Hell of Ashdown

ugo.santalucia

By the way... for the cockiest among you... a friend of mine did it and saw three broken collar bones...

Talking of bike control on the ice...

phreak

Our club rides had a series of prangs at the back end of last year through a combination of factors (ice not being one of them). You can't generalize really. As has been said already, if you go over the ice slowly and straight then you're not going to have too much go wrong. Even if you tumble you're going slowly. If you're going so fast over an icy bit of road that you break a bone then it does raise questions as to your sense for me.

I am not a girl

I also find it difficult to understand why the organiser decided the conditions on the minor roads did not amount to the description below and re-route the event . A friend of mine fell , hitting a rider who had fallen in front of him, on the ice near Dormansland . Although not travelling fast at the time , he fell badly , breaking his thumb in the process. He tried to call the emergency number with no success and ended up after a 40 minute wait having to ride to east Grinstead and get a train home. I imagine that there must have been plenty more accidents and injuries during the day .
I totally accept however that we could at any point have decided not to complete the ride if we deemed the conditions too dangerous and in a perverse way i enjoyed the additional challenge of getting throught the icy patches and got an even bigger sense of achievement in finishing the ride but on reflection it would have been the sensible thing to do to re-route to the alternative plan.

ICY CONDITIONS
• If there is a likelihood of widespread icy patches in the country lanes then an alternative route will be used which avoids some of these.

Gazzaputt

Neil A wrote:

God, talk about moaning. I didn't have to get off once, just unclip one pedal and scoot across the ice if it's that bad. Keep your weight central, don't brake and don't steer. Anticipate the ice and glide over it. If you're that nervous, walk across the verge or the gritty bit at the side of the road. Don't blame the event because you can't balance on your bike!!

It's January, it's freezing, it's going to be icy! There were numerous warning signs put out and help from marshalls.

I hear what your saying but the ice on the downhill sections mentioned would make them outright dangerous. No bike control can help when hitting ice at speed and the bike going from under you.

I took the decision not to ride as it could be dangerous. I think I was right in that.

phreak

This is the thing though. For me there were no parts of the course that you would/should have hit an icy patch at speed. Not if you had your eyes peeled and wits about you. Plus there was plenty of teamwork with other riders providing ample warning of any patches on the road.

It would have made for a nicer ride had an alternative route been used as its no fun going slowly or walking due to the conditions, but it was nowhere near as unsafe as many are claiming.

Road Red

Some people may be proficient enough to ride over ice. I reckon the vast majority of cyclists are not. I came accross two people who retired with injuries after falls and know that may more fell.

There were many patches of road that were unsafe to cycle on. By any definition there were stretches of the road that would be deemed unsafe for cycling. The police has closed one section of the road to cars!

The event should not have been held over those roads.

ugo.santalucia

A few more events run so irresponsibly and you'll see what happens of the all Sportive scene in the UK...

Game over that is

jdci

Yesterday morning driving to Biggin Hill it would not have taken a genius to work out that the road would have patches of ice on it and so I find it rather bizarre that there is so many people criticising the fact that the event occurred. It was a sportif virgin (until yesterday afternoon) and I loved it. My compliants are associated to my lack of preparation for the monster hills, but that (like riding in somewhat icy conditions) was something I can blame on noone else. Looking forward to next year. And thanks Catford for staging a great event.

phreak

Ugo, you didn't even do the event. Chill out. Your concern for me and others that did it is touching but really not necessary.

ugo.santalucia

phreak wrote:

Ugo, you didn't even do the event. Chill out. Your concern for me and others that did it is touching but really not necessary.

Yes, but as a club we do organise one event and if we have to fill ten times the paperwork or reduce to a third the number of entrants because of these idiots, maybe we do have a case, what do you think?

stonehouse

Hum, I was out on part of the course yesterday, there were plenty of icy patches at the side of the road, but didn't see anything bad enough to make me go home. Perhaps it was worse elsewhere but generally being relatively high up we get it colder than further south.

Your mileage may vary and sorry to hear that a few folks got injured in the process.

GS Avanti postponed their event due to the snow a couple of weeks back, but I doubt that they would have not run yesterday.

rogsmer

jdci wrote:

It was a sportif virgin (until yesterday afternoon) and I loved it..... Looking forward to next year. And thanks Catford for staging a great event.

it was my first one too and it was so so fun.
does anyone know when the full results and photos are going to be published online?

Anonymous

I chose not to do it, 110k, early in the morning in January and through the lanes with plenty of ups and downs, not for me. Hats off to those who did it though, I just knew I wouldn't enjoy the event if I was worrying too much about the conditions, as cyclists | think we constantly judge road condition whilst riding, but the concentration required for this particular ride would have been tiring.

If you are happy to ride on the day after seeing for yourselves that the route had not changed and conditions as they were, then you take the chance, the responsibility is yours, you have the final word. If you did not agree with the route not being changed, then you should not have ridden, complained to the organisers and tried to get your money back.
Personally, I wouldn't want a bad injury, wiping out months of riding in warmer months to do an icy sportive. i did it last year and it was dodgy then, I'd rather go out on bigger roads on a Sunday morning with some mates, which is what I did.

Neil A

Nice Beastie Boys lyrics 8)

If you'd gone out on your own and fallen off would there be a blame shift onto the council for not gritting the road? It is Catford CC's fault if you fall off on one of their sportives?

If I'd fallen off and broken something I'd swear a lot and then say "C'est la vie" (once the ambulance had arrived and the morphone had kicked in). I'm not sure I'd blame anyone else in an event which nobody forced me to participate in.

TheStone

Neil, I take your point, but I think there's a slight difference between making a mistake
on a ride out on your own and organising a ride with 1000 people through those roads.

It's one of those days that if it hadn't been a sportive, I probably wouldn't have headed out.
I figured if they'd checked the course and had the alternative route that there'd be no
problems.

Some of you fly over ice like it's not there, but I was all over the place. After falling I walked
lots. It's not a skill I have and can't see myself practising much again.

As I said earlier, would only have taken a few route changes to make it whole lot better.

ugo.santalucia

Neil A wrote:

Nice Beastie Boys lyrics 8)

If you'd gone out on your own and fallen off would there be a blame shift onto the council for not gritting the road? It is Catford CC's fault if you fall off on one of their sportives?

If I'd fallen off and broken something I'd swear a lot and then say "C'est la vie" (once the ambulance had arrived and the morphone had kicked in). I'm not sure I'd blame anyone else in an event which nobody forced me to participate in.

I don't think you get the point here... nobody cares about you falling, apart yourself... the point is another

One event run with this format geopardizes the all sportive movement. There are enough powers trying to stop these events from happening, we don't need any more, thank you.
If, as a movement, we show that we cannot run an event safely, there won't be no more events... do you think the ambulance service and the NHS are happy about these incidents? Do you think the Police won't take notice of a few hundred reckless cyclists riding an event which should have been cancelled?

It's 99% sure this event won't happen again, but what about the others? Those who try and do things properly and risk disappearing because of this band of cowboys?

THIS is the point and not your ability or inability to ride on thin ice...

phreak

band of cowboys

Very, very unfair.

ugo.santalucia

phreak wrote:

band of cowboys

Very, very unfair.

We have to be honest... good intentions are just not enough. I understand after all the work to put together a ride, you don't want to cancel it and disappoint everyone, but there are other ways. Most people say the main roads were fine, so why not going for a plan B? If you organise a ride in January you must have a plan B. The plan B was not implemented. The injuries speak for themselves. They've screwed it, there is no other way of putting it.

There is enough pressure to apply UCI road racing type regulations to sportives, limiting the numbers and increasing paperwork... this reckless attitude will inevitably give voice to such arguments

Is it what you want? A handful of heavily regulated sportives on closed roads-small circuits with 1-200 entrants max?

phreak

I'm sure in hindsight they realise this, I just think we need to keep some perspective and not go off at the deep end. I have enough nannying at work with health and safety this, that and the other. :roll:

st199ml

I normally steer well and truly clear of anything in these forums but I've got to add a positive view here.

I did the Hell yesterday. I didn't fall, nor did my riding buddy. We saw two falls total. One a slight pratfall in a guy walking across an ice patch. A marshall was present and provided clear warnings. Guy got straight up and carried on.

The other was a nastier spill when a guy hit a pothole in the middle of the road. A guy in the bunch with him went down too. This was on a full on two lane B road. No snow or ice involved.

I didn't get lost or stuck as turns had clear signage and/or marshalls. Not one person that I met complained about the course. Their fitness maybe, but not the course. It was in my opinion an excellent day out on the bike.

So @ugo.santalucia, while I understand your frustration at the problems you have clearly faced in organising an event, you weren't there. Please do not confuse your opinion with fact. The organisers are not cowboys, and you are not being honest to say so.

Neil A

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It's 99% sure this event won't happen again, but what about the others? Those who try and do things properly and risk disappearing because of this band of cowboys?

Well we'll see. The 2009 event sold out in, feel free to correct me, less than a week. It's historically massively over-subscribed so CCC must be doing something right. If you don't want to do it next year I'm sure someone will take your place and probably moan less. As for this event jeapordising sportives as a whole I think you're extrapolating your views a little too far.

As for injuries and over-stretched emergency services - St John's ambulance are happy to attend far more reckless sporting event that a few guys riding their bikes on the road. As for the NHS 'being happy' about these incidents I'm sure most A&E docs and nurses would far rather treat a law-obiding cyclist who was participating in a riding event than some drunk pikey on a Friday night who had too much Stella. I needn't point out which of these 2 grouups of people who represent the greater strain on the emergency services.

Mad One

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The injuries speak for themselves.

What injuries?

I rode it - my choice. No one made me do it!
The roads were very dodgy & because of that I was very careful. I got around the whole 110km's without falling once, but I did do a lot of walking because thats what the conditions called for!

If there were a prize for best time, that may have been different - but the challenge as I understood it was to complete the course? Yesterday you had to complete the course very carefully.

ugo.santalucia

You only need one accident that makes the headlines and someone will start asking questions...
Why the event was not cancelled if it was obvious there was ice etc. etc.... this will cast a shadow over all the other events and in the end it will be game over for most.
Why do you think many sportives are disappearing? It's not because of lack of demand, infact they're all oversubscribed... it's because it's getting a nightmare to organise them! You only need one accident to make the headlines for the wrong reasons and it's all over...

But keep being macho, with the " I am responsible for myself" line, it's the right attitude...

FransJacques

For all the above reasons is why I ride jokey sportives like this one pirate and don't pay.

With the bad judgement of the organizers - one guy for sure broke his arm in a fall - why do they deserve a penny let alond £20 from any of us? Did paying £20 result in better route management? Did it get that rider ride to the nearest hospital to be seen to?

With 13 years of sportive riding under my belt, I figure that most are a cash grab for the organizer. One of the worst is the Highclere. How much is that entry and how bad were the feed stops?

It shows one that humans' egos are fed by a bunch of ranked numbers and names on Excel. That's the only difference between downloading the route from bikely and doing it on a sunny June afternoon and this debacle.

just training to get fit

I have done a few years of Sportives, all weathers, some icy.

The "Sportive on Ice" was dumb not because it took place but because the organisers did nothing to warn riders that there were some 20+ sections of the road which were solid (not slushy) sheet ice more than 5 metres long covering the entire road surface due to little streams running across the road that had frozen solid. In places an ice rink (which at least is flat) would have had better traction. Then anyone who choose to ride would know that it would be "Sportive on Ice" not road cycling.

I may be unusual but the "Sportive on Ice" is not the highlight of the season. I am training for the Etape and some other longer endurance rides/ races. Breaking an arm (or worse) and/ or walking every 5 minutes doesn't count as useful preparation (for me at least).

So I did 45km ish to the first feeding station, very slowly on ice, got off 10 times, fell once with a cleat out. Then I jacked the ride and went solo. I then rode some 90km more on decent roads and hills in Sussex/ Surrey with almost no ice.

We are (mainly) experienced riders who can make our own choices. However organisers have a duty of care, and of ORGANISATION, why else would we pay the money when we are using open, public roads?

Maybe next year "Dancing on Ice" should be on road bikes in Kent?

SBezza

Oh for goodness sake ugo, leave it be, if it was the old reliability trial it would still have gone ahead, so why should it change for a sportive. If you feel the conditions are too bad, then don't ride, no-one is forcing anyone to ride an event in Jan FFS. Surely you would think on entering the weather could be crap and you might not turn up.

I didn't do the HOTA this year, but I did it in freezing weather and snow last year. I wouldn't have blamed the CCC for any accident. I actually was out around Kent on Sunday on my own, and I came across 20ft patches of ice, and never fell off, and I don't moan to the KCC for not gritting country lanes.

With all the rain and snow we have had recently followed by freezing temps, surely you as a normal person would realise there could be alot of ice on the road, for christ sake some of the snow is still around in secluded shaded spots in the countryside.

More people probably have accidents on the summer sportive, by going downhill too fast for the road and the riders skill, should these be cancelled as well.

Our small sportive last year, had a pretty bad accident, nothing to do with the weather or roads, just the skill of riders riding in bunches, should you stop bunch riding as well. If people rode sportives as NON COMPETITIVE, then half the problems wouldn't exist.

FransJacques

None of what you say is incorrect Bezza EXCEPT for the fact that there was bad judgement on whether to run their plan B course. If the Plan B course was to take account of ICE and as the Commentateur said from his knowledge of those routes, that the Plan B course was less icy, then that's the big eff up. You don't have to ride completitively to fall down. You just need an unseen hazard.

Ugo, I don't think sportives are disappearing at all. In fact there are too many run by peeps who've never left the UK and have no frigging clue what they're doing. Like the moonscape patch about 3kms before the end of the HHH with a helpful sign saying "Beware - Cyclists" 20 meters before it. 4 riders in my group of 6 flatted. Was bizarre.

SBezza

Was there in fact a Plan B for certain, it takes alot of effort putting up signs etc, do you think they can change this very quickly an hour before the start, or would you like to wait around for a couple of hours whilst new signs are put up on the different route.

I am not saying that with ice you have to ride fast to fall off, but I would imagine on a summer sportive, more people have accidents due to riding competitively than had accidents at the weekend.

Alot of effort goes into running a sportive, I am finding this out organising my club one, which is for a very small number of 250, this is still a large number of people to organise. I bet the CCC did deliberate on whether to re-route or even cancel, but I bet there would have been more bad comments if they had cancelled. Also alot of people would have moaned about the busier A roads, and these are not always suitable for mass bunch riding as what happens on a sportive.

ugo.santalucia

FransJacques wrote:

None of what you say is incorrect Bezza EXCEPT for the fact that there was bad judgement on whether to run their plan B course. If the Plan B course was to take account of ICE and as the Commentateur said from his knowledge of those routes, that the Plan B course was less icy, then that's the big eff up. You don't have to ride completitively to fall down. You just need an unseen hazard.

Ugo, I don't think sportives are disappearing at all. In fact there are too many run by peeps who've never left the UK and have no frigging clue what they're doing. Like the moonscape patch about 3kms before the end of the HHH with a helpful sign saying "Beware - Cyclists" 20 meters before it. 4 riders in my group of 6 flatted. Was bizarre.

Just a few examples which come to my mind: Polka Dot and Spud Riley used to be two separate events, now only one. Circuit of the Cotswolds not happening in 2010, Autumn Epic the organiser pulled out and it's still not known whether it will happen again.
I am talking about very successful and well run events, disappearing, with a reputation for excellenence... not rogues or cowboys! Disappearing because the amount of paperwork and the costs involved in insuring the events are soaring.

There is a lot of support for cycling as a commuting exercise, to relieve pressure on public transport and for governing bodies to look green, but weekend and recreational cycling is not seen so favourably. Mismanaged events like this one, only add up to the increasing opposition towards sportives. One day, and that day is not far, they'll be classified in the same league as road races and they'll have to be restricted to closed circuits and small numbers. This is pretty much inevitable, unless the all movement keeps an immaculate image... but this is not happening

bikergirl17

likely enough weighing in here but surprised at venom towards nay sayers here (am another who skipped it due to weather) ... On exmoor beast this year in which weather was ghastly (talking 60+ mph head winds and sleet) the organizers did cancel the 100 miler (initially a very unpopular decision) and delayed the start by several hours til safer.

It seems like at least the start could have been delayed til temperature above freezing or ice salted. I realize as a rider we make ultimate decision to participate but when there are options (delayed start, using alternative route posted on web site for weeks) shouldn't there be some expectation that they are considered?