Men's Road Race *SPOILER*
Comments
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Just goes to show how blind devotion to a rider can lead one to spout all kinds of crap. This was a defensive mode put up by FF becuase his man was not riding the worlds. Rather than just accept that he proceeded to demean the Worlds by calling it a non prestigious sprinters race and he has followed that by digging a huge huge hole for himself. Proof positive that having a high post goes for nothing when it comes to having a scooby doo.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0
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FF, everyone's just trying to educate you into the ways of pro cycling. So many free lessons!0
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rockmount wrote:
Precisely . . . Google is no substitute for knowledge !Kléber wrote:FF, everyone's just trying to educate you into the ways of pro cycling. So many free lessons!
Oooh he's going to come out swinging after those."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Oooh he's going to come out swinging after those.
No he won't. FF is like LA - he keeps a little blacklist of people who he ignores. That list is growing by the day. Pretty soon we'll all be on it. Who will he argue with then?0 -
Kimmage?0
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hi guys,
I'm an admitted "cavendish-come-lately" to the world of pro racing, and have lurked here for a long while assimilating knowledge (i do post on commuting section occasionally).
this discussion leads me to ask whether a "sprinters race" is defined pre or post race.
For instance, some pre labelled sprinter's stages are not won by sprinters because a breakaway stays away - all sorts of reasons why the sprinters teams may not have closed it down.
Cav won MSR because there was no definitive breakaway, and once the peleton arrived intact, then it was going to end in a bunch sprint. But do people generally regard MSR as a sprinters race, or did it just conspire that way because no-one raced it right tactically?
interested in your replies......0 -
A pure sprinters' race in one like Paris-Tours, with near pan-flat course. It doesn't mean that a sprinter always wins, it just means the course is predominantly suited to a sprinter. Just as a mountain stage in the Tour de France should be for climbers but sometimes a big rider can stay away all day and win.
Milan - San Remo's favoured some sprinters but only the very classy ones who can survive the attacks on the Cipressa and Poggio.
But labels such as "sprinters' race" are vague concepts, they can suggets a particular type of winner but the good thing about bike racing is that it can be very open, the result is hard to predict. Unless the road is flat and Cavendish is racing!0 -
Welcome PBo. I think your tactic of lurking for a while is a good one. All too often people wade in thinking they know the answers, and it's nice to see some humility from yourself.
In my opinion, there's no such thing as a sprinters race, a climbers race, an all rounders race, I just think that certain races suit certain riders and so are classed as that, but any rider can win any race. I don't know how extensive your knowledge of cycling history is, but if you've been here since March it shouldn't be too bad, but you only have to think about Eros Poli winning a stage that went over the Ventoux in 94 to know that a stage seen as for the climbers isn't necessarily won by a climber.
In the case of MSR, it is regarded as a sprinters race, as it is generally flat and historically (in the last 30 years or so) has been won by sprinters on more occasions than not. However, you only have to look at the last four editions to see it's not a strict rule to follow.
2009 - Sprint win for Cav
2008 - Breakaway for Cancellara
2007 - Sprint win for Freire
2006 - Breakaway for Pozzatto
Also, who would have predicted a non-climber like Ivanov winning Amstel Gold this year? It just goes to show that you can't pigeon hole a race into a certain category and say "This type of rider will win this race." Often this is the case, for example sprinters are likely to dominate the first week of a Grand Tour, but it's far from an exact science.
I hope that cleared some things up for you, don't be afraid to ask away. There's some people on here much more knowledagable than me (and with better spelling!)0 -
Kléber wrote:FF, everyone's just trying to educate you into the ways of pro cycling. So many free lessons!
Thanks but I got my education from one of the best universities in the World - I'm not here to get 'educated' especially by dubious characters, more to seek information, comment and debate in the sport I love and participate in.
Again I repeat that I do not know why there is such a fuss over what I consider a particular race to be. Why do members care so much as to counter my opinion. It is only that, an opinion, not fact and it isn't going to affect your enjoyment of the sport. Pretty sad really.
Of late you have made some comments that I haven't particularly liked, I'm not sure why. From what I orignally saw you always spoke sense and didn't make the type of comments I would expect of other members.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Kléber wrote:FF, everyone's just trying to educate you into the ways of pro cycling. So many free lessons!
Thanks but I got my education from one of the best universities in the World
Which one was that then?0 -
But you didn't do a course in pro cycling
I think it's just you post some controversial points which many might take an opposing view, then you come back into the debate and it goes to and fro.
But the whole point of a forum is debate and comment. It would be a dull place if someone started a new topic and then the only replies were "+1" 0 -
Kléber wrote:A pure sprinters' race in one like Paris-Tours, with near pan-flat course.
Milan - San Remo's favoured some sprinters but only the very classy ones who can survive the attacks on the Cipressa and Poggio.
AFX thinks differently to you about Paris-Tour - are members going to rip into him for 10 pages. No, they shouldn't as everyone is entitled to an opinion however different from ours it may appear. There is no right or wrong.
But what is a classy sprinter and why are they only allowed to win MSR. Zabel is the least classy sprinter I can think of, but then what is class. See how we can turn any comment into a counter when it needn't be.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Kléber wrote:But the whole point of a forum is debate and comment. It would be a dull place if someone started a new topic and then the only replies were "+1"
Well I guess the least you can say is that I provide debate, heated or otherwise as I am not a comformist and am not afraid to hold opposing views. But I am not stubborn either and will change my opinion if facts or a convining opinion is presented.Contador is the Greatest0 -
TakeTheHighRoad wrote:However, you only have to look at the last four editions to see it's not a strict rule to follow.
2009 - Sprint win for Cav
2008 - Breakaway for Cancellara
2007 - Sprint win for Freire
2006 - Breakaway for Pozzatto
An example of selective data usage. First rule of statistics, the larger the sample size the more valid the data.
Have a look at the 6 editions before those above and then a clear sprinters pattern emerges.Contador is the Greatest0 -
I think some of you dislike me as I have some superb avatars and change them frequently I am happy to provide some as necessary. Contador is the Greatest0
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frenchfighter wrote:I think some of you dislike me as I have some superb avatars and change them frequently I am happy to provide some as necessary.
I don't dislike you, I enjoy butting heads with you. You remind me of a young me. Even if I disagree with a lot of your opinions, I respect taht they are strongly held and rooted in an enjoyment of the sport."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
To be honest I didn't think I needed to mention about the selective data, it was pretty obvious they were selcted to support my point.
The reason people won't "rip into" afx on this point and others in general is that his point was an aside to a comment he made, whereas your points tend to be the crux of any comment you make eg. The Worlds is a sprinters race0 -
So how do we catagorise stage races?
if we are generalising and trying to pidgeon hole, the "classics", I would have to nominate this race, as being predominantly a sprinter's race.
http://www.letour.fr/2009/TDF/LIVE/us/le_parcours.html
Check it out. 10 of the stages are officially described as flat and only 7, mountainous.
After all, come March, the "climbers" will probably congregate at Paris-Nice and the "sprinters", at Tirreno-Adriatico."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:
An example of selective data usage. First rule of statistics, the larger the sample size the more valid the data.
Right you are.
Winners of the Worlds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Road_W ... _Road_Race
Sprinters race?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:
An example of selective data usage. First rule of statistics, the larger the sample size the more valid the data.
Right you are.
Winners of the Worlds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Road_W ... _Road_Race
Sprinters race?
That, my friends, is the sound of a bluff being called."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
iainf72 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:9 out of the last 10 were won by sprinters.
Lets get back on topic.
Since Madrid the Worlds haven't been won by a "sprinter" - Agreed? They've been tough, selective courses which tended to favour a rouler / hilly classics man, agreed?
And funnily enough the last women's world road race which was won by a "sprinter" was in 2005. In Madrid. Weird that.0 -
The point with the Worlds is that it changes course so it's never a race for a particular category. But look at the list of winners and we see Boonen and Freire there in recent years, and Cipollini too. But Freire is more versatile, Boonen too. And then go back in time and you have to wind back to 1981 to see a sprinter, Freddy Maertens, win.
Given the small number of sprinters winning I would say on average it's not a sprinter's race but that does not mean some occasions the race is tailored to suit them.0 -
Kléber wrote:The point with the Worlds is that it changes course so it's never a race for a particular category. But look at the list of winners and we see Boonen and Freire there in recent years, and Cipollini too. But Freire is more versatile, Boonen too. And then go back in time and you have to wind back to 1981 to see a sprinter, Freddy Maertens, win.
Given the small number of sprinters winning I would say on average it's not a sprinter's race but that does not mean some occasions the race is tailored to suit them.
A look at who came second and third also is revealing in determining if it was a sprinter's race.
Boonen won - but Valverde came second in 2005 for instance. 2002 looks like a pure sprinter's contest though.0 -
Pokerface wrote:Kléber wrote:The point with the Worlds is that it changes course so it's never a race for a particular category. But look at the list of winners and we see Boonen and Freire there in recent years, and Cipollini too. But Freire is more versatile, Boonen too. And then go back in time and you have to wind back to 1981 to see a sprinter, Freddy Maertens, win.
Given the small number of sprinters winning I would say on average it's not a sprinter's race but that does not mean some occasions the race is tailored to suit them.
A look at who came second and third also is revealing in determining if it was a sprinter's race.
Boonen won - but Valverde came second in 2005 for instance. 2002 looks like a pure sprinter's contest though.
For sure... It was a pretty dull race, run on a motorracing circuit. A flat one. The last couple of laps were incredible though with the fighting between the teams for the front, Australia working for McEwen, Spain for Friere and Italy for Cipo."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
I think that having a sprinters world champs on a flat course every so often is a good thing, it means that for the next year you get to see the jersey in different races.
That's why this years course was so good after last year. We go from (if he wasn't ill) seeing the jersey on the cobbles to now seeing it going up mountains.
And then probably the year after that at the front of bunch sprints. I've seen the course and it's very similar to Madrid. OK so there's a couple of climbs, but chirst, I could get up those!
http://www.melbourne2010.com.au/site/_content/document/00000007-source.pdf0 -
That's definitely harder than Zolder. Two short but pretty steep climbs, both 10% average. Steeper than the Poggio; more Flanders-like, without the cobbles.TakeTheHighRoad wrote:0 -
Anyone notice Hoogerland's performance in this Worlds?! He came 14th leading in Basso and Freire!
13 Chris Sörensen (Denmark) 0:01:59
14 Johnny Hoogerland (Netherlands) 0:02:02
15 Oscar Freire Gomez (Spain)
16 Ivan Basso (Italy)
17 Andre Fernando S. Martins Cardoso (Portugal) 0:02:44
18 Michael Barry (Canada)
19 Serguei Ivanov (Russian Federation)Contador is the Greatest0 -
He could have finished higher if he had a decent DS in his ear telling him what to do. Some of the pointless attacking in the Worlds would have looked amateurish in the U23 race.
Hoogerland, Rujano, I'm looking in your direction...0
