Lance Haters

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  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    edited August 2009
    Ullrich isn't a great though. He was an interesting rider. He cannot be used in comparisons of greats.

    For those of you who are ignorant or simply are new and so don't know, I would have a look at his:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_(cycling)#Statistics
    Notice where Contador comes and notice that the others that he shares his achievements with, then note that the others did what they di in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s - none in the 90s and Contador in the 00s when it is harder to have the same dominence as Merckx et al. That is the level to judge whether a rider is a Grand Tour Great or not.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    So you're saying that Bertie is as good as Tony Rominger?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • bikerZA
    bikerZA Posts: 314
    Ullrich was good, but not great. Ultimately 2 grand tours, and olympic gold and world TT crown are pretty good, but he didn't do as much as he should have and had the potential to do.
    cyclecomparison.com
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    Moray Gub wrote:
    is that the level of debate we have reached in here
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Sure it was long post with some decent points but it was also littered with shite.

    I certainly can't miss the irony in that :wink:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    edited August 2009
    richard wants a baum wrote:
    Basso won the Giro, same Pantani, Ulrich the Vuelta they certainly didnt consentrate soley on one race. It does seem that some people cant argue a point without getting nasty (and that goes for both sides of the argument) i think most of Earthbound comments were about right, if you disagree then fine but maybe make a point instead of having ago at him? :roll: (or her :oops: whichever the case maybe)
    Only one won the Giro or Vuelta during lances 7 Tours and they did concentrate on one race which is what was the point in hand, and where did i get nasty and have a go at him ? If i think he has made a ludicrous or shite point i will say so thats not having a go so stop creating problem where theuy dont exist. I have an alternative opionion deal with and move on.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    chriskempton wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    is that the level of debate we have reached in here
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Sure it was long post with some decent points but it was also littered with shite.

    I certainly can't miss the irony in that :wink:

    Nice snipping btw
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Ullrich isn't a great though. He was an interesting rider. He cannot be used in comparisons of greats.

    For those of you who are ignorant or simply are new and so don't know, I would have a look at his:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_(cycling)#Statistics
    Notice where Contador comes and notice that the others that he shares his achievements with, then note that the others did what they di in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s - none in the 90s and Contador in the 00s when it is harder to have the same dominence as Merckx et al. That is the level to judge whether a rider is a Grand Tour Great or not.

    Id say Bertie has the weakest GT rivals for 20 odd years so id expect him to get into double figures at least.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Earthbound wrote:
    Just my considered opionion.

    And what an opinion at that. Without doubt the best post on Lance on this forum. I couldn't put it better and I am glad you emphasize how his racing is not note-worthy and do so with a knowledge of the sport and its history and what it means to true fans as opposed to July/Lance fans.

    I am intruigued as to what crireia you use to say what a true fan is and whats not a true fan ? Is this list you have made up and can anyone who has respect for Lances Tour wins be a true fan ? what if you know your cycling history and respect his acheivments are you a true fan ? are you yourself a true fan ? is dennisn a true fan ? am i a true fan ? is andyp a true fan ? is dave1 a true fan ? is daveyl a true fan ? and who decides what a true fan is ?........what about you you are suddenly the cycling intelligensia i think you should be the adjudicator. So first up me........i was on UK Mastermind in 1994 and my specialist subject was Professional cycling 1896-1990 i watch cycling all year round both on TV and by the roadside and i respect LAs tour wins..........i am a true fan...........you decide........

    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,722
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Id say Bertie has the weakest GT rivals for 20 odd years so id expect him to get into double figures at least.

    Only time will tell on that, MG. A number are still pretty young.
    I would also take exception to Lance's 2002 opposition being classed as strong. Far from it.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,722
    For me, Pantani is the big: "What if?"
    Giro/Tour double in 1998.
    Walking the 1999 Giro.
    If he hadn't been "popped" at Madonna Di Campiglio and not been in his usual,
    back of the field position at the Gois...............

    Could easily have completed back-to-back Giro/Tour doubles, regardless of what Lance fans would have us believe.

    Anyhow, the rest, as they say, is history......
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    bikerZA wrote:
    Ullrich was good, but not great. Ultimately 2 grand tours, and olympic gold and world TT crown are pretty good, but he didn't do as much as he should have and had the potential to do.

    I would say "pretty good" is something of an understatement. I think I would rank him a "bit" higher than that. He was the top cyclist in the world more than a few times. So IMHO "pretty good" needs "upgrading". :wink:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    For me, Pantani is the big: "What if?"
    Giro/Tour double in 1998.
    Walking the 1999 Giro.
    If he hadn't been "popped" at Madonna Di Campiglio and not been in his usual,
    back of the field position at the Gois...............

    Could easily have completed back-to-back Giro/Tour doubles, regardless of what Lance fans would have us believe.

    Anyhow, the rest, as they say, is history......

    Pantani wasnt on the passge that day he didnt ride the 99 Tour and if he did imo LA would have blown him away in the TTs and minimised time losses when the gradient went up. Pantani had a good element of fortune when Jan blew in the 98 tour. But the record books dont lie he won the 98 Tour just like LA won the next 7.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    BikingBernie wrote:
    elling is positively encouraged in this forum so i am not surprised
    'mericans seem to be pretty adept at fostering 'anti-American' feelings themselves without any help from places like this. Then again such 'anti-Americanism' usually is no such thing, being more an expression of resistance to America's invasion of Iraq, scary religious fundamentalism, 'Freepers' who paint Obama as being a 'communist' and so on.

    /quote]

    Yea whatever buy why focus on a posters nationality to have a pop at him in a cycling forum ? I just dont think its right at all.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    BikingBernie wrote:
    DaveyL wrote:
    ...you are on good form. First an attempt to demonise dennis (as if he needed it) by associating him with Republican "nuts" (a very topical cause you picked though, so points for that...
    Reading Dennis's previous posts makes it clear that not only does Dennis have Republican sympathies, given his declared 'love' of the extremist, right-wing, 'libertarian' dogma of Ayn Rand, I would not be at all surprised if Dennis spends his spare time waving a placard of Obama sporting a Hitler moustache and arguing that providing universal health care is an intolerable intrusion of 'the state' into people's lives. After all, Obama's plans are just the sort of thing Rand was opposed to.
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I dont see what his nationality has to do with anything ,is that the level of debate we have reached in here ?.............mind you anti american feelling is positively encouraged in this forum so i am not surprised
    'mericans seem to be pretty adept at fostering 'anti-American' feelings themselves without any help from places like this. Then again such 'anti-Americanism' usually is no such thing, being more an expression of resistance to America's invasion of Iraq, scary religious fundamentalism, 'Freepers' who paint Obama as being a 'communist' and so on.

    Anyhow, back to the Armstrong angle. Given his supposed concern for those suffering from cancer, has Armstrong been twittering of late in support of Obama's plans to provide health care for the approaching 50 million Americans who have no health cover and for whom a cancer diagnosis is probably a death sentence? If he hasn't I would suggest that this shows that his 'concern' for cancer sufferers is at best a half-hearted and at worst a fraud.

    It's really odd that you would assume that I am politically inclined at all. In truth I have very rarely voted. My wife(who worked for the City of Toledo before she retired) was the only one who could interest me in voting and that was only because she would tell me which candidate would give city workers a raise and I would vote for him / her. As a child, and as an adult, I have never watched any political convention on TV(other than the occasional glimpse). Politics, quite simply, bores me to death. I find that I just don't give a damn. Obama, Bush, Clinton, doesn't matter. I can't work up much enthusiasm. People say it's my duty / privilege to vote. I simply say, I don't have to if I don't want to. Just not anything that interests me. Pretty much the same with religion. Parents took me to church every Sunday. Bored me to death.
    As for Ayn Rand, well, all I can advise you there is to keep repeating "it's only a book",
    "it's only a book", "it's only....".
    Guess that proves one point anyway. You don't know me any more than I know you.
    And probably neither of us know Lance. Probably.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    dennisn wrote:
    bikerZA wrote:
    Ullrich was good, but not great. Ultimately 2 grand tours, and olympic gold and world TT crown are pretty good, but he didn't do as much as he should have and had the potential to do.

    I would say "pretty good" is something of an understatement. I think I would rank him a "bit" higher than that. He was the top cyclist in the world more than a few times. So IMHO "pretty good" needs "upgrading". :wink:

    +1 Dennis, even if he did probably buy the world road race. And without the Lance machine in his way, he would have been looking at 5-6GT minimum, even with his flaky attitude to the off season sausage.

    Stats are all very well, but they don't tell the whole story.
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Earthbound wrote:
    Just my considered opionion.

    And what an opinion at that. Without doubt the best post on Lance on this forum. I couldn't put it better and I am glad you emphasize how his racing is not note-worthy and do so with a knowledge of the sport and its history and what it means to true fans as opposed to July/Lance fans.

    I only hope he sticks to MTB as his presence is NOT welcome in the road scene. A despicable character and rider.

    As for some of the characters on this thread and other Lance related threads:
    'Get a bicycle. You will certainly not regret it, if you live.' -Mark Twain

    You know your own opinion there doesn't bear any of the considered rationale that was in Earthbound's post, ...he said "If half of the rumours..... are true... then Armstrong is a very despicable person." yours seems to be the other way, one of unquestionable personal dislike.
    frenchfighter wrote:
    I couldn't put it better
    . You said it.

    Plus... his presence is NOT welcome in the road scene? who says? ...don't be ridiculous, the lovers, the haters, the impartial, the casual viewers were all somewhat interested to see what he would do on his comeback that even goes for those who wanted him to fall flat on his face in humiliation. Cycling is on the up, Armstrong is on the way down, at least now its possible that road cycling as a whole can benefit from the exposure LA can bring for a couple of years without the calculated dominance.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    Moray Gub wrote:
    BikingBernie wrote:
    'mericans seem to be pretty adept at fostering 'anti-American' feelings themselves without any help from places like this. Then again such 'anti-Americanism' usually is no such thing, being more an expression of resistance to America's invasion of Iraq, scary religious fundamentalism, 'Freepers' who paint Obama as being a 'communist' and so on.
    Yea whatever, bu[t] why focus on a posters nationality to have a pop at him in a cycling forum ?
    Because much of the crap Dennis speaks, including in relation to cycling-related issues, is a direct product of all the brainwashing he has undergone since birth in order to make him a good corporate American. Surely, highlighting the context of Dennis' ramblings is actually to excuse his follies to some degree? The alternative would be to conclude that he is simply a crank!
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    BikingBernie wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    BikingBernie wrote:
    'mericans seem to be pretty adept at fostering 'anti-American' feelings themselves without any help from places like this. Then again such 'anti-Americanism' usually is no such thing, being more an expression of resistance to America's invasion of Iraq, scary religious fundamentalism, 'Freepers' who paint Obama as being a 'communist' and so on.
    Yea whatever, bu[t] why focus on a posters nationality to have a pop at him in a cycling forum ?
    Because much of the crap Dennis speaks, including in relation to cycling-related issues, is a direct product of all the brainwashing he has undergone since birth in order to make him a good corporate American. Surely, highlighting the context of Dennis' ramblings is actually to excuse his follies to some degree? The alternative would be to conclude that he is simply a crank!

    I would prefer that you just call me "cranky" instead of "a crank". I am over 60 and you know how we get. Been looking forward to being a cranky old geezer all my life. You know the type. The ones everyone says "don't pay much attention to him, he's just a mean, bitter, old b*stard". :wink::wink:
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    dennisn wrote:
    It's really odd that you would assume that I am politically inclined at all. ...In truth I have very rarely voted.
    You speak as though you believe that the two are somehow mutually inseparable...
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    mfin wrote:
    Plus... his presence is NOT welcome in the road scene? who says? ...don't be ridiculous, the lovers, the haters, the impartial, the casual viewers were all somewhat interested to see what he would do on his comeback that even goes for those who wanted him to fall flat on his face in humiliation.

    I say as it is my opinion. I wish he hadn't come back, thought he had a negative impact while he showed his fat legs at the Tour, and hope he never comes back again. Whether you believe it or not doesn't bother me in the least.

    Your other comments are not worth replying to.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    BikingBernie wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    It's really odd that you would assume that I am politically inclined at all. ...In truth I have very rarely voted.
    You speak as though you believe that the two are somehow mutually inseparable...

    Well, if I was interested in politics I might vote , but........
    Try not to make more of what I said than it is. I'm not, at all, interested in politics, I don't vote. Not much more to it than that. It's the way I am. And cranky also.
  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    frenchfighter wrote:

    I say as it is my opinion. I wish he hadn't come back, thought he had a negative impact while he showed his fat legs at the Tour.

    lance_armstrong.jpg

    Really fat legs.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    dennisn wrote:
    I'm not, at all, interested in politics...
    Even to say that is to make a political statement...
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    GP, do you know how much Lance weighs? Do you know how much Contador, Schleck, Sastre etc weigh? Go find find out then you might understand.

    ps. You got that picture on your bedroom wall?
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Here are a some more to save to your pc:

    hires_081104-N-3398B-170.jpg
    jake_lance_bike.jpg
    nrfl230806a_48.0.0.0x0.660x527.jpeg
    lance-detailsnov06.jpg
    Contador is the Greatest
  • lucybears
    lucybears Posts: 366
    here's one he might be able to win
    http://startlist.cyclingfever.com/start ... t&id=19385
    interview.cyclingfever.com
  • rockmount
    rockmount Posts: 761
    Jeeez I can't wait for the kids to go back to school.
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    frenchfighter wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    Plus... his presence is NOT welcome in the road scene? who says? ...don't be ridiculous, the lovers, the haters, the impartial, the casual viewers were all somewhat interested to see what he would do on his comeback that even goes for those who wanted him to fall flat on his face in humiliation.

    I say as it is my opinion. I wish he hadn't come back, thought he had a negative impact while he showed his fat legs at the Tour, and hope he never comes back again. Whether you believe it or not doesn't bother me in the least.

    Your other comments are not worth replying to.

    Really, well how about wording it like it is your opinion then, rather than stating it like its some kind of accepted fact? Then I wouldn't have commented would I !!

    No thanks for being condescending though, and if you really say you dont care what people think then why post your opinions in the first place? ...why not just delete your account and someone can clean out all your photos and posts? :wink:
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    frenchfighter wrote:
    I only hope he sticks to MTB as his presence is NOT welcome in the road scene. A despicable character and rider.

    As for some of the characters on this thread and other Lance related threads:
    'Get a bicycle. You will certainly not regret it, if you live.' -Mark Twain

    For normal people reading this, they would understand that it is my opinion and not someone elses. The clue is in the "I".

    How you thought otherwise is beyond me.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,722
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    For me, Pantani is the big: "What if?"
    Giro/Tour double in 1998.
    Walking the 1999 Giro.
    If he hadn't been "popped" at Madonna Di Campiglio and not been in his usual,
    back of the field position at the Gois...............

    Could easily have completed back-to-back Giro/Tour doubles, regardless of what Lance fans would have us believe.

    Anyhow, the rest, as they say, is history......

    Pantani wasnt on the passge that day he didnt ride the 99 Tour and if he did imo LA would have blown him away in the TTs and minimised time losses when the gradient went up. Pantani had a good element of fortune when Jan blew in the 98 tour. But the record books dont lie he won the 98 Tour just like LA won the next 7.

    I know, MG. Perhaps I phrased it poorly, but that was the gist of my "what if". :wink:
    He was flying in 99. Far better than in 98. Then along came that +50%HC.
    The Passage de Gois reference was hypothetical; based upon his usual swanning around at the back of the peloton.
    We all know what happened, that day.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

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