Hell of Ashdown

gazpacho

I slipped on the first bit of ice at the bottom of Hogtrough Hill, thankfully going at 1mph so just a grazed elbow, but annoyingly a scuffed Rapha top!! Confidence was a bit shot after that.

I think the lane going towards Bayleys Hill was a nightmare and should have been diverted via Ide Hill. Hats off to anyone who did that lane without unclipping - can't see it somehow though.

Glad I got home in one piece, and kinda glad I'm not a crash virgin now.

Boleynboy

I rode the Ashdown (100k) on Sunday and found it to be a double edged sword.
I am an experienced UK and European sportive, fondo, etape rider, had never done the Ashdown and was attracted to the obvious challenge.
The route was awesome with no real let up in the climbs, but that is what you would want and expect if you had entered.
The organisation was also as good as any other sportive of this size that I have ridden in the UK.
The big problem, as many have already stated was the ice. I have never ridden in such dangerous conditions in many winters of riding the back lanes of Sussex, Surrey and Kent, including many rides through snow on the roads over the South Downs.
This was different, the ice had formed mostly from thawing fields during the previous day, which effectively froze into ice rinks during the night frost.
In some places the ice was obvious and could be braved or walked over, in others it was underneath you before you knew it was there.
I had three riders fall in front of me at different sections of the course, whilst I through luck rather than judgement stayed upright.
For anyone on this forum to criticise other riders abilities to ride over ice, or decide to walk over and call them the hazard is laughable.
There is nothing macho or cred bolstering about riding on ice, as ice takes no prisoners.
I am an experienced snowboader and mtb rider and happily admit to getting off and walking over several sections, mainly because I was determined to finish and did not want to phone into work on Monday with a broken collarbone, arm etc!
Personally, I would not hold the organisers responsible if I had had a fall, you have to take responsibility for some things in this life, and riding this route in freezing conditions was always going to have its dangers.
Should the organisers have changed to their alternative route, in retrospect yes, to save their reputation because of the amount of people who fell and maybe were injured(i have no figures), but hindsight is a wonderful thing!
I enjoyed the day but the ice defianetly took the edge off proceedings.
I will enter again next year but if the conditions were similiar I would not ride, because I would not want to sacrifice my season for one sportive in January if I had an injury due to the conditions.

Tigonabike

I rode on Sunday - my first ever UK sportive - and was one of those who fell quite badly and have two layers of ripped clothing and a lot of cuts and bruises to show for it. But it was my choice to ride. My choice to walk on the bits of road that looked dangerous. My choice to be going a bit too fast when I hit some black ice and came down hard. I'm not complaining.

I normally ride Audax events which are generally a lot more demanding than this, without all the pampering touches, like arrows to show which way to go, marshalls at places where you might go wrong, a mechanic to fix all your little problems and a van to ferry you home if you get a bit tired. The HotA struck me as a very well-organised event. I thought it very considerate to put signs up warning us of some of the icy patches but I wouldn't have complained if they hadn't.

Sportives aren't races, they're just big bike rides along public roads. If you can't accept responsibility for your own safe conduct on the road, stay on the turbo trainer.

Sorry if this upsets anyone but the discussion so far is a bit whingy in my view.

Fixed Wheelnut

Twenty Twenty hindsight is a great skill to have, unfortunately the plummeting temperature Saturday night lead to more ice forming after the route was checked Saturday.
Whilst being checked for route markings moved signs etc when ice patches were discovered there was no phone signal to reach the HQ and many riders were already on the road by that time so the marshall made an on the spot decision to stay and add extra warning signs.
The last two years has seen some extreme colder weather for the event and the club will look in to possibly moving the date but on the whole feedback has been of praise and a perhaps perverse enjoyment of the challenge the ride provides.

Explanation from our club president on the website http://www.hell.gb.com/

• As has now become the 'norm' we have been inundated with thank you Emails which is most heartening.
• We are pleased to learn that the efforts of the marshals and officials are appreciated and that the riders felt that the event was well organised.
• Although everyone found the course tough and particularly harrowing, because of the ice nevertheless you all seem to have enjoyed your day.
• However we have received two Emails questioning whether the event should have been cancelled at the last minute.
• There have also been rumblings in the Forums as to why the 'icy conditions' route was not used?

Let’s face it any cyclists who's foolhardy enough to venture into the countryside in midwinter must be prepared to meet ice on the road!
The HELL of the ASHDOWN Challenge is no exception.

WHY WASN'T THE EVENT CANCELLED?
We sent out Emails asking everyone to read the notice on the website which set out the conditions under which we would cancel the event:
'If there is there is the prospect of deep fresh snow then we may decide to cancel the event. In this case notice will be posted on website on Saturday PM'.

WHY WASN'T THE 'ICE CONDITIONS' ROUTE USED?
As announced on the website we had in place planned precautions should there be cause to anticipate widespread ice conditions:
'If there is a likelihood of widespread icy patches in the country lanes then an alternative route will be used which avoids some of these'

Whilst 'widespread icy patches' (the weather forecaster's terminology) were predicted for other regions, none was forecast for our area.
What is more relevant is the monitoring of the situation on the ground.
The team putting up the signs reported that although there were some icy patches around this did not warrant changing the route.
During the night however, although -1 was forecast it actually plummeted to minus 5. Therefore on the morning of the event we were faced with widespread ice not only in the lanes [which would have been bypassed on the ‘icy conditions’ route] but also on the roads of the main route itself. However the decision to use the ‘icy conditions route’ must be made sufficiently far in advance to allow both re-waymarking of the route and also contacting and redirecting the marshals. It is therefore impossible to change things at the last minute.
We had advised the use of winter tyres. Slick tyres with no tread are not very effective on ice. We are of course deeply sorry if anyone was injured.

[/url]

Fixed Wheelnut

Some photos I took after Marshalling here, click the photo to go to the gallery on Flickr

this guy was on 75" fixed more than I could manage on those hills

Le Commentateur

The vast majority of the route was ice free and rideable; the marshalling, signing on and catering en route and at the finish were great; it was just those those three problem lanes (bottom of Hogtrough Hill, above Dormansland and the approach to Bayleys Hill) that are the issue. Surely it must have been fairly obvious there was a risk of ice -- it has been cold for weeks, so why leave it to the day before to make the call about which route to use?

I think the signage people just called it wrong on the Saturday... maybe the decision to adopt the alternative route needed to be made decisely beforehand rather than leave it to the foot soldiers putting up the arrows. To blame the weather forecast for being wrong and say peoples' tyres were maybe at fault... seems a bit unfair. Only studded tyres will give useful traction on ice, and whether it was minus 1 or minus 5, both are below freezing -- the organisers gave themselves no contingency regarding temperature fluctuation and got caught out as a result.

It's always going to be a bit of a lottery in January -- two years ago it was lovely weather -- but there would surely be much less risk of icy weather if the event was held in the last week of Feb or first week of March. That's still very early in the year compared with most events.

ugo.santalucia

At least an apology... don't blame the weather, don't blame the riders who come poorly equipped, please... pathetic

FransJacques

Fixed Wheelnut:

"Twenty Twenty hindsight is a great skill to have, unfortunately the plummeting temperature Saturday night lead to more ice forming after the route was checked Saturday. "

That's such a typically pussy way to blame something else. You don't need hindsight dolt you need a weather forecast. Someone posted a weather forcast earlier in this thread (could have been me) and wrote "be careful out there boys/girls, it'll be into the minus temps on Sat night".

Your process of checking something AFTER the lead riders have set off is a broken process. Relying on tools that don't work in all locations on your course also means you had a broken process. I talk from experience that it's not easy to run one of these thing, you need volunteers with cars who are up at 5:30 to check signs and in this case ice. You need communications and back up of communications.

Sorry to rant but don't even start with the harry hindsight BS - that's simply insulting and poor.

Cumulonimbus

So can we say we have found out what happens when hell freezes over then?

Road Red

I dont buy the excuse for not changing the route. The temperatures had been below freezing for a few days. They had advertised the ability to change the route if icy. The route was successfully changed last year, when it wasn't as cold!

No complaints about the actual organisation of the event, marshalling etc. Everyone worked very hard on the day to ensure we all got around as safely and well fed as possible. However, the organisers must accept some responsibility for sending people out on a course that was not safe.

I agree that people made their own choice about riding on the day knowing that some ice was inevitable. However, my decision to ride was somewhat influenced by being told at the start that the course had been checked, there was no need to alter the route and that it was 'reasonably safe'.

The bottom line is that the organisers ran an event that had a fall and injury rate far higher than average, even allowing for the time of year. They cannot absolve themselves entirely for responsibility for that.

pizzoferro33

whats with all the whinging ..... some have already pointed out, nobody is forced to take part. This was I believe the fastest selling UK sportive - ever. What does that tell you ! ?.

I took part, yep, wasn't 100% fit for it, knew the dangers, took precautions, walked, like lots of others whereI felt unsure with the ice. It was a great day.

I started riding with a terrible cold/cough/blocked up.... I finished with a body that was able to breath properly, no sneezing etc, becasue of all the fresh air I was able to breath in, in the lovley Kent/Surrey area.

I'll sign up for next year, along with my 2 cycling buddies that enjoyed it as much as me. This was a fantastic event - and what better excuse is there to actually REALLY deserrving a proper Sunday roast in a good pub once your'e done !

stuinnes

Also did the ride this year, first proper sportive in the UK. I live in Germany and my girlfriend and i travelled through the blizzards of central europe to get to the race... glad i did as it was an experience.

Thought it was a well-organised race myself, a few signs were missing that got us lost but marshalls great and got us back on track, and yes we experienced the ice patches but were lucky enough to either see it in advance, or have a rider point it out for us. Either that or we just slowed right down over it. No problem.

I knew what i was getting myself in for before hand as i seen the pictures of snow last year so expected it to be a hard ride. My problem was star hill not that patch of ice before Bayleys Hill but more the bloody hill itself Oh and all the beer i had over xmas! I got off and walked over that section as did everyone else.

It was -1 before i set off (according to the car) so knew it could be icy in patches so was as careful as i could be. I fully expected to see snow as 2 weeks before the country was covered.

I did also have winter tyres on the bike, if they made any difference like. If anything happened it was my responsibility and no-one else's and if i was worried about ice i wouldn't have done the race in the first place, id probably not even take a bike out at winter.

I'll be signing up next for sure. A proper hard race that even though it was hard as hell, was interesting to say the least. A bit like "tough guy" for cylists!

Seanos

ugo.santalucia wrote:

At least an apology... don't blame the weather, don't blame the riders who come poorly equipped, please... pathetic

Why are you demanding an apology? It's not even as if you did the ride. And your constant bitching is getting pretty tiresome.

Fixed Wheelnut

Frans Jaques, I wasn't being condesending, route checking or which route to use was not my decision to make.
I was at Four Elms and did shout to most riders to be careful but also witnessed some risky cornering around that blind bend.
Lessons have been learned and changes will be made no doubt.

I have put forward a suggestion for next year to use some different coloured waymark arrows to allow the 'Ice route' to be marked out at the same time.
This would allow an on the spot decision to be made on route choice with an extra manned chip reader the choice could even be left to rider discretion so we would know which rider took which route.

I have asked Bryan to clarify the number of injuries, I know of at least one rider who sustained two broken ribs due to a front wheel blow out at 35mph [no ice involved]

Some riders took a wrong turn and a way-marker was later found thrown in a hedge, this was in the area [Chart Lane] that we received complaints from residents at rider behavior so presume it was somebody with a grudge that removed it.

On the whole feedback has been positive and many have said they would rather not see the date move as the weather is part of the challenge.
I'll keep you posted as to what happens or keep an eye on the HOTA web site.

Tigonabike

FransJacques wrote:

Fixed Wheelnut:

That's such a typically pussy way to blame something else. You don't need hindsight dolt you need a weather forecast.

Sorry to rant but don't even start with the harry hindsight BS - that's simply insulting and poor.

Actually, I think it's your post that is insulting and poor. If you can't make your points without resorting to abuse, don't make them. You own FWN an apology.

catfordcc

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

Neil A

Fixed Wheelnut wrote:

I have put forward a suggestion for next year to use some different coloured waymark arrows to allow the 'Ice route' to be marked out at the same time.
This would allow an on the spot decision to be made on route choice with an extra manned chip reader the choice could even be left to rider discretion so we would know which rider took which route.

That sounds like a great idea for the future which should appease the most ardent critics.

juggler

Fixed Wheelnut wrote:

Twenty Twenty hindsight is a great skill to have, unfortunately the plummeting temperature Saturday night lead to more ice forming after the route was checked Saturday.
Whilst being checked for route markings moved signs etc when ice patches were discovered there was no phone signal to reach the HQ and many riders were already on the road by that time so the marshall made an on the spot decision to stay and add extra warning signs.
The last two years has seen some extreme colder weather for the event and the club will look in to possibly moving the date but on the whole feedback has been of praise and a perhaps perverse enjoyment of the challenge the ride provides.

Explanation from our club president on the website http://www.hell.gb.com/

• As has now become the 'norm' we have been inundated with thank you Emails which is most heartening.
• We are pleased to learn that the efforts of the marshals and officials are appreciated and that the riders felt that the event was well organised.
• Although everyone found the course tough and particularly harrowing, because of the ice nevertheless you all seem to have enjoyed your day.
• However we have received two Emails questioning whether the event should have been cancelled at the last minute.
• There have also been rumblings in the Forums as to why the 'icy conditions' route was not used?

Let’s face it any cyclists who's foolhardy enough to venture into the countryside in midwinter must be prepared to meet ice on the road!
The HELL of the ASHDOWN Challenge is no exception.

WHY WASN'T THE EVENT CANCELLED?
We sent out Emails asking everyone to read the notice on the website which set out the conditions under which we would cancel the event:
'If there is there is the prospect of deep fresh snow then we may decide to cancel the event. In this case notice will be posted on website on Saturday PM'.

WHY WASN'T THE 'ICE CONDITIONS' ROUTE USED?
As announced on the website we had in place planned precautions should there be cause to anticipate widespread ice conditions:
'If there is a likelihood of widespread icy patches in the country lanes then an alternative route will be used which avoids some of these'

Whilst 'widespread icy patches' (the weather forecaster's terminology) were predicted for other regions, none was forecast for our area.
What is more relevant is the monitoring of the situation on the ground.
The team putting up the signs reported that although there were some icy patches around this did not warrant changing the route.
During the night however, although -1 was forecast it actually plummeted to minus 5. Therefore on the morning of the event we were faced with widespread ice not only in the lanes [which would have been bypassed on the ‘icy conditions’ route] but also on the roads of the main route itself. However the decision to use the ‘icy conditions route’ must be made sufficiently far in advance to allow both re-waymarking of the route and also contacting and redirecting the marshals. It is therefore impossible to change things at the last minute.
We had advised the use of winter tyres. Slick tyres with no tread are not very effective on ice. We are of course deeply sorry if anyone was injured.

[/url]

Going to wade in (or skate)with my tuppence. Blaming the weather forecast for not being accurate is realy lame. 'They forecasted -1 but it was actually -5 , so we take no responsibility for the road conditions'... is that really what you are saying? I checked the forecast at the weekend as i like to know whetherit is it ok to ride or not.... Saturday night they were forecasting -4 for Southampton not a million miles away from Kent... actually turned out to be -7. Anyways not sure what the difference between -1 and -5 would have made as water freezes at 0 does it not?

ugo.santalucia

catfordcc wrote:

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

You are right, I didn't ride it, because I didn't trust your judgement... and rightly so... I'm not keen to jeopardise my 2010 riding season to skate on Kent's ice. It was clear since the beginning of last week that the weekend would have been very icy and after friday's heavy rain it was OBVIOUS that the roads were to be treacherous if not gritted (you can check my post on this thread early last week). You seem to be the only ones who didn't take notice of this, which is quite embarrassing being the organisers.

However, I paid 20 pounds for it, so if you don't mind I like to have my say.

I am speaking based on other riders tales, true, at least one of them in my club I spoke personally to. The general theme, if not the only version beside yours, seems to be that the B route should have been used, if the event was to go ahead at all.
You didn't use it and several riders got caught in the ice, fell and got injured. Is it not enough for you to accept a bit of responsability and issue an apology? Does somebody need to die in order for you to admit you got it wrong?

ugo.santalucia

catfordcc wrote:

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

... and one other thing... as I assume your event has an insurance policy, like any sportive (otherwise why paying an entry fee), have you checked with the insurance company that the event was fully covered even under such extreme circumstances... meaning widespread ice widely forecasted (apart for the one you checked, clearly)... in other words you did let people go knowing there was ice on the roads?
It seems very strange to me that any insurance company would take such risk

bigmat

ugo.santalucia wrote:

catfordcc wrote:

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

... and one other thing... as I assume your event has an insurance policy, like any sportive (otherwise why paying an entry fee), have you checked with the insurance company that the event was fully covered even under such extreme circumstances... meaning widespread ice widely forecasted (apart for the one you checked, clearly)... in other words you did let people go knowing there was ice on the roads?
It seems very strange to me that any insurance company would take such risk

I wouldn't imagine for a second that insurance would cover any accident that happened on the bit of road that had been closed by the police due to ice. Was there actually insurance in place at all? I'd hope that would be a prerequisite for running a sportive (especially one in January) but then the organisers clearly didn't cough up for cancellation insurance which I thought was a bit lame but then maybe it was really expensive.

Don't want to have too much of a dig though, I only fell off once and wasn't injured. Was a good early season workout, and we're all free to decide whether to give it another go or not next year.

kingstongraham

Fixed Wheelnut wrote:

I have put forward a suggestion for next year to use some different coloured waymark arrows to allow the 'Ice route' to be marked out at the same time.

That sounds like a really good idea.

I was out walking near Leith Hill the day before, and wouldn't have fancied cycling in a bunch with the ice around there, so ducked out of HOTA as I expected it to be as bad or worse over there given the weather forecast I saw. I'm very surprised to come on here and read that the ice was unexpected/not provided for, especially when there was an "ice route" promised. Doesn't affect me either way really, because I'd decided I wouldn't enjoy it anyway, apart from knowing I'm not going to plan this for next year.

pontarlier_pete

My word, what a lot of fuss. Whatever happened to people making decisions for themselves :?:

It's a difficult position for the organisers to be in. In a perfect world, they would adopt an "It's your choice, and if you decide not to we'll refund your entry" policy, but then they probably couldn't afford to run it in the first place.

ballspondroad

There's a very brief report on the HOTA in this weeks CW. It mentions that conditions were icy and has a few pics (including a nice one of a well equipped London Dynamo charging up a hill), but nothing to suggest anything out of the ordinary occured. Most of the report is about the rapid selling out of places on this year's sportives and says 'more sportives have joined the calendar to make it an ever more crowded marketplace'. Personally, I would have thought that the name of this particular sportive would have been a clue as to what to expect.

ugo.santalucia

ugo.santalucia wrote:

catfordcc wrote:

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

... and one other thing... as I assume your event has an insurance policy, like any sportive (otherwise why paying an entry fee), have you checked with the insurance company that the event was fully covered even under such extreme circumstances... meaning widespread ice widely forecasted (apart for the one you checked, clearly)... in other words you did let people go knowing there was ice on the roads?
It seems very strange to me that any insurance company would take such risk

A very fundamental question still in need of an answer... :?

kingstongraham

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

catfordcc wrote:

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

... and one other thing... as I assume your event has an insurance policy, like any sportive (otherwise why paying an entry fee), have you checked with the insurance company that the event was fully covered even under such extreme circumstances... meaning widespread ice widely forecasted (apart for the one you checked, clearly)... in other words you did let people go knowing there was ice on the roads?
It seems very strange to me that any insurance company would take such risk

A very fundamental question still in need of an answer... :?

I still can't work out why you are so bothered. You had clearly decided not to do the ride before you knew whether a) there was actually any problem with ice as you suspected, or b) if the ice avoidance diversion route was to be used. Like me, you took the decision for yourself with the knowledge it could be icy, and you didn't fancy that.

Is everyone else less knowledgable than us superior beings? Or did they just make a different decision with access to the same information?

gazpacho

I blame the parents...

ugo.santalucia

KingstonGraham wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

catfordcc wrote:

UGO seems very knowledgeable about, and super critical of, an event he didn't even ride.
Let us correct just one false statement he made:
'the main roads were fine'
WRONG, some of the worst ice appeared overnight on roads which would have still formed part of the route even if had been possible to put in place the alternative one at the last minute.

... and one other thing... as I assume your event has an insurance policy, like any sportive (otherwise why paying an entry fee), have you checked with the insurance company that the event was fully covered even under such extreme circumstances... meaning widespread ice widely forecasted (apart for the one you checked, clearly)... in other words you did let people go knowing there was ice on the roads?
It seems very strange to me that any insurance company would take such risk

A very fundamental question still in need of an answer... :?

I still can't work out why you are so bothered. You had clearly decided not to do the ride before you knew whether a) there was actually any problem with ice as you suspected, or b) if the ice avoidance diversion route was to be used. Like me, you took the decision for yourself with the knowledge it could be icy, and you didn't fancy that.

Is everyone else less knowledgable than us superior beings? Or did they just make a different decision with access to the same information?

If you go back a page or two and read my posts, you'll find out why I am bothered... I can't keep repeating the same things over and over...

Tigonabike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

If you go back a page or two and read my posts, you'll find out why I am bothered... I can't keep repeating the same things over and over...[/quote]


Er, you do rather seem to be repeating yourself over and over again. I think we've all got your point, we just disagree.

The weather forecast for tomorrow isn't bad. Maybe you should go for a ride on your bike and let off a bit of steam that way. Not that I'm encouraging you to do that, you understand. You need to make a full risk assessment for yourself before deciding whether to ride or not. After all, there may be some potholes on the road that I don't know about, or possibly one or two aggressive and impatient motorists who won't give you enough space when passing.

Fuji Mackers

Ugo - if you put as much effort into your cycling as you do with your complaining you'd be quite a good cyclist!