And the hits just keep on coming! 3 more riders positive

timoid.

frenchfighter wrote:

When I say Scarponi wasn't involved, I am talking about the following nine:

Ullrich, Basso, Sevilla, Mancebo, Contador, Beloki, Davis, Nozal, Jaksche.

Based on review of the summary documents, nine riders from four teams were linked to the alleged doping ring orchestrated by controversial Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes.

Jaksche got a ban

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Do I find Tommy V exciting? Yes. Is he a doper? N.
Do I find Landis Exciting? No. Is he a doper? Yes.

In summary: my excitement has nothing to do with doping.

You're not really comparing like with like there.

Of the GC riders. Most of the exciting riders ended up getting busted. Most of the boring wheel suckers didn't.

Excitement is subjective. You cannot tell me for one minute what I find exciting or not. What you should say is that of the GC riders that got busted you think they were exciting and that the ones that didn't you think they are boring. Examples would help too.

frenchfighter

sudholz, thanks for the comment.

The comments/attitude from some members that you refer to I find puzzling and pretty immature.

dennisn

frenchfighter wrote:

The comments/attitude from some members that you refer to I find puzzling and pretty immature.

C'mon, you love us??? Right?????

takethehighroad

I hadn't read any of this post because I knew why a simple "riders caught" had reached 5 pages. However, I just had to pick at the scratch, and I must say it's some decent entertainment actually.

Now, gentlemen, as you were, I have Kung Po Chicken to cook

sudholz

andyp wrote:

sudholz wrote:

fwiw Watching Di Luca's ars* boucing off the walls on the Civilio descent into Como as he attacked to win The Giro di Lombardia is one of the most exciting bits of bike racing I have ever seen. Everyone knew he would go there and no-one could do anything about it.

Di Luca hasn't won the Giro di Lombardia since the finish returned to Como. He won it when the finish was still in Bergamo.

:oops:
You probably know who I was getting him mixed up with which probably makes it worse!
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Who said facts matter on this forum anyway...?

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

Valverde is a superb rider and has provided me with much entertainment and excitement. If he is proven to be a doper fine, it wont detract from anything too much.

He has proven to be a doper, hasn't he? He's copped a sanction for it from the Italians.

Blood bag in Madrid. Blood has extra EPO in it. Blood bag attributed to Valverde. Italians DNA test blood and find it's Valverdes.

Not sure what else is required really.

Valv's first stage win in the Tour is an interesting one - Count the people who've been caught since.

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 4.50.35 (36.65 km/h)
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel
3 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 0.09
4 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 1.02
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 1.15
7 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita 2.14
8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
9 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team
10 Andrei Kashechkin (Kaz) Credit Agricole
11 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems
12 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir
13 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team
14 Jörg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros-Würth 2.19
15 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.50

blazing_saddles

Oh dear.
I'm convinced. Lance is really innocent, after all. :roll:

takethehighroad

iainf72 wrote:

Count the people who've been caught since.

11, what do I win?

iainf72

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Count the people who've been caught since.

11, what do I win?

One of these

Only Levi and Cadel haven't been implicated it anything. How bad is that.

frenchfighter

And what has that got to do with Contador? I'm still waiting. If nothing can be provided then you all need to stop making remarks to implicate him.

Your comment on Valverde is pretty pointless as like I said in my comment, doper or not I still find/found him exciting and enjoy watching him race.

Furthermore, unless all the authorities can agree on a ban then I am not interested.

frenchfighter

As Ronnie Coleman would say: Lightweight baby.

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

As Ronnie Coleman would say: Lightweight baby.

Ahhh. Have you ever upset Lance?

I have. So you should think I'm some kind of demi-god

Kléber

Each to his own, if we find rider X exciting or boring, that's fine.

But our sport is in a mess. It's not terminal, it's not a massive deal, but we've seen some riders cop full two year bans whilst others haven't been touched. There's something wrong when riders of one nationality get the book thrown at them and riders of another nationality carry on, when both have probably been doing the same thing. Nationality shouldn't determine whether you get a ban.

Riders will always dope but we can at least hope for even rules. It makes for a haphazard sport when the governing rules, if not the racing, aren't consistent and fair. I'd like to think no fan of cycling should accept this inconsistency as par for the course.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

And what has that got to do with Contador? I'm still waiting. If nothing can be provided then you all need to stop making remarks to implicate him.

Your comment on Valverde is pretty pointless as like I said in my comment, doper or not I still find/found him exciting and enjoy watching him race.

Furthermore, unless all the authorities can agree on a ban then I am not interested.

I think we've moved on from Contador (personally I think he probably wasn't involved in Puerto).

It's more your assertion that if Valverde is proven to have doped it won't detract that much from his achievements and the general submission that the sins of a doper are absolved as long as he was exciting.

I, and others, disagree with this philosophy.

You know who used to be a really attacking exciting rider? Cadel Evans - back in his MTB days (look up some of the reports). Not so many dopers in MTB (of course there were some). Yet he gets branded as boring, while the exciting darlings of the tifosi one by one get busted.

(also, for what it's worth I think Valverde either quit or toned it down a lot after Puerto - we've not seen the rider who won at Corcheval since)

afx237vi

iainf72 wrote:

Valv's first stage win in the Tour is an interesting one - Count the people who've been caught since.

1 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 4.50.35 (36.65 km/h)
2 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel
3 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 0.09
4 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
5 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 1.02
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 1.15
7 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita 2.14
8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
9 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team
10 Andrei Kashechkin (Kaz) Credit Agricole
11 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems
12 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir
13 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team
14 Jörg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros-Würth 2.19
15 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.50

Blimey. That is actually quite shocking. Who was lanterne rouge that year?

frenchfighter

Rich. You are mistaken if you think that I think that excitement absolves doping. I never said that and don't think it. What I said was if he cops a ban then I wont think he wasn't excting.

As for Cadel, well firstly I am a road purist so couldn't care less about mtb. I also don't think Cadel is boring. Far from it in fact. He has a volatile manner and has great determination sometimes. I don't like him as a character but he does provide excitement (admittedly less than some). This wheel sucking business is less true, but also because he is hanging on and cannot go the front or attack as he is on the limit. I draw your attention to his move in the Tour de France and his increidble attacking in le Dauphine (8 times on one climb if I remember correctly). Also, see what I said here about Evans:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... ande+velde

As for moving on from Contador, well yes I think you have all noted that you were wrong and that you have nothing remotely solid. So now you try and pick up on Valverde.

frenchfighter

afx237vi wrote:

Blimey. That is actually quite shocking. Who was lanterne rouge that year?

Yeah and who won the overall. Hmm.

afx237vi

frenchfighter wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Blimey. That is actually quite shocking. Who was lanterne rouge that year?

Yeah and who won the overall. Hmm.

Well according to your logic, he was cleared by the relevant authorities and therefore must be considered clean.

wreckedmyklein

[quoteas for moving on from Contador, well yes I think you have all noted that you were wrong and that you have nothing remotely solid.[/quote]

I suspect you are wrong here

frenchfighter

afx237vi wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Blimey. That is actually quite shocking. Who was lanterne rouge that year?

Yeah and who won the overall. Hmm.

Well according to your logic, he was cleared by the relevant authorities and therefore must be considered clean.

Haha, maybe not. He is dirty due to many reasons...lots of info here:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... =#15622983

afx237vi

Yes, I know, that has been posted here many, many, many (x 100) times before.

I'm just pointing out that it works both ways. Just because someone has been officially cleared, or an inquiry never got off the ground, it doesn't mean he is squeaky clean.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Rich. You are mistaken if you think that I think that excitement absolves doping. I never said that and don't think it. What I said was if he cops a ban then I wont think he wasn't excting.

As for Cadel, well firstly I am a road purist so couldn't care less about mtb. I also don't think Cadel is boring. Far from it in fact. He has a volatile manner and has great determination sometimes. I don't like him as a character but he does provide excitement (admittedly less than some). This wheel sucking business is less true, but also because he is hanging on and cannot go the front or attack as he is on the limit. I draw your attention to his move in the Tour de France and his increidble attacking in le Dauphine (8 times on one climb if I remember correctly). Also, see what I said here about Evans:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... ande+velde

As for moving on from Contador, well yes I think you have all noted that you were wrong and that you have nothing remotely solid. So now you try and pick up on Valverde.

To be fair I can see where your coming from. My first great sportsman to be busted was Ben Johnson, who destroyed Carl Lewis in 1988. I didn't stop me thinking it was impressive.

Many still say Pantani was one of their favorite riders. Others, like me, Ullrich. I think Hamilton's 2003 was an awesome ride. I've enjoyed performances of Vino, Landis and Armstrong (who you hate, but I'm pretty neutral about). DiLuca, Rebellin, Ricco and Rasmussen I didn't enjoy so much, because I didn't like them.

Hypocrisy is a way of life for almost all cycling fans (the only ones for whom it's not are the ones who watch just to spot doping). It's tricky really. Many rock bands made great entertaining music using illegal drugs - but no-one condemns them.

But one thing is for sure. If you are suspended for doping, all achievements are void. They're maybe great athletes, maybe great entertainers - but not great sportsmen. We can all agree that it would be great to see an entirely clean sport where we could see who the natural born entertainers are.

If Valverde has gone clean, then it would have been better for him to have gone the Basso route. As for Contador, I'm keeping an open mind. I'll defend him against Puerto, but there will always be a nagging little voice at the back of my mind.

I'm not entirely sure what my point here is. I guess I half agree with you and half don't.

RichN95.

afx237vi wrote:

Blimey. That is actually quite shocking. Who was lanterne rouge that year?

Iker Flores - beating the legendary Wim Vansevenant by 11 minutes, which has to be suspicious. Nobody attacked from the back of the peloton like Wim. I suspect Iker must have been on skunk and Nytol at the very least.

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

But one thing is for sure. If you are suspended for doping, all achievements are void. They're maybe great athletes, maybe great entertainers - but not great sportsmen. We can all agree that it would be great to see an entirely clean sport where we could see who the natural born entertainers are.

Agreed. I think doping is a disgrace. What I don't like is the assumptions and accusations before the point of proof. After that, have at them. Before that, no.

Basso (who Iain seems to really like) is a proven doper beyond doubt - this I find odd. Why he is accepted back by fans and the media whereas someone who isn't proven guilty is villified I don't quite understand. Admitting doping doesn't lessen your offence, it is only reflects on your character.

Doping per say doesn't make you interesting or exciting - that is made up of many different aspects. I guess what you could say is that it could potentially make a 'boring' rider interesting purely as he is able to perform on an 'unbelievable' level.

Not quite sure about your point on hypocrisy, so wont comment on it.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Not quite sure about your point on hypocrisy, so wont comment on it.

My point on hypocrisy was that while we all condemn doping, we all still have favourites that we know doped. As you said with Iainf and Basso (who I never stopped liking)

blazing_saddles

afx237vi wrote:

Well according to your logic, he was cleared by the relevant authorities and therefore must be considered clean.

Not if you don't like him, he's not.

takethehighroad

Pantani is still my favourite rider, simply because his (and Jan Ullrich's) performances, however tainted they may now be, were the ones that got me into cycling.

I've made this point before, that my first full Tour that I followed was in '98 (yes I'm young before you scoff!) and so I'm not AS effected by doping as some others are, because it's all I have ever known, that cyclists take drugs.

However, footballers dive, rugby players fake injuries and F1 drivers crash on purpose. It's human nature that people will do whatever is necessary to win.

Like you say, I'm a hypocritical cycling fan, the first thing I thought of when I saw Basso climbing in the 06 Giro wasn't "Oh he must be doped", it was "Oh he's beating Gilberto Simoni". Only now looking back is it obvious that something wasn't quite right.

Just as a small aside frenchfighter, I don't think it was proved beyond doubt that Basso doped, wasn't he banned for "attempting to dope", and the authorities said "Fair enough, have two years" ?

I think the reason he has been accepted back is because he's a bloody good bike rider, with or without dope. He also seems like a nice enough guy, which I may be criticised for, but I've read enough of his interviews, diaries, Twitter etc to form my own opinions on him.

Anyway, that's my ha'penny's worth, I'm still reeling from that stage finsih at Courchevel

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

[
Agreed. I think doping is a disgrace. What I don't like is the assumptions and accusations before the point of proof. After that, have at them. Before that, no.

.

Does that apply to all riders or as it as i suspect just those that you favour ?

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

Basso (who Iain seems to really like) is a proven doper beyond doubt - this I find odd. Why he is accepted back by fans and the media whereas someone who isn't proven guilty is villified I don't quite understand. Admitting doping doesn't lessen your offence, it is only reflects on your character.

If he's a proven doper beyond doubt, why was he only banned for attempted doping? I believe he doped, of course.

The evidence for other is exactly the same as for Basso yet he served a ban, many other didn't. You can see why the Italians get a bit grumpy about it. Valverde's case and Basso's case are exactly the same.

I can like riders I think are dopers or I find suspicious. For example I like Contador. But he doesn't sit easy with me.