Floyd -- he wrote us a letter...

paulcuthbert

Dave_1 wrote:

This is a good thread now, the talk of Northern Ireland's hills .

NI I based riders, I was wondering how you rate the climb of Tor Head? I did it in the Northern Ireland Milk race 18 years back. It was hell...some of your finest won the day back then, Mark Kane, Paul Slane.

Torr Road is a great road- steep in both directions



If you detour off the road you can get right down to the shore and it's a short, sharp, steep climb back up - although the whole route has great views of the North Channel and the Mull of Kintyre.

I think the Causeway Coastal Route has been voted one of the best drives in the world or something. I'd second that!

skavanagh.bikeradar

Fella's can you start a new thread in a different forum?!

paulcuthbert

bompington wrote:

Percy Vera wrote:

bompington wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Paul -- where is that climb in Northern Ireland -- I can't read it.

Must be Slieve Croob, I've never been up it but it looks like there's a transmitter access road? 500m+, good hill

Actually I butted in because I'll be in NI this summer on holiday, any suggestions from Paul or anyone else for hills to climb (with or without PEDs, electric motors, philosophy books in the jersey pocket) or otherwise decent routes would be welcome.

Yeah you are right, it's Dree Hill followed by the track up to Slieve Croob.

Where in NI will you be?

We're touring with the caravan, likely venues are Lisburn, between Portstewart and Derry, and Enniskillen / border area
Unless you know better locations I might be able to get past the holiday committee

http://www.cycleni.com/

BikingBernie

A surprisingly well-informed account of the Landis revelations.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2010-05-26/news ... nnection/1

paulcuthbert

BikingBernie wrote:

A surprisingly well-informed account of the Landis revelations.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2010-05-26/news ... nnection/1

The irony in the statement that he "came clean" is massive

dave_1

BikingBernie wrote:

A surprisingly well-informed account of the Landis revelations.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2010-05-26/news ... nnection/1

Bernie, you weren't in the crowd at the finish of the last stage of the Tour of Luxembourg a few days back? first time I can remember livestrong being booed...for sure deserved...constantly making himself the story...however, i hope for the sport no federal investigation happens

iainf72

Landis has Lemonds legal team and is confirmed to be dealing with Novitzky

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... emond.html

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Landis has Lemonds legal team and is confirmed to be dealing with Novitzky

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... emond.html

your enemy's enemy is your friend I guess. Think is fair to ask if Landis can afford the fees and also fair to ask, if Lemond was not independently wealthy, would he be taking such a strong stance against Armstrong? Hope they fail.

iainf72

Doesn't make any difference, does it Dave_1? The FDA / FBI / WADA / USADA probably don't give a flying fook about Lance's wealth or power.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Doesn't make any difference, does it Dave_1? The FDA / FBI / WADA / USADA probably don't give a flying fook about Lance's wealth or power.

It does make a difference. You don't know Greg Lemond. I don't. Why you so certain on his motives?...Lemond was upstaged as an athlete and a person in the US, in the US market in cycling anyway.

..and the feds are on LA? Let's wait for them to say that. I'll bet the feds do want to see a winnable case . Like I said before, hundreds will lose sponsors and jobs when LA gets caught legally-you don't care obviously,the sponsors will make for the door -all while the great Indurain who some of you still no doubt admire-75kg and doing 37 minute ascents of Alpe D'huez climber (pull the other one MI)..and World champ 1994 Luc Leblanc.. get away with out sanction. What are you guys on'? I'm angry about that...I'm angry about 1994's write off of a season cause of EPO use...do you care? You're stock trade is 1999-2005 TDF fraud, and it was clean in the 1990s eh?...look the other way is your atitude to other cycling greats.

iainf72

Lets reduce it down. If he defrauded and insurance company, should he face a criminal trial?

Forget all the sporting stuff etc. If someone commits fraud, should they face charges for it?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Lets reduce it down. If he defrauded and insurance company, should he face a criminal trial?

Forget all the sporting stuff etc. If someone commits fraud, should they face charges for it?

We don't know the result yet. Head in the sane perhaps...but just like like you guys and your hoards on here who never want to admit the fall out from what is likely to happen when the Landis case gets going. LA should be made unwelcome in the pro cycling world. Was glad a brave fan had a go at Lux tour...but's he too big a name to fail I'm afraid..on the cost benefit analysis he should be told to quietly f right off post TDF 2010.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Lets reduce it down. If he defrauded and insurance company, should he face a criminal trial?

Forget all the sporting stuff etc. If someone commits fraud, should they face charges for it?

We don't know the result yet. Head in the sand perhaps...but just like you guys and your hoards on here who never want to admit the fall out from what is likely to happen when the Landis case gets going. LA should be made unwelcome in the pro cycling world. Was glad a brave fan had a go at Lux tour...but's he too big a name to fail I'm afraid..on the cost benefit analysis he should be told to quietly f right off post TDF 2010.

andyp

No single rider has ever been bigger than the sport. This includes Lance Armstrong.

dennisn

andyp wrote:

No single rider has ever been bigger than the sport. This includes Lance Armstrong.

Aren't you comparing two completely different things? Humans and sports??? Hate to say it but humans are the sport. They created it. Take it to new levels every year. Cheat at it. Win money at it. Cycling is simply a word, nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't do a thing on it's own(a human does that). All humans are bigger than the sport. The sport doesn't even exist without us wanting it to. Bigger than the sport? H*ll I'm bigger than the sport. You low rate yourself.

andyp

Thanks for that Dennis. You completely miss the point. Again.

finchy

Dave1- I posted this about 9 pages back but you didn't answer it. What are your thoughts on ths question:


You have an interesting point about innocent riders having their livelihoods harmed by cleaning up the sport, but is it actually valid? How many professional cyclists are there now compared to pre-Festina, Cofidis & Puerto times? Have new teams come in and plugged the gaps left by the demise of the Phonaks in this world? I'm not saying you're right or wrong, it would just be interesting to know if the numbers have risen or fallen.

DavMartinR

dennisn wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I think you're mistaking evidence for truth. Or you think that because someone says something that it's truth. Evidence is everywhere out there. Truth, well, good luck in finding very much of that. :roll: :roll:

If it got to a court, and a guilty verdict was returned, you wouldn't accept it, would you Dennis?

Why would you think I wouldn't accept it? I've never said I thought that anyone was guilty or innocent. Never even said that I cared whether "they" were or not. My whole point all along has been that YOU don't know what you think you know about all of this. It's simply speculation on most everyones part yet everyone is demanding justice. Almost like a lynch mob. You've all convinced yourselves that you know it all and on that basis you want to "Hang 'em High". I'm against that sort of thinking. You've made more(or less) of ME than there is. Just like you've made more (or less) of any of, at the very least, a couple dozen riders, doctors, team members, and God knows who else.

Sounds like your having a Rumsfeld moment there Dennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPe1OiKQuk

DavMartinR

dennisn wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I think you're mistaking evidence for truth. Or you think that because someone says something that it's truth. Evidence is everywhere out there. Truth, well, good luck in finding very much of that. :roll: :roll:

If it got to a court, and a guilty verdict was returned, you wouldn't accept it, would you Dennis?

Why would you think I wouldn't accept it? I've never said I thought that anyone was guilty or innocent. Never even said that I cared whether "they" were or not. My whole point all along has been that YOU don't know what you think you know about all of this. It's simply speculation on most everyones part yet everyone is demanding justice. Almost like a lynch mob. You've all convinced yourselves that you know it all and on that basis you want to "Hang 'em High". I'm against that sort of thinking. You've made more(or less) of ME than there is. Just like you've made more (or less) of any of, at the very least, a couple dozen riders, doctors, team members, and God knows who else.

Sounds like your having a Rumsfeld moment there Dennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPe1OiKQuk

No_Ta_Doctor

Hold on a minute Dave, Plenty of cycling fans are highly suspicious of Indurain's success and I for one would be hapy to see the whistle blown on him. As for the impending death of cycling should LA go down, that's far from certain, I for one think it could do a lot for cleaning up cycling, it could well signal the death of omerta. The alternative is that everyone knows cycling is full of cheats - and that the biggest don't get caught. That's where viewing figures can decline and sponsors pull out. I understand your worry, but I think there's a very strong positive side to this for cycling which you don't seem to see. The cat is well and truly out of the bag now, there's no way of putting it back in. Even from the perspective of damage limitation the best outcome is a proper case being made. Cycling needs to do the equivalent of going on Oprah and pleading forgiveness.

paulcuthbert

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

Fella's can you start a new thread in a different forum?!

So pictures of kittens you don't mind but when we're actually talking about cycling you have an issue?

Get a grip

petejuk

No tA Doctor wrote:

Hold on a minute Dave, Plenty of cycling fans are highly suspicious of Indurain's success and I for one would be hapy to see the whistle blown on him. As for the impending death of cycling should LA go down, that's far from certain, I for one think it could do a lot for cleaning up cycling, it could well signal the death of omerta. The alternative is that everyone knows cycling is full of cheats - and that the biggest don't get caught. That's where viewing figures can decline and sponsors pull out. I understand your worry, but I think there's a very strong positive side to this for cycling which you don't seem to see. The cat is well and truly out of the bag now, there's no way of putting it back in. Even from the perspective of damage limitation the best outcome is a proper case being made. Cycling needs to do the equivalent of going on Oprah and pleading forgiveness.

I doubt there will ever be a proper case or investigation made. Just look at Op Puerto, Valverde etc. It took ages and ended up being a bit of a farce considering the time and effort put in. I think this was because of the financial implications in an investigation of this magnitude. The drive for a cleaner sport is virtuous but without financial backing its worth precious little. The evidence will have to be pretty damning to take on the likes of the LA legal machine.

dennisn

petejuk wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

The evidence will have to be pretty damning to take on the likes of the LA legal machine.

So fill us all in on this "LA legal machine" that you obviously know so much about.

Bakunin

The Empire Strikes Back?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... enges.html


Things are starting to heat up.

top_bhoy

Dave_1, your argument holds no water in the sense that people in everyday life have been shafted and affected by the shennanigans and criminal activities of the company they legally worked for. There is no reason in this instance that LA should escape justice, if he is guilty.

I say this recognising I am unaffected by any redundancy in the sport of cycling - but I also don't want young athletes to damage their health through drug use because the authorities failed to act on the guilty. I haven't done any analysis but accepting that a few hundred would be out of a job, I'd say that is worth it to try and protect others from drug use in the future.

dave_1

andyp wrote:

No single rider has ever been bigger than the sport. This includes Lance Armstrong.

perfectly defendable position you have Andyp, you're probably right but I'd still prefer not to know if you're wrong ... they should have taken LA down much earlier in his career to stop this situation....

dave_1

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Dave_1, your argument holds no water in the sense that people in everyday life have been shafted and affected by the shennanigans and criminal activities of the company they legally worked for. There is no reason in this instance that LA should escape justice, if he is guilty.

I say this recognising I am unaffected by any redundancy in the sport of cycling - but I also don't want young athletes to damage their health through drug use because the authorities failed to act on the guilty. I haven't done any analysis but accepting that a few hundred would be out of a job, I'd say that is worth it to try and protect others from drug use in the future.

top bhoy, top expat maybe even...apart when you say erroneously I have been banned...there is no way Miguel Indurain should escape justice if he's guilty, so we agree. 6ft 2 and 75 kg were MIs stats

... your concern for young athletes health is still not worth mass unemployment in cycling ,....the riders have their health heaviliy monitored at team and UCI/ testing levels...the number of investigations in the sport..

No_Ta_Doctor

petejuk wrote:

I doubt there will ever be a proper case or investigation made. Just look at Op Puerto, Valverde etc. It took ages and ended up being a bit of a farce considering the time and effort put in. I think this was because of the financial implications in an investigation of this magnitude. The drive for a cleaner sport is virtuous but without financial backing its worth precious little. The evidence will have to be pretty damning to take on the likes of the LA legal machine.

I think the better comparison is BALCO, especially given who is involved in the investigation. The Puerta case isn't particularly relevant for two reasons: first, it was Spanish and the legal system and ethos there are very different. Personally I find it hard to trust any Spanish rider because of the latter. Secondly, one of the more complex legal issues in Puerto was that blood doping wasn't illegal at the time the the blood was stored. Banned by the IOC and UCI and WADA and everyone, but not a criminal activity. That menat that there was a serious legal challenge to revealing any information about who the blood belonged to, let alone making and criminal investigation stick.

What LA is up against is altogether different, there are possibilities of him facing charges of fraud and embezzlement of public money (or something similar). As was noted earlier in the thread, Al Capone went down for tax evasion.... If there is enough corroborating evidence to back Landis' claims (another eye witness for example, or a paper/money trail that leads back to a dodgy doc) then there will be a prosecution of some sort. That's obviously a big if, but it's certainly out there.

Lastly, Landis has been served a cease and desist letter from Verbruggen, an indication that there is at least one person/organisation that is willing to pursue Landis legally to protect his name. That puts the ball in Landis' court - if he doesn't stop then will they sue? That's what the letter says. But that gives Floyd an open door into a court of law, if he wants it. That opens a whole new can of worms. It's interesting that LA hasn't sued, despite these allegations being the most comprehensive he's faced. He's won all his other cases and hasn't been shy of using legal muscle before. I imagine that regardless of guilt/innocence LA doesn't want to give Landis the chance to stand in a courtroom and repeat it all. Verbruggen may give that chance anyway.

BikingBernie

Dave_1 wrote:

... your concern for young athletes health is still not worth mass unemployment in cycling ,....the riders have their health heaviliy monitored at team and UCI/ testing levels...the number of investigations in the sport..

This was already answered earlier...

Dave_1 wrote:

..very few people are dead of drugs in this sport considering the thousands involved and the testing is far improved so don't hide behind that sham argument

Two years ago, author Jean-Francois Quinet published "The Secrets of the Festina Affair," which detailed drug use among riders in recent Tours. Quinet said he found that "close to 100 percent" of the riders were using banned substances.

Further, Quinet said, team doctors have become more savvy than the UCI in dealing with illegal substances.

"The drugs they are currently giving to their cyclists might not even be ones for which a test has been developed," Quinet said. "Their M.O. is to stay a few steps ahead of the testing."

One way some riders have attempted to stay ahead is using EPO, an endurance-boosting hormone that is produced naturally in the kidneys and is undetectable by current tests. But its use brings serious risks.

Quinet said he was able to document 80 riders in the 1980s and 1990s who died because of EPO-related heart problems.

"The real damage was done at night," Quinet said. "When the riders went to sleep, their pulses slowed down but their hearts fought to keep the circulation flowing. That left them as prime candidates for heart attacks and strokes."

Most EPO-related deaths, Quinet said, took place in Belgium and Holland in the early 1990s, when riders dabbled in the drug without supervision from a team physician. Most recently, the deaths of several Dutch cylo-cross riders were blamed on their misuse of EPO.

http://www.press-enterprise.com/newsarc ... 24010.html

---

The Times
24 February 2009.
World in motion: why we need to know what killed Frederiek Nolf

You may not have heard of Frederiek Nolf, but he is dead, so now is probably your last chance. He was five days short of his 22nd birthday

---

Cyclingnews.com
June 3, 2003
Salanson dies

French Professional Fabrice Salanson (Brioches la Boulangère) was found dead today in his hotel room just hours before the start of the Deutschland Tour (Tour of Germany), according to German wire reports. The 23 year old was found by his roomate Sebastien Chavanel at 8:30am local time on the floor, with one leg on the bed. He died in his sleep between 2:30 and 4:00am

---

cyclingnews.com
January 11, 2003
Denis Zanette dead from heart attack

32 year old Italian professional Denis Zanette has died as a result of a heart attack, suffered while visiting the dentist on Friday, January 10.

---

The Guardian,
Monday 16 February 2004.
Inquiry into Belgian cyclist's death raises new fears over EPO
Tally of deaths reaches eight as drug suspicions rise

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, 2003 aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, 2003 aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, 2003 aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, 2003 aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/fe ... g.cycling1

---

P.s. those who might try to argue that the above deaths were probably due to natural causes should consider just how rare such deaths are amongst those not already suffering from heart disease and so on. One major study of American high-school athletes found that the incidence of such deaths was only 0.46 deaths per 100,000 athletes and other studies have found a rate between 0.28 and 1 death per 100,000 athletes. See:

http://www.americanheart.org/downloadab ... osCA06.pdf

So amongst a couple of thousand, at most, professional cyclists, all of whom are under constant medical supervision and monitoring, such deaths should be almost vanishingly rare...

BikingBernie

No tA Doctor wrote:

[It's interesting that LA hasn't sued, despite these allegations being the most comprehensive he's faced. He's won all his other cases and hasn't been shy of using legal muscle before.

As far as I am aware Armstrong has only won one libel case, the one against the Sunday Times, and that relied on exploiting Britain's ridiculous (and much criticised) libel laws. When he tried the same thing in France he was fined for abuse of process, and in all the other cases he has threatened to sue and then quietly let the issue slip.

He only won the Sunday Times case on what was effectively a technicality and a slight changing of the wording used in the article so that it argued that there were 'questions to be answered' would have seen the Times win. They would probably have also have won if the evidence about the Epo in his 1999 Tour samples had been disclosed prior to the Times printing the article. This material was in the public domain by the time of the trial but any evidence that comes to light after a 'libel' is made is inadmissible, even if it proves that the person making the 'libellous' claim is speaking the truth.