • saymush
    saymush Posts: 80
    softlad wrote:
    so.....do pro-Israelis ride compact or standard..??

    And do they shave their legs?
  • Biscuiteer
    Biscuiteer Posts: 143
    An informative Spectator article on the situation can be read here
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    agg25 wrote:
    ^^^^ What he said.
    The creation of Israel has caused a horrendous amount of deaths and violence over the years.
    124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
    1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
    8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
    During Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians
    Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none
    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967
    The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.1%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.3% and 41.3% in Gaza
    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

    Them's the facts. Try your best Israeli supporters.

    On these figures alone, Israel is winning big time, but I reckon if the Palestinians got a Eurovision entry and won they may even up the scores somewhat. :P
  • craker
    craker Posts: 1,739
    dmclite wrote:
    On these figures alone, Israel is winning big time, but I reckon if the Palestinians got a Eurovision entry and won they may even up the scores somewhat. :P

    Crikey your jokes are a bit close to the bone. That and a couple of other rantings make you sound somewhat partisan. That's not meant to be a compliment.
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    Quote: "SAYERET MATKAL, Members of the elite division of the Israeli Defence Forces undergo 20 months of training in total. The toughest stage is the Gibbush ( "crystallisation")
    - between three and five days of physical and psychological testing."

    I wonder if this includes getting thrown overboard by peaceful providers of aid???
  • snailracer
    snailracer Posts: 968
    edited June 2010
    dmclite wrote:
    snailracer wrote:
    dmclite wrote:
    Limburger wrote:
    Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

    Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.
    There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

    Never said it did, just showing my views the same as you are. The fact that our views are opposed is all that is different. But........because I was in the military (as you succinctly point out) and served in 3 warzones, gives me a headstart over you. :P

    Ok, you can get back on subject and express your anti-semitic diatribe once more. :roll:
    Does it, really? Perhaps it just brainwashed/desensitized you to being an instrument of state brutality.

    Fcuk me, mate are you reading from a film script, PMSL. :roll:
    I'm not nearly as filmic as Israeli commandos roping onto a ship from a helicopter.

    UPDATE: I just got a call from Bruce Willis, he wants IN.
    UPDATE: OK we got Hugo Weaving onboard, as Desensitized Instrument of State Brutality :P
  • GeorgeShaw
    GeorgeShaw Posts: 764
    Biscuiteer wrote:
    An informative Spectator article on the situation can be read here

    If you think that Mad Mel Phillips is informative, then you need to check your own sanity.
  • Westerberg
    Westerberg Posts: 652
    GeorgeShaw wrote:
    Biscuiteer wrote:
    An informative Spectator article on the situation can be read here

    If you think that Mad Mel Phillips is informative, then you need to check your own sanity.
    +1

    "informative"?!? try 'rabid', 'bilious', 'poisonous'......
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Yes, but not as mad as this lot - the angriest people in the world. :lol::lol:

    http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/
  • saymush
    saymush Posts: 80
    As usual the most rabid accusations and name calling are from those with a liberal left leaning persuaion.

    Watch out DMC or youll be harangued as goodness only knows what till you get banned for crimes against humanity.

    Its a similar tactic used by the "peacfull aid shippers"

    + 500000000000 to the israelis
  • saymush
    saymush Posts: 80
    johnfinch wrote:
    Yes, but not as mad as this lot - the angriest people in the world. :lol::lol:

    http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

    i like this!
  • saymush
    saymush Posts: 80
    johnfinch wrote:
    Yes, but not as mad as this lot - the angriest people in the world. :lol::lol:

    http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

    i like this!
  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    Saymush, you're missing the bit where DMClite starts name calling:

    dmclite wrote:

    Ok, you can get back on subject and express your anti-semitic diatribe once more. :roll:

    Pretty predictable.
    Canyon Endurace CF 2014 | Canyon Ultimate CF 2010
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    johnfinch wrote:

    http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

    "Anyone catch the 7.34am item on Today in which Mark Mardell takes the opportunity to explore just how awful BRITISH Petroleum is? There may be unwanted oil gushing from the Gulf but there sure is plenty of slime ooozing from Mark."

    Funniest site I've seenin ages. It's like having a peek into Cameron's brain. Ha ha.
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.
  • saymush
    saymush Posts: 80
    EKIMIKE wrote:
    Saymush, you're missing the bit where DMClite starts name calling:

    dmclite wrote:

    Ok, you can get back on subject and express your anti-semitic diatribe once more. :roll:

    Pretty predictable.

    not name calling though is it?

    Anyway Ill let the rage continue i have no interest in wasting my time on this.
  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    How is it not name calling?

    Anyway, don't blame you for losing interest. It always was going to end up this way. The person(s) who favour/defend Israel will always end up calling the other side anti-semitic. It's the hammer blow. How can you come back from such an accusation? You can't without appearing to be anti-semitic. Even Jewish Academics can't (see Norman Finklestein).
    Canyon Endurace CF 2014 | Canyon Ultimate CF 2010
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