Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...

afx237vi

Well, this thread has taken an unexpected turn.

blazing_saddles

afx237vi wrote:

Well, this thread has taken an unexpected turn.

Yeah.
Pseudo-intellectual bullsh*t succeeds, where trolls and fanbois fail.
Effectively kiiling off an anti-Lance thread takes some doing..........

paulcuthbert

Bakunin wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

Habitus

That is Pierre Bourdeiu.

He is no post-modern theorist -- but he was a blow hard.

Good try.

I think you've completely missed my point. If you think about it ITO pro/anti-Lance you might be getting there...

ratsbeyfus

Enough philosoposophsizing... look at what I found on the www:

paulcuthbert

My friend took this this morning

Bakunin

Blazing Saddles wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Well, this thread has taken an unexpected turn.

Yeah.
Pseudo-intellectual bullsh*t succeeds, where trolls and fanbois fail.
Effectively kiiling off an anti-Lance thread takes some doing..........

First off -- it is not pseudo-intellectual bullsh*t -- there is nothing pseudo about post-modern theorists. But there is an incredible amount of bs.

Who said it was an anti-Lance thread? Wishful thinking on your part?

pb21

paulcuthbert wrote:

My friend took this this morning

Scary looking and obviously lethal cat!

Bakunin

paulcuthbert wrote:

My friend took this this morning

Paul -- where is that climb in Northern Ireland -- I can't read it.

Spend a lot of time in the North -- writing a book,

blazing_saddles

This thread isn't dead, just sleeping.........waiting to pounce.

iainf72

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bahati- ... _headlines

Bahati seems like a nice fellow

Despite many people within the sport being aware that letters were circulating

I wonder who knew and for how long before the WSJ published details.

bompington

Bakunin wrote:

Paul -- where is that climb in Northern Ireland -- I can't read it.

Must be Slieve Croob, I've never been up it but it looks like there's a transmitter access road? 500m+, good hill

Actually I butted in because I'll be in NI this summer on holiday, any suggestions from Paul or anyone else for hills to climb (with or without PEDs, electric motors, philosophy books in the jersey pocket) or otherwise decent routes would be welcome.

Sheptastic

paulcuthbert wrote:

My friend took this this morning

potent symbolism for the state of world cycling eh Paul?

ratsbeyfus

Here are some cheeters to get this thread back on track:




(Cue insane/inane responses from tiger fans claiming that my eyes are deceiving me.)

No_Ta_Doctor

Well in an attempt to derail this thread entirely (or to provide something to think about while we carry on waiting for some news), I'm actually going to initiate a bit of philosophy of doping here....

The line of enquiry I'd like to pursue stems from Aristotelian virtue ethics, which has been given a bit of an update by Alasdair MacIntyre.

Broadly speaking, Aristotle had a marvellously circular argument that you knew what was good because men of good character did good stuff, and that you could tell a man of good character because he did good stuff. To escape this tautology MacIntyre brings in an external reference, that we define what is good by the good of a practice, which is embedded in tradition, which is embedded in culture. Obviously it has relativistic tones to it, but absolutes are indeed hard to find.

In this instance the practice is professional cycle racing, which has a tradition, and is embedded in the cultures of sport as a whole, cycling in general, and at it's broadest level, Western culture ad norms. Basically what this means is that the virtues we espouse in cycling - e.g. bravery, determination etc are informed by the tradition of cycling, which takes place in a wider cultural context.

One of the things that is interesting here is that it's now possible to look at what the internal goods of cycling are (the pursuit of which makes one a good cyclist, (successful or not) and those that are external to it - money, fame, power etc. Being a virtuous cyclist is about cycling well, being a successful cyclist doesn't go hand in hand with this. There is a tension between doing the right thing in the saddle and doing what it takes to win a race.

I've used this line of thought before to look at differences in perception of cheating within football - where we often hear in England that foreigners are always diving but take kicking an attacker up in the air as part and parcel of the game. There are actually different traditions of football in different countries - it's not just stylistic, it's to do with the very ethos of football. That's because it isn't the rule book that defines football, it's the unwritten rules, the traditions.

If we look at that in cycling then there's a line of thought that might suggest that doping and cheating have always been part of the unwritten rules, the tradition, of cycling. To a certain extent I think that's true. There is aa qualitative difference between a cheeky bit of amphetamine to help you over the pass and systematic blood doping and EPO use. The first had a part in cycling as the equivalent of the dark arts of Italian football defenders - prohibited by the rules, but what you could get away with, part of the game. The second is about using cycling to achieve goals entirely external to cycling, it's about winning without being a good, virtuous, cyclist. It's about a win at all costs mentality that ends up blinding the cyclist to the pursuit of the internal goods of cycling - satisfaction at performance, knowing you've put in a hard day's work etc. When we say the stakes have got higher we're talking about the external stuff - the money, lifestyle etc.

Of course thee tradition of doping in cycling has in a way legitimised wholesale drug use - at least in the minds of the systematic dopers. That doesn't leave us much scope in tolerance of drug use - we need to examine the tradition and shape it for the future.

Hope someone somewhere got something out of all that, and that I didn't bore the saddle sores off the rest of you, thanks for readin if you got this far!

top_bhoy

Thats a lot of words to say not very much.

Can the actions of why a cyclist goes towards the illegal use of medical practices not be summed up more simply and in far fewer words ie Greed and/or Survival?

No_Ta_Doctor

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Thats a lot of words to say not very much.

Can the actions of why a cyclist goes towards the illegal use of medical practices not be summed up more simply and in far fewer words ie Greed and/or Survival?

Well it could be, but that would be to use fewer words to say even less, imo. There's a difference in perception of pre EPO and post EPO drug use, my many words attempts to account for that.

Percy Vera

bompington wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Paul -- where is that climb in Northern Ireland -- I can't read it.

Must be Slieve Croob, I've never been up it but it looks like there's a transmitter access road? 500m+, good hill

Actually I butted in because I'll be in NI this summer on holiday, any suggestions from Paul or anyone else for hills to climb (with or without PEDs, electric motors, philosophy books in the jersey pocket) or otherwise decent routes would be welcome.

Yeah you are right, it's Dree Hill followed by the track up to Slieve Croob.

Where in NI will you be?

andylav

Off topic from title thread but in response to Bakunin et al: if it's Dree Hill / Sieve Croob then it is a brute but not as hard as Windy Gap in my book (either side).

Both feature in the Dromara Cycling Club's Hilly Sportive that takes place in August - see the clubs website at http://www.dromaracc.co.uk/sportive/Spo ... y_2010.htm for more details.

Other stinkers - Church Road in Holywood, Torr Head near Ballycastle, the road beside the Jim Baker stadium near Antrim and the hardest, in my opinion (though not in NI), Gap of Mamore in Donegal.

Bakunin

andylav wrote:

Off topic from title thread but in response to Bakunin et al: if it's Dree Hill / Sieve Croob then it is a brute but not as hard as Windy Gap in my book (either side).

Both feature in the Dromara Cycling Club's Hilly Sportive that takes place in August - see the clubs website at http://www.dromaracc.co.uk/sportive/Spo ... y_2010.htm for more details.

Other stinkers - Church Road in Holywood, Torr Head near Ballycastle, the road beside the Jim Baker stadium near Antrim and the hardest, in my opinion (though not in NI), Gap of Mamore in Donegal.

Thanks -- I've driven over the Gap of Mamore. I would love to give that a go on a bike.

Have you ridden that? Leg breaker?

paulcuthbert

Bakunin wrote:

Paul -- where is that climb in Northern Ireland -- I can't read it.

Spend a lot of time in the North -- writing a book,

Awesome- what's the book about?

It's Slieve Croob in County Down. It's a mountain lying on the edge of the Mournes. The real climb starts from a little village called Finnis, but it's a gradual rise for 20km from near sea level to +125m from my village (Saintfield). The nearest town is Dromara, which is west of Ballynahinch. The summit is the highest you can get to in the Mournes on a road bike. At least that's what it looks like- Spelga Dam is only 400m above sea level, and there aren't many other suitable roads for riding on in the Mournes.

It's tough because the gradient is all over the shop. I posted about it here too. Killer 17% section just before a left turn onto a more gradual rise to the summit after 3 or 4km. The first part is a tarmac road which is fine, but after about 3km of that you have to go through a car park before the climb to the top- it's a sort of gravel walking path after that, so you're dodging walkers and dogs all the way up...and sheep on the fast descent!

There's a video of the Tour of the North going up the road part here. You can probably tell how steep it is by how much they're struggling and how much it has split the pack!

And if you can't from that, just take a look at my Dad's face...


The climb from the car park. Taken from the South-West face. If you look carefully you can follow the path until it goes on round the other side of the mountain to the East.


The view from 2km outside of Saintfield. Slieve Croob sticks up like a smaller version of Mont Ventoux from the rolling countryside of County Down and you can see it from all around.

iainf72

The mask slips?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/ju ... luxembourg?

Doobz

I wonder what its like for him in the peloton since the Landis thing happened!?

afx237vi

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bahati-continues-to-support-landis-personally?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=news_headlines

Bahati seems like a nice fellow

@bahatiracing:

The media is killing me. Don't believe the cyclingnews head line. They forgot 2 mention all the good things I said about @lancearmstrong & about 22 hours ago via UberTwitter

And @LeviLeipheimer @dzabriskie for the sport. WTF about 22 hours ago via UberTwitter

And @lancearmstrong in reply:

@bahatiracing of course they did! #tryingtosetanagenda about 22 hours ago via UberTwitter in reply to bahatiracing

Bakunin

iainf72 wrote:

The mask slips?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/ju ... luxembourg?

The American looked over to the crowd and barked at the fan three times: "Come and do that to my face."

Classic -- always the cowboy.


Thanks Paul -- your Dad looked like he felt that climb.

paulcuthbert

andylav wrote:

Off topic from title thread but in response to Bakunin et al: if it's Dree Hill / Sieve Croob then it is a brute but not as hard as Windy Gap in my book (either side).

Both feature in the Dromara Cycling Club's Hilly Sportive that takes place in August - see the clubs website at http://www.dromaracc.co.uk/sportive/Spo ... y_2010.htm for more details.

Other stinkers - Church Road in Holywood, Torr Head near Ballycastle, the road beside the Jim Baker stadium near Antrim and the hardest, in my opinion (though not in NI), Gap of Mamore in Donegal.

Where is Windy Gap?

Church Road in Holywood I love. Great surface and a constant gradient. Much easier than 'The Croob' as me and Dad now call it.

There's plenty of steep hills around there- the Middle Braniel Road from Gilnahirk to the Upper Braniel Road is great, especially when you get to the top of the Upper. It's not as long, but some steep bits! And the Middle Braniel got resurfaced a few months ago and it's perfect surface- which can't be said for a lot of the country roads in County Down! The Clontonacally Road between Carryduff and Four Winds area is up and down, but going down from Carryduff to Purdysburn and then back up to Four Winds up Cairnshill Road is great.

Torr Road is a fantastic run too- although I'd say the other road from Cushendun to Ballycastle is tougher- it sure was at the end of 4 hours in the saddle anyway!

Some photos of my Dad and my 'Tour of North Antrim' from last August are here

paulcuthbert

Bakunin wrote:

Thanks Paul -- your Dad looked like he felt that climb.

Well he's 53- so it's allowed I guess When he saw that photo, he complained that his face was that way because there was rain in his eye. Yeah yeah Dad!! Still, he hasn't lived down the fact that that day he got off and walked some of the climb because he said "he was scared his chain would snap". I pedalled all of it, but then again I am 30 years his junior!

We've got a healthy rivalry. When I call him he always gives it "when you get home you're gonna suffer. I've been training every day. Prepare to be annihilated", but it never pans out that way for him

dave_1

This is a good thread now, the talk of Northern Ireland's hills .

NI I based riders, I was wondering how you rate the climb of Tor Head? I did it in the Northern Ireland Milk race 18 years back. It was hell...some of your finest won the day back then, Mark Kane, Paul Slane.

andylav

Hi Dave

It was Mark Kane - I was roadside that day and it was epic (as was just getting my car up there)!

Torr Head is brutal but I personally feel that the Gap of Mamore is harder, but then I wasn't racing over either one after 70-80 miles of an already hard stage - just slogging my very overweight body over them as best as I could !

I did the Gap of Mamore as part of the Innishowen 100 a couple of years ago with Mark and he was cresting the top with ease while I was just turning onto the bottom of it after a lumpy run in. He was actually in better shape a couple of years ago than when he raced (his own words) and still rides and races regularly (and impressively), even after breaking his hip badly if a fall at the start of 2009

Paul

Windy Gap is between the Croob and the town of Leitrim - you should take a look at the route of the Mourne Sportive on the Dromara club website as there is another climb on there that is supposed to he harder again (Yellow Road I think)



Back on topic - would be interesting to know if Matt White and Dave Z have been 'assisting with enquiries' - thought Garmin's statement of wanting total honesty from any of their riders and staff was an interesting development.

bompington

Percy Vera wrote:

bompington wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Paul -- where is that climb in Northern Ireland -- I can't read it.

Must be Slieve Croob, I've never been up it but it looks like there's a transmitter access road? 500m+, good hill

Actually I butted in because I'll be in NI this summer on holiday, any suggestions from Paul or anyone else for hills to climb (with or without PEDs, electric motors, philosophy books in the jersey pocket) or otherwise decent routes would be welcome.

Yeah you are right, it's Dree Hill followed by the track up to Slieve Croob.

Where in NI will you be?

We're touring with the caravan, likely venues are Lisburn, between Portstewart and Derry, and Enniskillen / border area
Unless you know better locations I might be able to get past the holiday committee

shinyhelmut

andylav wrote:

Back on topic - would be interesting to know if Matt White and Dave Z have been 'assisting with enquiries' - thought Garmin's statement of wanting total honesty from any of their riders and staff was an interesting development.

Also JV himself. Is he "helping with enquiries" or is he going to have to sack himself?

On a more serious note I was impressed by the Garmin press release, it will be interesting to see how it pans out.