israel

markos1963

It's funny that we even think to comment on Israel's lack of respect of international law. Since when have they abided by the law, they obtained Palastine by terrorism(sorry freedom fighters), they occupied other counries territory and refused to give it back when told to by the UN, they employ assasination squads to take out opposition on forgeign land against international law, they deliberatly target innocent civilians with phosphorus weapons and deny citizenship to peoples who have lived in Palastine since before 1948.
Why should we worry about the deaths of people who were trying to deliver aid to imprisoned people and defended themselves with non ballistic weapons against fully equiped commandos? Its not as if the people that really matter in this(the US) will ever do anything other than abstaining any UN resolution.

rprodgers

Having just witnessed the footage on BBC News in my mind this is not a case of unarmed individuals defending themselves against fully armed commandos.

PR disaster for Israel - what we clearly saw were "people"" on board the ship waiting to club the commandos as they boarded the ship.

In my eyes to have killed only 10 and injured others showed a remarkable amount of restraint by the soldiers and their commanders - who witnessed what was going on.

To attack armed soldiers in this way carries a risk.

If my son/ daughter was serving in the RN searching ships in International waters and they were attacked in this way - I would have hoped that he/ she had given the order to open fire sooner


To talk of a war crime / massacre is patently nonsense and shows how people can be blinded by their bias.

The truth is a lot more complicated than a lot of people realise including the Palestinians who work within the Israeli Security Services.

No Israel is not perfect and often acts like a wounded animal by lashing out when it is provoked

markos1963

With Israel's reputation to shoot first and let off the soldiers later I think I would have armed myself in advance of a commando raid on my ship.

rprodgers

markos1963 wrote:

With Israel's reputation to shoot first and let off the soldiers later I think I would have armed myself in advance of a commando raid on my ship.

...and if you had of attacked the commandos I would not think it unresonable for them to have defended themselves by shooting you.

If they were ordered to only open fire if they or their colleagues were in fear of their lives, in the footage shown they delayed retaliating for as long as they could.

markos1963

But why a raid like that? Surely a naval ship could have come alongside and gone through the normal customs procedure? Always the same with the Israeli's lets show everyone how 'strong' we are(more like what bullies)

chunky1

wijnhard wrote:

I am an English doctor working in Israel.
The most severely injured patients (Turkish/Israeli - whatever) were transferred to us.
I was the first surgeon to see two of the patients.
I saw a lot of injuries and mess this morning.
There is no way the injuries to the Israeli soldiers were caused by peaceful protesters.
Of course the injuries to the non-Israelis were also horrible.
However, I am pretty sure the young soldier who nearly died on the operating table will at least make it through the night.
By the appearance of the injuries, they were hit from the side or from behind with bar like objects.
He must have been pretty scared boarding that ship to ask them to turn around.
He could have saved himself if he just forgot about talking and had opened fire instead.
I need to ride for an hour before I go back, the streets are open at the moment.
I miss the English roads.

you quote your English roots but not that your Jewish and a settler.
It doesn't make you a bad person just not impartial why the deceit i question your whole post now.[/url]http://www.lavaplace.com/Wijnhard/

ilm_zero7

chunky1 wrote:

wijnhard wrote:

I am an English doctor working in Israel.
The most severely injured patients (Turkish/Israeli - whatever) were transferred to us.
I was the first surgeon to see two of the patients.
I saw a lot of injuries and mess this morning.
There is no way the injuries to the Israeli soldiers were caused by peaceful protesters.
Of course the injuries to the non-Israelis were also horrible.
However, I am pretty sure the young soldier who nearly died on the operating table will at least make it through the night.
By the appearance of the injuries, they were hit from the side or from behind with bar like objects.
He must have been pretty scared boarding that ship to ask them to turn around.
He could have saved himself if he just forgot about talking and had opened fire instead.
I need to ride for an hour before I go back, the streets are open at the moment.
I miss the English roads.

you quote your English roots but not that your Jewish and a settler.
It doesn't make you a bad person just not impartial why the deceit i question your whole post now.[/url]http://www.lavaplace.com/Wijnhard/

and by comparison I am english, not arab, not married to an Arab, non-muslim, and my folks are UK for as many generations as I can trace. I just happen to live in the Middle east and have travelled to Palestine, and have access to both Arab and UK Media so have an open mind and a broader perspective than most in the UK.

Israel occupies by force, and can not stand it's right to suppress and persecute the Palestinians to be challenged - disgraceful, and a war crime in any other scenario

as the Turkish PM said: "a dark stain on the history of Humanity"

wijnhard

I am not a settler.
I have no Jewish beliefs.
I work over a 100 hours a week as a doctor in an Israeli hospital.
Is there a place for personal attacks on the forum?
Wow, what a place.
I have enjoyed reading the cycling related items on the forum for a few years and thank you for this. I have one more post and will not be contributing again.

wijnhard

Here's a video of the first wave of IDF landing on the ship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Anonymous

nolf wrote:

Regardless of who was right, Israel has handled this in the classic Israeli way of retreating inside it's shell and calling everyone who disagrees anti-semitic and racist. Drawing on being an under seige nation, with every right to do this (and don't you dare stop us!)!

It's quite possible this was expected by Palestinians, and they may have been trying to provoke Israel, but that's not an excuse. If the palestinians are smart enough to carry video cameras around with them, then you can't blame them if they use them.

It's very hard to force several men with guns to shoot you, when you're unarmed.
If someone threatens you and attempts to hit you with a bit of metal, when you and 50 of your special forces mates are within arms reach, that is not justifiable grounds for lethal action.

The doctor who said the young Israeli soldier with terrible wounds, I hope he gets better soon, but the suggestion that if only he had shot first and asked questions later....!? What the hell. He's an elite soldier in a special forces unit, MTFU.

Israel have managed to wee-wee everyone off (How many people really think this specific instance was justified?), and distance their only Muslim ally, Turkey. Good job guys!

When will Israel learn that diplomacy is about perception?

Wrong, its very easy to attack a violent crowd with automatic weapons.
500 aid workers ? Was there any room for aid supplies ?
This is simple, do not mess with israeli military, if these people want to put themselves in a position where they confront Israeli military then they are either very stupid, demented or armed to the teeth.

Anonymous

wijnhard wrote:

Here's a video of the first wave of IDF landing on the ship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

If it were me roping down, I'd have topped anyone with a weapon in their hand. Funny how they all had bars and rods "to hand". Ive met and worked with a lot of aid workers and I have never seen violence like that. I don't think Aid worker and mob violence are 2 concepts that I would put together.
Don't mess with Israel. They were not the aggressors in this case, just boarding ships like many navys do all over the world.

Also, remember when the General Belgrano was sunk in international waters in 1982 ? The Uk are in a glass house most of the time when it comes to international affairs, especially with a large military presence in Afghanistan.

bagpusscp

A certain middle east country had nothing to do with 9/11.........................

How many times did the goal posts get moved on that one.

Cressers

Remarkable isn't it that the NATO powers can intervene in the world where ever they deem fit yet there is no coalition navy escort of the Gazan aid shipments or a salutory dose of Shock and Awe on the IDF.

Limburger

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.

There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

bagpusscp

I do not think any poster here tries to be an arbiter.I reckon most are fed up with mans inhumanity to his fellow man.Remeber the biggger your toy box the more you can get away with.
Intergalactic headline.
Apes on the 3rd rock from the star,countinue mass killing of it's own species.
now some other news........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2sI8vIJQY8

finchy

Without getting into historical rights and wrongs, it seems to me that Israel and Palestine only get away with continuous violence because other, sponsoring nations allow them to.

I still don't get why the USA can't work out a deal with other Muslim states to rein in the Israeli military/Hamas. Given the way that the situation gives fuel to Islamic fundamentalism, which is a threat not only to the Western world, but also to the (often corrupt and unpopular) regimes in place in Muslim countries, it could be said that absolutely nobody, with the exception of the military establishments in both nations, benefits.

If the Muslim states were simply using the Palestinian issue as a way of deflecting attention away from their own internal problems, that would make sense, but as I have already said, I personally believe that this situation creates more problems than it solves for them.

And without wanting to get into the realms of Jews secretly controlling the USA, what exactly do the Americans get out of this? The biggest oil producing region in the world full of people who are resentful of the USA (and I have met many moderate, peaceful Muslims who hate the USA) is not a helpful situation.

I studied Politics and International Relation at university, and have read quite a few books on the conflict, including books which were co-edited by Palestinians and Israelis to give a more balanced view, and while I can get my head around most conflicts in the world, the lack of any concrete action from involved 3rd parties is something I really, really can't understand.

bearfraser

Bring back "Palastine" that wiil sort out the Piratic/war criminal TW@Ts :evil:

Cressers

What the USA gets out of Israel is a ready market and test range for it's war industries, and when Israel can't afford to buy US weapons the US attempts to buy them for Israel anyway...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-to ... m/621864/2

So safe under the US anti-missile shield Israel can go about it's piratical business with impunity...

And then they wonder why the world hates both Israel and the US.

saymush

Limburger wrote:

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.

There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

Firstly the blockade is not "illeagal"

Secondly there are plenty of construction workers in country with nothing to do there is no need to import any.

thirdly these were not construction workers but part of a carefully orhcatrated attempt to manipulate events and show the world.

Frankly, its a wonder even more werent killed and testament to the restraint and preffesionalism of the israelis.

+ 100 to the Israelis. these guys are aggressive in the defence of their people and quite right too. Hamas has a stated aim to wipe israel and the israelis off the face of the planet. I assume that since you object to the practical defence of this country in the face of such extreme stated aims that you are pro ethnic cleansing?

Limburger

saymush wrote:

Limburger wrote:

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.

There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

Firstly the blockade is not "illeagal"

Secondly there are plenty of construction workers in country with nothing to do there is no need to import any.

thirdly these were not construction workers but part of a carefully orhcatrated attempt to manipulate events and show the world.

Frankly, its a wonder even more werent killed and testament to the restraint and preffesionalism of the israelis.

+ 100 to the Israelis. these guys are aggressive in the defence of their people and quite right too. Hamas has a stated aim to wipe israel and the israelis off the face of the planet. I assume that since you object to the practical defence of this country in the face of such extreme stated aims that you are pro ethnic cleansing?

Very clever.

An occupying power is obliged to follow the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which seeks to protect the civilian population. The Security Council held in 1979 that the Fourth Convention applies in the territories captured by Israel in 1967, including Gaza. Israel, however, has never accepted that the convention should formally apply in the occupied territories, arguing that the conventions refer to occupied state sovereign territories. However it has said that it will be bound by their "humanitarian provisions". Since 2005 Israel asserts that it ended its occupation of Gaza when it disengaged from the coastal strip in 2005.

For you it must be fine to bomb people, use illegal phosphorous grenades on them, destroy their homes then cut of the water supply, the electricity supply, food, medical care, building materials and all the other essential items you cannot get in Gaza because of the blockade. I'm sure you find it reasonable to shoot children and journalists with sniper rifles from 500 yards too.

You might need to import workers if you want something done quickly instead of having to round up malnourished locals to work for free.

I am sure a humanitarian organisation which is legal in the whole world except Israel orchestrated their ship being stormed at night, in international waters by a country that wont sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, won't even admit to having nuclear weapons despite stealing the technology from the French, who use forged British passports to carry out illegal assassinations on foreign soil, who have no regard for the Geneva convention, which attached Lebanon killing many many civilians without being attacked by Lebanon itself - the equivalent of sending the RAF against Belfast because of the IRA.

Oh, and aggressive defence in an oxymoron...you moron. Defending themselves from what, a cruise ship full of cement.

Don't even attempt to suggest I am pro ethnic cleansing or any other vile suggestion. Come back when your argument holds at least some water. [/quote]

Anonymous

Limburger wrote:

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.
There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

Never said it did, just showing my views the same as you are. The fact that our views are opposed is all that is different. But........because I was in the military (as you succinctly point out) and served in 3 warzones, gives me a headstart over you. :P

Ok, you can get back on subject and express your anti-semitic diatribe once more. :roll:

snailracer

dmclite wrote:

Limburger wrote:

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.
There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

Never said it did, just showing my views the same as you are. The fact that our views are opposed is all that is different. But........because I was in the military (as you succinctly point out) and served in 3 warzones, gives me a headstart over you. :P

Ok, you can get back on subject and express your anti-semitic diatribe once more. :roll:

Does it, really? Perhaps it just brainwashed/desensitized you to being an instrument of state brutality.

Anonymous

Limburger wrote:

saymush wrote:

Limburger wrote:

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.

There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

Firstly the blockade is not "illeagal"

Secondly there are plenty of construction workers in country with nothing to do there is no need to import any.

thirdly these were not construction workers but part of a carefully orhcatrated attempt to manipulate events and show the world.

Frankly, its a wonder even more werent killed and testament to the restraint and preffesionalism of the israelis.

+ 100 to the Israelis. these guys are aggressive in the defence of their people and quite right too. Hamas has a stated aim to wipe israel and the israelis off the face of the planet. I assume that since you object to the practical defence of this country in the face of such extreme stated aims that you are pro ethnic cleansing?

Very clever.

An occupying power is obliged to follow the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which seeks to protect the civilian population. The Security Council held in 1979 that the Fourth Convention applies in the territories captured by Israel in 1967, including Gaza. Israel, however, has never accepted that the convention should formally apply in the occupied territories, arguing that the conventions refer to occupied state sovereign territories. However it has said that it will be bound by their "humanitarian provisions". Since 2005 Israel asserts that it ended its occupation of Gaza when it disengaged from the coastal strip in 2005.

For you it must be fine to bomb people, use illegal phosphorous grenades on them, destroy their homes then cut of the water supply, the electricity supply, food, medical care, building materials and all the other essential items you cannot get in Gaza because of the blockade. I'm sure you find it reasonable to shoot children and journalists with sniper rifles from 500 yards too.

You might need to import workers if you want something done quickly instead of having to round up malnourished locals to work for free.

I am sure a humanitarian organisation which is legal in the whole world except Israel orchestrated their ship being stormed at night, in international waters by a country that wont sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, won't even admit to having nuclear weapons despite stealing the technology from the French, who use forged British passports to carry out illegal assassinations on foreign soil, who have no regard for the Geneva convention, which attached Lebanon killing many many civilians without being attacked by Lebanon itself - the equivalent of sending the RAF against Belfast because of the IRA.

Oh, and aggressive defence in an oxymoron...you moron. Defending themselves from what, a cruise ship full of cement.

Don't even attempt to suggest I am pro ethnic cleansing or any other vile suggestion. Come back when your argument holds at least some water.

[/quote]

The "workers" in Gaza aren't so malnourished that they have stopped insurgency attacks on Israel......
Nothing wrong with sniping at journalists.
It would have been nice to attack the Provisional IRA (The IRA is a political party, doh) with the RAF.

Do you honestly believe that Israel is the only power that gets up to dirty tricks ? Are you so naive ? Maybe you are, maybe the fact that the Low countries allowed the nazis to roll on in, occupy and then transport thousands of civilians to the east, you may feel some nationalistic guilt.
BTW stop calling people morons and stuff, lets just argue without personal insult........

Israel has balls, have been fighting on and off since 1948 and have my admiration.

bagpusscp

Least some on here forget .Their freedom of speech was won by instruments of the state.

ExeterSimon

Also, remember when the General Belgrano was sunk in international waters in 1982 ?

Worked though didn't it? The Argentine Navy crawled back to port and didn't come out again. The war was shortened and countless lives saved.

Sort of like a micro Hiroshima.

But back to the Israelis. Not their finest hour.

finchy

bagpusscp wrote:

Least some on here forget .Their freedom of speech was won by instruments of the state.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Freedom of speech was won by people standing up to the state, not serving it.

Although in 1939-45, it was, of course, preserved by soldiers.

bagpusscp

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

saymush

Limburger wrote:

[

An occupying power is obliged to follow the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which seeks to protect the civilian population. The Security Council held in 1979 that the Fourth Convention applies in the territories captured by Israel in 1967, including Gaza. Israel, however, has never accepted that the convention should formally apply in the occupied territories, arguing that the conventions refer to occupied state sovereign territories. However it has said that it will be bound by their "humanitarian provisions". Since 2005 Israel asserts that it ended its occupation of Gaza when it disengaged from the coastal strip in 2005.

For you it must be fine to bomb people, use illegal phosphorous grenades on them, destroy their homes then cut of the water supply, the electricity supply, food, medical care, building materials and all the other essential items you cannot get in Gaza because of the blockade. I'm sure you find it reasonable to shoot children and journalists with sniper rifles from 500 yards too.

You might need to import workers if you want something done quickly instead of having to round up malnourished locals to work for free.

I am sure a humanitarian organisation which is legal in the whole world except Israel orchestrated their ship being stormed at night, in international waters by a country that wont sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, won't even admit to having nuclear weapons despite stealing the technology from the French, who use forged British passports to carry out illegal assassinations on foreign soil, who have no regard for the Geneva convention, which attached Lebanon killing many many civilians without being attacked by Lebanon itself - the equivalent of sending the RAF against Belfast because of the IRA.

Oh, and aggressive defence in an oxymoron...you moron. Defending themselves from what, a cruise ship full of cement.

Don't even attempt to suggest I am pro ethnic cleansing or any other vile suggestion. Come back when your argument holds at least some water.

[/quote]

Please dont resort to name calling, this has been a sensible discussion so far.

There is no malnutrition, there is no shortage of food. There is however a shortage of builidng material. but no shortage of builders.

This shipment was used as a means of provoking and it worked.

Anonymous

snailracer wrote:

dmclite wrote:

Limburger wrote:

Lets see, the IDF forcefully boarded a civilian chartered ship in international waters which would make it...... an act of piracy. There was no justification to board any ship and the Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal on many levels. A few zionist goons took a shoeing, boo hoo. The aid workers had every right in law to kill them.

Oh dmclite seeing as there were alot of construction workers on the ship going to rebuild what Israeli tanks/bulldozers destroy I would imagine they had a fair few tools at hand. Also, just because you were in the military once does not make you an arbiter on conflict or war by any stretch of the imagination.
There are a few of my relatives who did not have a fascist/terrorist Israeli state in mind when they where getting shot at by Nazi soldiers 70 years ago.

Never said it did, just showing my views the same as you are. The fact that our views are opposed is all that is different. But........because I was in the military (as you succinctly point out) and served in 3 warzones, gives me a headstart over you. :P

Ok, you can get back on subject and express your anti-semitic diatribe once more. :roll:

Does it, really? Perhaps it just brainwashed/desensitized you to being an instrument of state brutality.

Fcuk me, mate are you reading from a film script, PMSL. :roll:

finchy

dmclite wrote:

The "workers" in Gaza aren't so malnourished that they have stopped insurgency attacks on Israel......
Nothing wrong with sniping at journalists.

Your first statement stinks of the whole idea of collective responsibility. Does that apply the other way round as well? Are the Brits collectively responsible for Iraq/Afghanistan, thus justifying suicide bombers on London bombers? Are the entire Catholic population of N. Ireland responsible for the IRA, and Protestant for UVF, etc.?

Or is it only OK if the people at the end are Muslims?

And yes, there is something wrong with sniping at journalists. It's called murder.