israel

Anonymous

ExeterSimon wrote:

Also, remember when the General Belgrano was sunk in international waters in 1982 ?

Worked though didn't it? The Argentine Navy crawled back to port and didn't come out again. The war was shortened and countless lives saved.

Sort of like a micro Hiroshima.

But back to the Israelis. Not their finest hour.

Sorry, I put that in about the Belgrano, to be ironic, I wasn't very clear.. Damn right we should have sunk that ship, no regrets there.

finchy

bagpusscp wrote:

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

:? :? :?

States have been elected for a very short period of time - yet another concession that ordinary people had to win by fighting.

Try reading a history of this country to see just how much people had to fight to win their rights. They weren't just given, they cost the blood of tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands.

finchy

bagpusscp wrote:

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

:? :? :?

States have been elected for a very short period of time - yet another concession that ordinary people had to win by fighting.

Try reading a history of this country to see just how much people had to fight to win their rights. They weren't just given, they cost the blood of tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands.

Limburger

dmclite wrote:

The "workers" in Gaza aren't so malnourished that they have stopped insurgency attacks on Israel......
Nothing wrong with sniping at journalists.
It would have been nice to attack the Provisional IRA (The IRA is a political party, doh) with the RAF.

Do you honestly believe that Israel is the only power that gets up to dirty tricks ? Are you so naive ? Maybe you are, maybe the fact that the Low countries allowed the nazis to roll on in, occupy and then transport thousands of civilians to the east, you may feel some nationalistic guilt.
BTW stop calling people morons and stuff, lets just argue without personal insult........

Israel has balls, have been fighting on and off since 1948 and have my admiration.

I am from the UK - England - Shipbuilding country to be precise. So no nationalistic remorse for me.

It is not the workers attacking Israel, most people are trying to get on with their lives but cannot. IN the same way most Germans weren't out killing people in WW2.

Provisional IRA, Real IRA, Furry Bunny IRA who cares the IRA was not always a political part was it. Though you would like to have been able to bomb them you couldn't for the same reasons you Israel should not be bombing/starving/impoverishing Palestinians.

Israel has no balls so it resorts to bully boy tactics like some petulant child. Shooting people isn't even remotely clever neither is it particularly effective unless you intend to shoot everyone who doesn't like you.

The state of Israel should never had been created by the UN in 1948 based upon some poxy made up scrolls from the middle ages. It just happened to be a convenient solution to the problem of what to do with all the displaced Jewish people from Europe. Turned out to be a total balls up though.

snailracer

bagpusscp wrote:

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

In a democracy, yes.
Although in 1939-45, it was to preserve freedom against the Nazis, who were themselves elected into office by the free choice of the German people.
My conclusion from that, would be that morality trumps freedom of speech.

Anonymous

johnfinch wrote:

dmclite wrote:

The "workers" in Gaza aren't so malnourished that they have stopped insurgency attacks on Israel......
Nothing wrong with sniping at journalists.

Your first statement stinks of the whole idea of collective responsibility. Does that apply the other way round as well? Are the Brits collectively responsible for Iraq/Afghanistan, thus justifying suicide bombers on London bombers? Are the entire Catholic population of N. Ireland responsible for the IRA, and Protestant for UVF, etc.?

Or is it only OK if the people at the end are Muslims?

And yes, there is something wrong with sniping at journalists. It's called murder.

Thats a low punch, don't appreciate that at all, but I will answer it.
No, whether they are muslim or any other creed, race or colour different from myself does not have any bearing on my personal interpretation in this thread, or indeed the majority of other subjects covered.
Can't actually believe you asked that of me............ some new person on cake stop, maybe but not you John, FFS.

Limburger

saymush wrote:

There is no malnutrition, there is no shortage of food. There is however a shortage of builidng material. but no shortage of builders.

The facts would seem to contradict what you say.

Here

Here

Here

[url=http://www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/pressrels/2002/pal1915.html[/url]

There are plenty of other fairly reputable sources to go along with these that I have found after 2 minutes looking. I would assert that the UN, British medical journal, BBC and The Independent trump any false claims you make whatever you agenda is.

finchy

dmclite wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

dmclite wrote:

The "workers" in Gaza aren't so malnourished that they have stopped insurgency attacks on Israel......
Nothing wrong with sniping at journalists.

Your first statement stinks of the whole idea of collective responsibility. Does that apply the other way round as well? Are the Brits collectively responsible for Iraq/Afghanistan, thus justifying suicide bombers on London bombers? Are the entire Catholic population of N. Ireland responsible for the IRA, and Protestant for UVF, etc.?

Or is it only OK if the people at the end are Muslims?

And yes, there is something wrong with sniping at journalists. It's called murder.

Thats a low punch, don't appreciate that at all, but I will answer it.
No, whether they are muslim or any other creed, race or colour different from myself does not have any bearing on my personal interpretation in this thread, or indeed the majority of other subjects covered.
Can't actually believe you asked that of me............ some new person on cake stop, maybe but not you John, FFS.

Sorry, it came across badly, wasn't meant to be an accusation of racism. :oops:

It was more of a rhetorical question - of course I knew that the answer would be "no". I just wrote and posted a bit too quickly.

socrates

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Israel are doing these things to try and stop the shooting of missiles into their country by Hamas and Hezbollah. I listen to the outcries against Israel but none of these people come up with an alternative nor a denunciatioon of the terrorists attacking them.

Limburger

socrates wrote:

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Israel are doing these things to try and stop the shooting of missiles into their country by Hamas and Hezbollah. I listen to the outcries against Israel but none of these people come up with an alternative nor a denunciatioon of the terrorists attacking them.

I would invite Israel to pull out of the occupied territories from the 1967 land grab. Hand back the settlements. Allow Gaza and the West Bank free trade so that they can feed themselves. Oh, and tear down that ridiculous wall.

bagpusscp

johnfinch wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

:? :? :?

States have been elected for a very short period of time - yet another concession that ordinary people had to win by fighting.

Try reading a history of this country to see just how much people had to fight to win their rights. They weren't just given, they cost the blood of tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands.

Are you referring to Cromwell?

Cleat Eastwood

Maybe if Israel would have got more points in eurovision song contest....

saymush

Limburger wrote:

saymush wrote:

There is no malnutrition, there is no shortage of food. There is however a shortage of builidng material. but no shortage of builders.

The facts would seem to contradict what you say.

Here

Here

Here

[url=http://www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/pressrels/2002/pal1915.html[/url]

There are plenty of other fairly reputable sources to go along with these that I have found after 2 minutes looking. I would assert that the UN, British medical journal, BBC and The Independent trump any false claims you make whatever you agenda is.

The Facts it would seem do not support your assertion, here from a n article 2 weeks ago not 2008

so efficient that shops all over Gaza are bursting with goods.

Branded products such as Coca-Cola, Nescafé, Snickers and Heinz ketchup – long absent as a result of the Israeli blockade – are both cheap and widely available. However, the tunnel operators have also flooded Gaza with Korean refrigerators, German food mixers and Chinese air conditioning units. Tunnel operators and traders alike complain of a saturated market – and falling prices.

“Everything I demand, I can get,” says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet.

However, Mr al-Kahlout regards his suppliers in Rafah with distaste. “The tunnel business is not real business. They [the tunnel operators] are not respect­able: if they were able to cut off your skin and sell it, they would do so,” he says.

His criticism is echoed by other business leaders in Gaza, who insist that the smugglers are creating a false sense of economic improvement while damaging the territory’s battered private sector.

They concede that the tunnels are providing essential goods, yet the smugglers are also bringing in precisely the simple consumer items that could be manufactured in Gaza, especially if sanctions were eased.

“We are just replacing legitimate businessmen with illegitimate businessmen” says Amr Hammad, a Gaza-based entrepreneur and deputy head of the Palestinian Federation of Industries. Flush with cash, the tunnel operators will soon “govern the whole economy of the Gaza Strip”, Mr Hammad predicts.

For most Gazans, the period since the end of Israel’s three-week offensive in January last year has brought little improvement. According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of “abject poor”, who depend on food aid, trebled to 300,000 – or one in five of all Gazans – in 2009.

One western official says the tunnels act like a “humanitarian safety valve”, but cautions that they offer no solution to economic decline. As Mr Hammad says: “An economy cannot just depend on tunnels.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/587d04da-6686 ... ab49a.html

showing that whilst their ecconomy is very different than ours there is product availability. dont believe all youve been told to believe linburger.

none of this of course diminishes the difficult situation people of all sides find themselves in.

craker

dmclite wrote:

Nothing wrong with sniping at journalists.

Can you expand on this?

dmclite wrote:

It would have been nice to attack the Provisional IRA (The IRA is a political party, doh) with the RAF.

yes but thankfully we didn't and now Northern Ireland (and the mainland) are safer and more prosperous because of peace efforts made by both sides.

Limburger

saymush wrote:

For most Gazans, the period since the end of Israel’s three-week offensive in January last year has brought little improvement. According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of “abject poor”, who depend on food aid, trebled to 300,000 – or one in five of all Gazans – in 2009.

One western official says the tunnels act like a “humanitarian safety valve”, but cautions that they offer no solution to economic decline. As Mr Hammad says: “An economy cannot just depend on tunnels.”

From your own quote.

Oh, and one source does not constitute an established fact. I still trust the UN more than a side column in a financial newspaper.

finchy

bagpusscp wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

:? :? :?

States have been elected for a very short period of time - yet another concession that ordinary people had to win by fighting.

Try reading a history of this country to see just how much people had to fight to win their rights. They weren't just given, they cost the blood of tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands.

Are you referring to Cromwell?

No, I'm talking Peasant's Revolt and many, many other instances when ordinary people were slaughtered by the powers that be (or powers that were).

bagpusscp

History? A time line of events.More often than not ,compiled by the victor{s}

bagpusscp

johnfinch wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

Is the state not elected,and what is the state?Is the state not it's people?

:? :? :?

States have been elected for a very short period of time - yet another concession that ordinary people had to win by fighting.

Try reading a history of this country to see just how much people had to fight to win their rights. They weren't just given, they cost the blood of tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands.

Are you referring to Cromwell?

No, I'm talking Peasant's Revolt and many, many other instances when ordinary people were slaughtered by the powers that be (or powers that were).

The growing pains of a young state?{it's people} fast forward to present global events.

MadammeMarie

nolf wrote:

Several Israeli cabinet members cannot visit western Europe as they have arrest warrants issued.

I sincerely hope that someday those prosecutions will come to fruition, and they will be held accountable for the deaths they caused.

Not if they come to the UK in the future - and if William Hague gets his way.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/30/change-universal-jurisdiction-law

agg25

Israel should never have been created in the first place. That was the first big mistake. I didn't see the allies giving up any of their land as part of the post war deal. "Here have someone else's land, they won't mind" ?!?! What did they think would happen!?

As others have said the Israeli's have hidden behind and used to their advantage what happened in WW2 for way too long now. They are the cause of most of the conflict in the middle east and the US has to stop propping them up with military aid and providing unquestioning support. The Israeli puppeteers in the US have to be stopped if the middle east can ever have peace.

As for the welcoming party on the boat, what did they think they would do, set up a tea party for the boarding machine gun toting enemy in international waters and have a jolly old time?? THEY were the ones illegally boarding and anything after that is their own fault.
End of argument.

finchy

bagpusscp wrote:

The growing pains of a young state?{it's people} fast forward to present global events.

This whole thing started when you said that it was soldiers who gained freedom of speech. Which was untrue. Ordinary people gained freedom of speech against the ruling powers. That is the point of my posts.

craker

agg25 wrote:

Israel should never have been created in the first place.

This isn't helpful.

finchy

agg25 wrote:

Israel should never have been created in the first place. That was the first big mistake. I didn't see the allies giving up any of their land as part of the post war deal. "Here have someone else's land, they won't mind" ?!?! What did they think would happen!?

I wouldn't go as far as that, but I agree with you that it was built in the wrong place. If any place in the world was right to kick a load of people out of their homes to make way for a Jewish state then it would surely have to be Germany.

Or what about the USA? They had plenty of empty land, a Jewish state could have been built there, no problem. Or even somewhere in the USSR. The country was devastated in WW2, why not buy some land off them for an independent Jewish state? They wouldn't even notice the loss.

snailracer

socrates wrote:

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Israel are doing these things to try and stop the shooting of missiles into their country by Hamas and Hezbollah. I listen to the outcries against Israel but none of these people come up with an alternative nor a denunciatioon of the terrorists attacking them.

Not really their country, is it? If 3 million Jews (or any other distinct ethnic group) landed on Dorset, that doesn't mean they can have it. Or expect the locals not to do something about it.

disgruntledgoat

johnfinch wrote:

agg25 wrote:

Israel should never have been created in the first place. That was the first big mistake. I didn't see the allies giving up any of their land as part of the post war deal. "Here have someone else's land, they won't mind" ?!?! What did they think would happen!?

I wouldn't go as far as that, but I agree with you that it was built in the wrong place. If any place in the world was right to kick a load of people out of their homes to make way for a Jewish state then it would surely have to be Germany.

Or what about the USA? They had plenty of empty land, a Jewish state could have been built there, no problem. Or even somewhere in the USSR. The country was devastated in WW2, why not buy some land off them for an independent Jewish state? They wouldn't even notice the loss.

Ignoring the historic ties between the Jewish people and that part of the world, the chief motivation was that Zionism had been a political force in Europe since the very early 20th century, with many Jews purchasing, quite legitimately, land for themselves in what is now Israel.

In 1947 upon teh state of Israel's foundation there was an offer from the UN to create a Palestinian state alongside it which was declined, with the Arab leaders convinced they could do better by conquest. They failed in this attempt.

Not taking sides, not stating that one side's claims are more legitmate than another merely stating the historic concept. Israel was not created in a vacum.

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

agg25 wrote:

Israel should never have been created in the first place. That was the first big mistake. I didn't see the allies giving up any of their land as part of the post war deal. "Here have someone else's land, they won't mind" ?!?! What did they think would happen!?

I wouldn't go as far as that, but I agree with you that it was built in the wrong place. If any place in the world was right to kick a load of people out of their homes to make way for a Jewish state then it would surely have to be Germany.

Or what about the USA? They had plenty of empty land, a Jewish state could have been built there, no problem. Or even somewhere in the USSR. The country was devastated in WW2, why not buy some land off them for an independent Jewish state? They wouldn't even notice the loss.

Ignoring the historic ties between the Jewish people and that part of the world, the chief motivation was that Zionism had been a political force in Europe since the very early 20th century, with many Jews purchasing, quite legitimately, land for themselves in what is now Israel.

In 1947 upon teh state of Israel's foundation there was an offer from the UN to create a Palestinian state alongside it which was declined, with the Arab leaders convinced they could do better by conquest. They failed in this attempt.

Not taking sides, not stating that one side's claims are more legitmate than another merely stating the historic concept. Israel was not created in a vacum.

Yes, but there is a big difference between Jews legitimately buying land, and Arabs being kicked out of their homes.

But I don't really like going into historical rights and wrongs, because you can't undo what's been done in the past, and the emphasis should be on how to move forward from the present situation. I also think that the creation of the state of Israel in it's actual location will in the long run prove to be a massive mistake from the Jewish point of view. Just because it's managed to defend itself for the last 62 years doesn't mean that it will for another 50 or 100.

It would be much better if the international community genuinely helped to find a solution in the region, rather than different countries constantly defending the actions of one side and condemning the other. Unfortunately I think that we're a long, long way from that point in time.

redddraggon

agg25 wrote:

Israel should never have been created in the first place. That was the first big mistake. I didn't see the allies giving up any of their land as part of the post war deal. "Here have someone else's land, they won't mind" ?!?! What did they think would happen!?

It was Jewish land long ago, until they were forcibly evicted. Israel was returned to it's original owners. So blame the Romans.

softlad

redddraggon wrote:

So blame the Romans.

or blame Jesus - he was king of the Jews, apparently....

agg25

Here's another bombshell - Jesus never existed.
No records from historians that lived in his area in his time have ever been found, he was "invented" by Constantine in the 3rd century at a secret meeting designed to take power from the pagans.
So unfortunately we can't blame him.

shockedsoshocked

agg25 wrote:

Here's another bombshell - Jesus never existed.
No records from historians that lived in his area in his time have ever been found, he was "invented" by Constantine in the 3rd century at a secret meeting designed to take power from the pagans.
So unfortunately we can't blame him.

What, the Bible isn't real?!?!