And the hits just keep on coming! 3 more riders positive

afx237vi

frenchfighter wrote:

This is the 2nd time you have mentioned the Spanish getting clear. Can you provide concrete examples of all the key people in Puerto, their nationalities and the outcomes.

I repeat that it was the Spanish who first brought Puerto to light, so why would they have done this if, given what you think, they are going to behave improperly subsequently?

The Spanish police - the Guardia Civil - were the ones who started OP, not the Spanish cycling federation. The Guardia Civil obviously has no power to impose sporting sanctions. Their role ended once they arrested Saiz with a briefcase full of cash.

frenchfighter

DG, given it seems to be troubling you let me give you a sentance.

If Valverde was now to come out and say he is guilty then I would dislike him intensely as then he would have played a merry game - my judgement is not compromised by this either as I have already said that IMO: after yes, have at them; before no.

Every case is different - I do not live in a robotic World where I tick boxes, sum them and decide how much I like a rider based on the score.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

If the proof was insurmountable can you please explain why he hasn't been banned everywhere? Surely if there was proof beyond doubt he shouldn't be riding?

Are you really that obstinate that you need to ask that question?

The only reason he hasn't been banned everywhere is because of procedural red tape as you clearly aware. Give it time, the ban will come. The case is hung up in the courts.

I think "ff" needs to put himself into some of these riders shoes and find out what it means to possibly lose your livelyhood for a couple of years. Then have him tell you that HE wouldn't use every possible avenue of defence. Even if "ff" was found guilty of doping and the "proof was insurmountable" and "beyond doubt" I'm betting he wouldn't just lie down and give up his livelyhood. Red tape??? Whatever it takes. Worst of all is the argument by forum members that he should have known better or that he knew the rules. The world is full of people(many in prison), who knew the rules or knew better, yet
they still deny and try to prove their innocence. And a few of them may actually be innocent. I don't understand why "ff" doesn't think they(and himself) would fight for their jobs, and use whatever means are available to keep them.

frenchfighter

Still waiting on the list of proof for Contador and Lance.

Garry H

frenchfighter wrote:

Still waiting on the list of proof for Contador and Lance.

You're clutching at straws dude, give it up.

iainf72

No Spanish athletes have served any kind of ban resulting from Puerto AFAIK.

There was no "crime" in Spain for this kind of thing at the times so the judge effectively closed the case. There was an appeal so it was looked at again. But as part of this, all of the "evidence" effectively belongs to Fuentes and the judge said it can't be used for doping sanctions while the criminal case was pending.

The Italians and Swiss have laws about doping so they used the legal system to get access to the blood in Spain - It wasn't a sporting body requesting access but rather a legal entity.

Hence Ullrich and Basso's blood being confirmed via DNA testing.

There have been persistant rumous of big name Spanish athletes being on the list and it being kept quiet. Le Monde reported on the Real and Barca football teams being involved. Fuentes does seem to have contacts with the Spanish olympic committee and gave a presentation to one of their conferences last year.

andyp

Iain - I believe Fuentes himself said he'd worked with Spanish football clubs.

I also think Le Monde were successfully sued for libel by Real and Barca for them publishing the article that alleged their involvement with Fuentes.

iainf72

Yes I seem to remember Fuentes said he had been threatened and feared for his families safety.

A number of his clients have tested positive before and after the case. Heras, Hamilton and Santiago perez spring to mind. And the fellows in Portugal. And Fuentes was rumoured to have cera in 06

blazing_saddles

andyp wrote:

Iain - I believe Fuentes himself said he'd worked with Spanish football clubs.
I also think Le Monde were successfully sued for libel by Real and Barca for them publishing the article that alleged their involvement with Fuentes.

As I said earlier. the Spanish cyclists caught a break, because of who else were linked to Puerto.

Interesting see who were banned as a result of OP and who have also tested positive.
Allan Davis :Australian cleared
* Joseba Beloki
* David Etxebarría
* Isidro Nozal: P Test
* Unai Osa
* Sérgio Paulinho
* Michele Scarponi:Italian ban
* Marcos Serrano
* Ángel Vicioso
(all Iberian)

Comunidad Valenciana
* Vicente Ballester
* David Bernabeu
* David Blanco
* José Adrián Bonilla
* Juan Gomis
* Eladio Jiménez
* David Latasa
* Javier Pascual Rodríguez
* Rubén Plaza
(all Iberian)

Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears
* Constantino Zaballa
* Alejandro Valverde

Team CSC
* Ivan Basso Italian Ban

Phonak Hearing Systems
* José Ignacio Gutiérrez
* José Enrique Gutiérrez

Saunier Duval-Prodir
* Carlos Zárate
* Koldo Gil

T-Mobile Team
* Óscar Sevilla - codename Sevillano.
* Jan Ullrich German Ban

Tinkoff Credit Systems
* Tyler Hamilton: 2 P Tests
* Jörg Jaksche: German Ban

Unibet
* Carlos García Quesada

Retired:
* Michele Bartoli
* Santiago Botero
* Ángel Casero
* Roberto Heras:P Test
* Santiago Pérez:P Test
* Francisco Mancebo: Now unretired
* Marco Pantani (deceased)

Allan Davies manages to be the odd man out. The only non-Spaniard to avoid a ban.
As Iain says, no crime under Spanish law, but that doesn't make them any less guily than Basso, Ullrich, Scarponi or Jaksche of breaking the rules.

If FF wants to argue these guys are innocent, then he does so, using a Spanish legal technicality.
The same excuse as Armstrong fans are able to dismiss his 1999 EPO samples.
Technically, neither is wrong, but the argument remains unconvincing in the extreme.

RichN95.

andyp wrote:

I also think Le Monde were successfully sued for libel by Real and Barca for them publishing the article that alleged their involvement with Fuentes.

If I remember correctly, it was in a Barcelona court and huge piles of evidence were ruled inadmissable.

frenchfighter

Blazing, don't say I said something when I didn't.

When did I say I am defending all the Spanish riders? Or all those riders who didn't cop a ban? My main issue is with Contador, yet there have been diversions from this due to other members.

Stop trying to divert the issue too. You have issues with Contador but refuse to show me anything of value. You think Contador is as 'guilty' as Lance, yet you refuse to put the 'proof' for both side by side. Please.

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

Blazing, don't say I said something when I didn't.
When did I say I am defending all the Spanish riders? Or all those riders who didn't cop a ban? My main issue is with Contador, yet there have been diversions from this due to other members.
Stop trying to divert the issue too.

frenchfighter wrote:

This is the 2nd time you have mentioned the Spanish getting clear. Can you provide concrete examples of all the key people in Puerto, their nationalities and the outcomes.

I repeat that it was the Spanish who first brought Puerto to light, so why would they have done this if, given what you think, they are going to behave improperly subsequently?

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were.
Iain and several other posters have clearly explained the Spanish authorities position.
The OP outcomes have now been posted.

iainf72

Talking Contador specifically, I don't believe it's possible to dismiss his links to Puerto.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 1114075069

There's nothing concrete but there's certainly enough that would make you wonder. When you get incredible performances and links to dubious doctors it takes a brave man to say there is no cause for concern.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Talking Contador specifically, I don't believe it's possible to dismiss his links to Puerto.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 1114075069

There's nothing concrete but there's certainly enough that would make you wonder. When you get incredible performances and links to dubious doctors it takes a brave man to say there is no cause for concern.

quite damning...this 4 time grand tour winner deserves much much more scrutiny...however fanboys like biking bernie/aurelio don't say much critical of AC

frenchfighter

One German's opinion holds little weight with me, although I would take it into consideration.

Now explain to me why Contador specifically would be covered up and not others when he wasn't the highest profile guy?

Furthermore he has always been an incredible cyclist, all through his career, even to the extent that at 15 he was attacking off the front of the best young riders in Madrid riding an iron bike (yes iron). The guy is special and he didn't shoot to quality. Look at his early palmares - he was hurting guys consistently (are you going to tell me he was doping when he was 16/17 onwards?). Those that say otherwise are ignorant.

In addition, his performance post Puerto has been significantly better than pre Puerto - if he was on all these products before then would you please explain how this is possible?

Lightweight.

Monty Dog

I don't have as big a problem with Contador because anyone with associations with Saiz has to be taken with a degree of scepticism, plus he doesn't generate the same degree of rabid fervour from his fans, regardless of the evidence.

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

In addition, his performance post Puerto has been significantly better than pre Puerto - if he was on all these products before then would you please explain how this is possible?

Have they thought? He had his brain problem in 2004 - In 2005 he returned, won a stage of TdU, won Setmana Cataluna overall , high placings in Romandy and Tour de Suisse. In 06 he did very well at Romandy and TdS again and then didn't get to do the Tour.

He then joined Bruyneel, won some races and eventually took a TdF. He'd obviously been maturing as a rider as time went on. Some might argue his choice of team also boosted his performance.

Of course he's talented and was from a young age. So were Armstrong, Basso and Ullrich.

frenchfighter

Ok so my comments hold, cool.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

In addition, his performance post Puerto has been significantly better than pre Puerto - if he was on all these products before then would you please explain how this is possible?

Have they thought? He had his brain problem in 2004 - In 2005 he returned, won a stage of TdU, won Setmana Cataluna overall , high placings in Romandy and Tour de Suisse. In 06 he did very well at Romandy and TdS again and then didn't get to do the Tour.

He then joined Bruyneel, won some races and eventually took a TdF. He'd obviously been maturing as a rider as time went on. Some might argue his choice of team also boosted his performance.

Of course he's talented and was from a young age. So were Armstrong, Basso and Ullrich.

we can't credibly query one miracle rider cause he associates with JB and not query the other miracle rider. Too many AC fanboys like, like frenchfighter

frenchfighter

Don't ever put me in the same league as those Lance lovers. They are a completely different breed, totally deluded and irrational as well as abusive.

If for instance one of the riders had the amount of 'evidence' against them as Lance does I would not like them one bit.

Why don't you put the case against Contador yourself as no one seems able to do this properly? In addition why don't you look at the case against Lance and see that it is a million times worse.

deal

frenchfighter wrote:

at 15 he was attacking off the front of the best young riders in Madrid riding an iron bike (yes iron).

anyone else who would love to see this mythical iron bike?

dennisn

frenchfighter wrote:

Don't ever put me in the same league as those Lance lovers. They are a completely different breed, totally deluded and irrational as well as abusive.

If for instance one of the riders had the amount of 'evidence' against them as Lance does I would not like them one bit.

Why don't you put the case against Contador yourself as no one seems able to do this properly? In addition why don't you look at the case against Lance and see that it is a million times worse.

I would question the "million times" worse. Can you give us your references on these statistics?

takethehighroad

deal wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

at 15 he was attacking off the front of the best young riders in Madrid riding an iron bike (yes iron).

anyone else who would love to see this mythical iron bike?

I've heard this story, Cycle Sport put it into an article last year. HIs brothers invited him for a training ride with some of their mates who were top amateurs, as they say.

But they only had an iron bike that was a bit knackered really and he hung on the back for a while, then on the climb he stuck the boot in.

As for all the rest of this nonsense, the majority of it is circumstantial evidence that wouldn't (and hasn't) hold up in court. And I'm speaking about the lot of them here.

Now frenchfighter, (and I may be setting the tin opener on the worms here) I can't remember if you like Valv, or would if he is banned etc, but surely his blood in a bag is more 'evidence' than that which was weighed against Armstrong.

Personally? I like Valverde, Contador, and Basso, no wmatter what they might have done. Obviously I'd prefer if they hadn't, but what are you to do in this mental sport of ours?

takethehighroad

P.S. I don't like this witch hunting of frenchfighter, even if I've just pointed out a discrepancy myself.

frenchfighter

I will only reply to people I consider intelligent, sensible, mature and rational (for the most part). If you don't fit this then don't bother commenting as I wont even read what you write let alone reply to it.

TTHR. You are referring to one instance yet I refer to another which is actually a race and the information comes from Javier Fernandez, manager of Embajadores. Not sure why you are trying to rubbish it.

Seriously a lot of you are so negative it is pretty sad, always trying to pick holes where there aren't any.

dennisn

frenchfighter wrote:

I will only reply to people I consider intelligent, sensible, mature and rational (for the most part). If you don't fit this then don't bother commenting as I wont even read what you write let alone reply to it.

TTHR. You are referring to one instance yet I refer to another which is actually a race and the information comes from Javier Fernandez, manager of Embajadores. Not sure why you are trying to rubbish it.

Seriously a lot of you are so negative it is pretty sad, always trying to pick holes where there aren't any.

So, I guess that all of us can assume that you are THE CHOSEN ONE????
How do you get a helmet to fit a head that big???? :roll: :roll:
You're basically in over your head. Get out while you can. Remember, most of us are probably older than you and much more devious.

DaveyL

frenchfighter wrote:

I will only reply to people I consider intelligent, sensible, mature and rational (for the most part). If you don't fit this then don't bother commenting as I wont even read what you write let alone reply to it.

That's a handy device for avoiding difficult questions about your heroes!

takethehighroad

Right, that's me given up now, sorry. In a bit

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

Don't ever put me in the same league as those Lance lovers. They are a completely different breed, totally deluded and irrational as well as abusive

If someone wants to put you in with the Lance lovers then that would be prefectly justified you are someone refuses to listen to alternative opinions and basically runs away from a threads when it does not go your way . Witness that nonsense from you a few weeks ago when you started the Lance thread got ripped a new a*sehole and bolted soon after.

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

I will only reply to people I consider intelligent, sensible, mature and rational (for the most part). If you don't fit this then don't bother commenting as I wont even read what you write let alone reply to it.

That's a handy device for avoiding difficult questions about your heroes!