israel

finchy

saymush wrote:

Come on John, is it not concievable that the flotilla might have had motives other than the provision of aid? Could it not be that deliberate engagement in this way was an objective?

Look at the collection of non essential staff on the boat many of whom could have been described as human right / ant israel / pro hamas protesters, is it not concievable that there presence would create greater publicity and lend a false legitamcy to the venture. Surely they dont accompany every cago to the west bank?

So you've not actually answered my question. Do you really, really think that deliberate engagement against heavily armed soldiers was the objective of the flotilla?

And how is this cargo wrong? They're delivering aid, departing from one of Israel's few allies in the region.

saymush

Anyway it appears this ship full of Aid / hundreds of passengers and activists has succeded in manipulating the worlds media and working up the falsely informed indgnation it needs to bully governments into critiscizing a proud and historic nation.

finchy

saymush wrote:

would you be happy to let terrorsits ship goods to britain potentially make bombs to klll you or your family or would you expect someone to intercept them?

What goods were being transported to make bombs?

oldwelshman

Red Rock wrote:

that person wot rides a b wrote:

i personally believe that what Israel does is fundamentally right. they own the land and are in charge of the sea that the boat was in. if they were shot at, which in all likeliness they were, then they have every right to board the ship. if they weren't, then they still have the right to intercept the ship, if they so wish.

I think you're wrong on two counts there. Firstly, Isreal doesn't own the land it illegally occupies, and secondly, it was an act of piracy to attack a ship/boat in international waters.

It's about time western nations pulled their support for Isreal and stopped trading with them.

Seems ironic that Isreal is now a Nazi state that's fast falling to the same level of inhumanity of the Nazi Germany of 70 years ago.

What a load of bollox, have you ever been to Israel ?
How can you compare it to a zazi state, absolutely stupid comparrison.
I suppose you already know there are many Israeli Arabs live and work in Israel ?
As for the settlements I think the israelis should get out of them but thats it.

saymush

John, I firmly believe these heavily "crewed" ships were doung more than delivering eqpt / aid. What other realistic explanation is there for the presence of some of the people on there. I believe they wanted to make a scene.

The israelis didnt say the content of the cargo was illegal or wrong, they said they wanted to check it. They even offered through its international partners (including Egypt who are no friends of the terrorist organisation HAMAS) to dock at another port, the cargo would be checked and the contents afforded safe and complete passage supervised by the UN.

The protesters wanted to force a confrontation, the isrtaelis would have had no option to board and, check mate, the world was watching. What a surprise it kicked off. Not

finchy

saymush wrote:

John, I firmly believe these heavily "crewed" ships were doung more than delivering eqpt / aid. What other realistic explanation is there for the presence of some of the people on there. I believe they wanted to make a scene.

The israelis didnt say the content of the cargo was illegal or wrong, they said they wanted to check it. They even offered through its international partners (including Egypt who are no friends of the terrorist organisation HAMAS) to dock at another port, the cargo would be checked and the contents afforded safe and complete passage supervised by the UN.

The protesters wanted to force a confrontation, the isrtaelis would have had no option to board and, check mate, the world was watching. What a surprise it kicked off. Not

So you're saying that the crews of those boats deliberately set off a confrontation that resulted in x number of deaths, in a battle that they knew they could never win?

saymush

johnfinch wrote:

saymush wrote:

would you be happy to let terrorsits ship goods to britain potentially make bombs to klll you or your family or would you expect someone to intercept them?

What goods were being transported to make bombs?

Probably non, but why sholdnt the Israelis check.

Ships and vehicles are stopped at borders all over the world. Theres nothing unusual or sinister in that. Its part of protecting your country

EKIMIKE

saymush wrote:

unless of course the jews deserve everything they get?

No. Don't put words into my mouth.

saymush

Im saying its not beyond the realms of reasonable possibility.

History is litered with people willing to do this or similar. Suicide bomber do the same every day with even more certainty of the same end result, why not here?

ilm_zero7

saymush wrote:

Anyway it appears this ship full of Aid / hundreds of passengers and activists has succeded in manipulating the worlds media and working up the falsely informed indgnation it needs to bully governments into critiscizing a proud and historic nation.

proud and historic!!!!! what have they to be proud of, and as a nation they are still a spoilt brat of the international community - and behaving just like one too

finchy

saymush wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

saymush wrote:

would you be happy to let terrorsits ship goods to britain potentially make bombs to klll you or your family or would you expect someone to intercept them?

What goods were being transported to make bombs?

Probably non, but why sholdnt the Israelis check.

Ships and vehicles are stopped at borders all over the world. Theres nothing unusual or sinister in that. Its part of protecting your country

If they'd stopped the boats at Gaza, checked through to make sure that no arms were being carried, then let the aid through then nobody would have batted an eyelid. It's the boarding a ship in international waters and killing people which has caused the outrage.

ilm_zero7

oldwelshman wrote:

Red Rock wrote:

that person wot rides a b wrote:

i personally believe that what Israel does is fundamentally right. they own the land and are in charge of the sea that the boat was in. if they were shot at, which in all likeliness they were, then they have every right to board the ship. if they weren't, then they still have the right to intercept the ship, if they so wish.

I think you're wrong on two counts there. Firstly, Isreal doesn't own the land it illegally occupies, and secondly, it was an act of piracy to attack a ship/boat in international waters.

It's about time western nations pulled their support for Isreal and stopped trading with them.

Seems ironic that Isreal is now a Nazi state that's fast falling to the same level of inhumanity of the Nazi Germany of 70 years ago.

What a load of bollox, have you ever been to Israel ?

.

there is a world of a difference between 'Israel' and 'Occupied Palestine' !!

EKIMIKE

Really, i take no sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict. As i see it, it's often 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Thing is, the logical/correct solutions are very rarely practised, encouraged or discussed. That's with respect to Israel and Palestine and the International Community.

oldwelshman

Mad Roadie wrote:

dmclite wrote:

Fair play to Israel every time.

Ah Fairplay - a concept israel hasnt recognised since its inception. What is fair play to do with it? to the woman who witnesses the death of her phospohr bombed baby in Beirut when the Israeli forces trapped and cluster bombed the civilian population there - Robert Fisk described two Lebanese infant victims of the phosphorus shells:Dr. Shamaa’s story was a dreadful one and her voice broke as she told it. “I had to take the babies and put them in buckets of water to put out the flames,” she said. “When I took them out half an hour later, they were still burning. Even in the mortuary, they smouldered for hours.” Next morning, Amal Shamaa took the tiny corpses out of the mortuary for burial. To her horror, they again burst into flames.

http://zionismkills.wordpress.com/2008/ ... ddle-east/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 20971.html

Yes and I was in tel Aviv three times during a bombing, one where terrorists blew up many young Russians in a queue going into a disco and guess what, bits of young people everywhere, one where they blew up a busy market on their weekend.
I was also In a bar next door to Mikes Bar, which was blown up by two UK terrorist actually targeting a bar full of tourists !! Again bits of bodies everhwere!!

finchy

EKIMIKE wrote:

Really, i take no sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict. As i see it, it's often 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

+1.

I think that one of the problems is that as soon as you get people into power on a "security agenda", they will endlessly provoke the "enemy", either because they of such a type that they can't see any other way to provide security other than brutality, or because they know that constant enmity with another nation means that they can keep the support of the people by promising to fight the monster that they've created.

And that goes for both sides.

snakehips

johnfinch wrote:

So you're saying that the crews of those boats deliberately set off a confrontation that resulted in x number of deaths, in a battle that they knew they could never win?

People have done that in many disputes. If you can't match somebody militarily you fight a propaganda war. The media were certainly on the vessels. What for ? To help distribute the aid ?

Snake

finchy

snakehips wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

So you're saying that the crews of those boats deliberately set off a confrontation that resulted in x number of deaths, in a battle that they knew they could never win?

People have done that in many disputes. If you can't match somebody militarily you fight a propaganda war. The media were certainly on the vessels. What for ? To help distribute the aid ?

Snake

The media were on board to publicise the mission. This was a big international story before what happened today.

saymush

John, what do you suppose the purpose of attacking the soldiers from behind with iron bars was?

They must have known it would precipitate a response what else was l;ikely to have happened?

Westerberg

snakehips wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

So you're saying that the crews of those boats deliberately set off a confrontation that resulted in x number of deaths, in a battle that they knew they could never win?

People have done that in many disputes. If you can't match somebody militarily you fight a propaganda war. The media were certainly on the vessels. What for ? To help distribute the aid ?

Snake

Of course the media were on the vessels; the free press needs to be on the front line if there's any hope for objective reportage. You've twisted this to suggest it is evidence of a cynical ploy to draw Israel into a conflict and then spin it in Hamas' favour. I think the reaction of world leaders who seem to be united in their strong condemnation of Israel speaks volumes - yet some on the boards would still choose to believe Israel can do no wrong. What would it take to change their minds I wonder? I think some minds have been irretrievably made up on this issue a long time ago and are now blind to any wrong doing whatsoever on Israel's part.

saymush

Westerberg if there werent likely to have been a reaction provoked the press and the activists wouldnt have been there would they?

on the other hand if they had been briefed and informed that there were circumstances where there might be something to report on and they were convinced that was the case theres a good reason to be there.

Westerberg

saymush wrote:

Westerberg if there werent likely to have been a reaction provoked the press and the activists wouldnt have been there would they?

on the other hand if they had been briefed and informed that there were circumstances where there might be something to report on and they were convinced that was the case theres a good reason to be there.

even if this were the case, it adds not a shred of validation to the Israeli act of aggression.

finchy

saymush wrote:

John, what do you suppose the purpose of attacking the soldiers from behind with iron bars was?

They must have known it would precipitate a response what else was l;ikely to have happened?

We've only got the Israelis word that the activists attacked the soldiers first.

ilm_zero7

johnfinch wrote:

saymush wrote:

John, what do you suppose the purpose of attacking the soldiers from behind with iron bars was?

They must have known it would precipitate a response what else was l;ikely to have happened?

We've only got the Israelis word that the activists attacked the soldiers first.

the west is sick - the Americans spend millions in the form of arms to Israel and call it aid, yet wont secure the delivery of food and true humanitarian aid to the Palestinians - perhaps only when the blinkered pro Jewish lobby in the US is humbled will there be middle east peace?

saymush

Westerberg wrote:

saymush wrote:

Westerberg if there werent likely to have been a reaction provoked the press and the activists wouldnt have been there would they?

on the other hand if they had been briefed and informed that there were circumstances where there might be something to report on and they were convinced that was the case theres a good reason to be there.

even if this were the case, it adds not a shred of validation to the Israeli act of aggression.

Maybe it doesnt validate viloence but it should temper our outrage.

Man climbs into lions cage and gets mauled whos fault is that?

nolf

Regardless of who was right, Israel has handled this in the classic Israeli way of retreating inside it's shell and calling everyone who disagrees anti-semitic and racist. Drawing on being an under seige nation, with every right to do this (and don't you dare stop us!)!

It's quite possible this was expected by Palestinians, and they may have been trying to provoke Israel, but that's not an excuse. If the palestinians are smart enough to carry video cameras around with them, then you can't blame them if they use them.

It's very hard to force several men with guns to shoot you, when you're unarmed.
If someone threatens you and attempts to hit you with a bit of metal, when you and 50 of your special forces mates are within arms reach, that is not justifiable grounds for lethal action.

The doctor who said the young Israeli soldier with terrible wounds, I hope he gets better soon, but the suggestion that if only he had shot first and asked questions later....!? What the hell. He's an elite soldier in a special forces unit, MTFU.

Israel have managed to piss everyone off (How many people really think this specific instance was justified?), and distance their only Muslim ally, Turkey. Good job guys!

When will Israel learn that diplomacy is about perception?

milan_ns

While the bigger problem of aid to Gaza is open to debating, this particular situation is quite clear: the activists intentionally provoked the Israeli Navy armed response for publicity purposes.

I mean, what do you expect when bunch of heavily armed commandos drop on your ship and you start banging on their heads with metal pipes.

As far as the bigger picture - I think Israel is doing huge damage by no allowing free movement of UN aid packages into Gaza.

Than again, Israeli have not invented this strategy. I happen to come from Serbia and remember vividly the embargo in early '90s and bombing in '99 - both portrayed by West as "humanitarian" actions, but non the less hurting, sometimes killing vast number of innocent civilians (including children).

My point is these situations are never quite simple as they seem.

Frank the tank

I'll tell ya what action the international community will do about Israel. They'll pay lip service by verbal condemnations, but, as for any action jack sh1t will be done about them.

They are no better than the "terrorists" they are at odds with.

saymush

johnfinch

KillerMetre

Felt so Good wrote:

ScaldedCat wrote:

Isreal are totally out of order yet again, what will anyone do about it?
Bugger all...

totally agree - but only when the USA stop backing Israel will they have to act reasonably - international sanctions against Israel are long over due - they seem to hide behind the holocaust, yet their actions against Gaza and the Palestinians are just as bad

I hope to God our new government dont sit on the fence and shame Israel

I don't quite think Israel has embarked upon a programme of systematic extermination.

But Israel is totally out of order stopping aid getting to Gaza,which is effectively the worlds largest prison.

bagpusscp

It is not in Western interests to have a stable middle East.The last 60 years proves it.One word. OIL.