Men's Road Race *SPOILER*

teagar

afx237vi wrote:

He could have finished higher if he had a decent DS in his ear telling him what to do. Some of the pointless attacking in the Worlds would have looked amateurish in the U23 race.

Hoogerland, Rujano, I'm looking in your direction...

I doubt it's the DS. Seems to know what he's doing whenever I've seen him on Dutch telly.

RichN95.

afx237vi wrote:

Hoogerland, Rujano, I'm looking in your direction...

Rujano may have been trying to remind everyone that he's still riding and riding well, if not sensibly, to try and get back on a big time team.

afx237vi

teagar wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

He could have finished higher if he had a decent DS in his ear telling him what to do. Some of the pointless attacking in the Worlds would have looked amateurish in the U23 race.

Hoogerland, Rujano, I'm looking in your direction...

I doubt it's the DS. Seems to know what he's doing whenever I've seen him on Dutch telly.

Yeah, on second thoughts, it can't be the DS because he was doing the same thing in the Vuelta. Maybe he just gets excited about being on TV. He's like Thomas Voeckler's long-lost Dutch brother.

afx237vi

RichN95 wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Hoogerland, Rujano, I'm looking in your direction...

Rujano may have been trying to remind everyone that he's still riding and riding well, if not sensibly, to try and get back on a big time team.

Maybe. I was surprised to see him there in the break, and he was looking quite strong. Looking at his results this year, they're really quite good... he won the Vuelta a Colombia and the Vuelta a Venezuela.

He's still only 28, after all.

Le Commentateur

Hoogerland was putting himself in the shop window with his attacks.

takethehighroad

afx237vi wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Hoogerland, Rujano, I'm looking in your direction...

Rujano may have been trying to remind everyone that he's still riding and riding well, if not sensibly, to try and get back on a big time team.

Maybe. I was surprised to see him there in the break, and he was looking quite strong. Looking at his results this year, they're really quite good... he won the Vuelta a Colombia and the Vuelta a Venezuela.

He's still only 28, after all.

I believe in the original silver fox when he says that old Jose was distracted by his agent. I mean the guy's gonna get a hefty fee for contracts at Quick Step and Caisse, so this year Rujano's on a small team and winning almost as regularly as Cav. Maybe not as big but still...

Pross

There are definately courses that suit a bunch sprint and others that don't - if these courses are annual races (such as Paris - Tours) then I guess you could call them sprinters races. The Worlds in itself can't be called a sprinters race as it moves every year to a variety of courses (I seem to recall one in Columbia at really high altitude but could be wrong?) but it is possible for the course to be a sprinters course. Doesn't mean it will always be won by a sprinter but if you ran a race on the same course every year then the majority would end in a bunch sprint, as most worlds courses are one offs we can never determine this. Another factor at the worlds is that the length can grind people down and the teams don't have the same experience of working together to set up a bunch sprint as they do in their pro teams and therefore breaks don't get pulled back etc.

Ultimately who cares and who wants pigeon holed predictable stages? One of my favourite tour "mountain" stages was won by Eros Poli, one of the biggest riders I've ever seen in the pro peleton.

frenchfighter

Le Commentateur wrote:

Hoogerland was putting himself in the shop window with his attacks.

Which is exactly what I was saying Russell should have had the opportunity to do. How much better is Hoogerland than Russell if at ll, yet he still places 14th?

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

Le Commentateur wrote:

Hoogerland was putting himself in the shop window with his attacks.

Which is exactly what I was saying Russell should have had the opportunity to do. How much better is Hoogerland than Russell if at ll, yet he still places 14th?

Probably quite a lot better.

Kléber

Hoogerland was strong in the Vuelta, Downing in the Tour of Ireland. Spot the difference!

Winning in Ireland was nice but the Tour of Britain is a bigger race and in recent years it has been won by Geoffroy Lequatre. Twice. Sometimes a rider just gets a break.

Indeed, the lesson is that if Downing wanted to perform he should have ridden the Spanish Tour first, and then we'd see. On paper, Hoogerland is a genuine revelation but I suspect Downing will be carrying water bottles.

frenchfighter

Hoogerland has been a pro for 7 years. He has done jack dorothy for the most part all his career until June onwards this year.

Kléber

A semi-pro.

He won the Driedaagse van West-Vlaanderen in March and was 12th in the Ronde in April.

I know you like Downing but the Brit's not shown the same results but that's not to say Downing can't do the same, for he's done "jack dorothy" too until Ireland.

frenchfighter

Take a look at Dowing's palmares and you will see different. We aren't talking about the top flight races in the World I know but then he doesn't even have the opportunity to perform in them as his team is not in the running. All I can say is that he does well consistently in the racs he enters, he is an exciting/attacking rider, has style and I would have liked to see him put in a couple of digs whether they held or not.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Take a look at Dowing's palmares and you will see different. We aren't talking about the top flight races in the World I know but then he doesn't even have the opportunity to perform in them as his team is not in the running. All I can say is that he does well consistently in the racs he enters, he is an exciting/attacking rider, has style and I would have liked to see him put in a couple of digs whether they held or not.

Other than the Worlds he's never done a major European race as far as I can see.

Michael Chopra's scoring loads of goals in the Championship at the moment, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near the England squad.

frenchfighter

Did I not say in my post that I know the races are not World class but that is because his team are not in those races so it is impossible to have him in those races.

Kléber

Sure FF.

But what if we put some mid-ranking rider like Bram Tankink, Sebastien Hinault, Mikael Delage or Kjell Carlstrom into the same calendar of events as Downing? I suspect they'd probably get similar results and have the freedom to ride with an attacking style.

stagehopper

frenchfighter wrote:

Le Commentateur wrote:

Hoogerland was putting himself in the shop window with his attacks.

Which is exactly what I was saying Russell should have had the opportunity to do. How much better is Hoogerland than Russell if at ll, yet he still places 14th?

Why would Russell want to put himself in the shop window when he's just agreed a contract with Team Sky for next year? His shop window was the Tour of Ireland which he poured everything into and magnificently took.

The whole point of the World's "exercise" for the British team was to get a group of riders to buy into the concept of team>individual, work on that ethos for the years to come when they might have riders a) capable of winning b) on courses suited to them. Neither applied this year with the best hope of getting Millar into the top 15, which crashes/mechanicals prevented any chance of. It wasn't an imposed set of team decisions, but one decided amongst the riders.

frenchfighter

Well we never know.

I don't understand why you are going at me for thinking/hoping that he could have put in a few digs on the climbs in the Worlds, even futile ones. I'm not saying he is World Class and don't think he is, although he certainly is a good rider.

redddraggon

Isn't the Worlds a sprinter's race FF? Is Downing is a Sprinter?

FJS

Hoogerland is a climber who has been trapped in semi-pro teams in the low countries with a mostly kermesse program. Most of his results have been in the rare occasions they went somewhere with mountains.

Downing has also been in these national/semi-pro teams with a limited program, but in contrast to Hoogerland he has been able to ride the kind of races he is good in: hilly with small group sprint finishes.

Downing is 31 years old, Hoogerland 26

jerry3571

Thanks for the last 7-8 pages of this; I quite enjoyed it.
I think the classification of a rider is not one thing or another. I think a rider such as a Rouler is good for a typical Worlds course. A typical Sprinter can't go up hills at all but no rider is a typical rider. There are some Sprinters that can do short climbs (Boonen, Zabel, Freire), long climbs (Jalabert, Kelly, Merckx) some do Cobbles (Zabel, Boonen) and some just sprint (Quaranta, Cipo). This also expands into climbing, (short climbs or long climbs), Time Trialing and Cobbles. A riders is a blend of all; look at the stats of riders on the Procycling Manager game which has stamina, recovery, resilience etc... etc...

Little point; I think Canellara is not a top sprinter (but his sprint is well above the average rider) but much more like Ekimov; a good Time Trialist who can get away in the last few Kilometres if the pace drops (I think Cancellara has lost a bit of weight which helped him on Sunday).

As well as most riders not being exactly one thing or another (a bit of this and that), the one day races are ridden differently to Tour stages. The aim is to win as there is only one chance. A Tour has the effect of repeated efforts over 3 weeks so most riders have to dose their efforts. Also, a lot of riders are holding out as they may be targetting other stages or riding for GC or even carrying water bottles. The one day races are rode where all the favourites are there to do business on that day and so usually the tradtional sprinters (except MSR, PT and GW) are laid to waiste as the specialists dominate.I don't think it is possible to put too many labels on races as the results depend on how hard they are ridden. The 2009 Worlds course, if used in the Tour de France ,would have had a lucky breakaway and maybe a winner from that, otherwise a dash for the line by the bunch. The GC riders would want to wait for the Mountains and Time Trials to do their thing and not figure.

A race course can be many things depending on the situation at that time. Sprinters tend to be there at the finish if the pace is not too hard or if the terrain allows which allows them to win the flatter classics. I could understand if someone wanted to call MSR, GW or PT a Sprinter's Classic as Sprinters usually win there. :?

I may have completly contridicted myself here as it is a tricky one. :?

Ps- Anyone know how Ghent- Bubblegum works as the sprinters usually finish in a small group at the end after riding the bunch off their wheels. This race baffles me as Sprinters can't usually do this. :?
-Jerry

frenchfighter

You make some good points there.

frenchfighter

Sirotti

takethehighroad

Eeeeeeh, Franco. I donno what a-happen. Damiano, he do a-rubbish, he no follow the wheels.

Eh, Princey, get me some a-spaghetti

frenchfighter

2010 definitely for the sprinters. McEwen, Davis and O'Grady are up for it. Petacchi says he is gunning for it. Bennati will ride. Friere is going for the record four World wins. Hushovd is aiming for it. Boonen is riding. Farrar will lead the US. And Cavendish will win to become the second British World Champion.

teagar

frenchfighter wrote:

And Cavendish will win to become the second British World Champion.

Only if he has a team that can control it in the final.

moray_gub

teagar wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

And Cavendish will win to become the second British World Champion.

Only if he has a team that can control it in the final.

Tough task that one.

Kléber

Many teams will want a sprint finish, several sprinters are making noises about going to Geelong already. Unlike Columbia team and its pick of national TT champions and other rouleurs, many won't look to the British team alone to shut the race down because they won't be able to do this as effectively.

takethehighroad

I don't know why people think that Cav needs a lead out train to win.

It certainly helps, but he still accelerates away from everyone when he goes for the line.

The only trouble he'll have in Geelong is if the finish is on a small rise, 'cos I think Roger Hammond will still be good enough to lead him out by the ned of next year, and hopefully Cav's kick will have improved again. I can't blinkin wait!

FJS

Agreed, most teams will make their sprinters team leaders. Still, it makes a difference if your sprinter is Freire, Hushovd or Bennatti, or whether it's Cavendish, Greipel or Farrar. The Spanish for instance will make their best climbers sprint up those hills every single time to make the race as selective as possible to have a sprint where their man can win.