Lance Haters

DaveyL

"This man speaks as close to the truth as anyone I have ever seen"


"I've said it before and I'll say it again, the British are the most oppressed nation in the world.... We have been kept under the thumb, there's been no revolution, there's been no street action, what is, is viciously squashed in a way unparalleled..."

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

Uh oh - Bill Bailey. aurelio's rolled out the intellectual heavyweights. I surrender!

‘They say, many a true Word's spoken in Jest.’

BikingBernie

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

The French smell worse than the British. Fact!

Nice try!

Actually, in my experience, when it comes to 'stinking of garlic' the British fare worse than the French, what with their love of spicy Indian food and 'garlic bread' pizzas, a delicacy I have never even seen in France!

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Uh oh - Bill Bailey. aurelio's rolled out the intellectual heavyweights. I surrender!

‘They say, many a true Word's spoken in Jest.’

Or not, as the case may be.

takethehighroad

BikingBernie wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

The French smell worse than the British. Fact!

Nice try!

Actually, in my experience, when it comes to 'stinking of garlic' the British fare worse than the French, what with their love of spicy Indian food and 'garlic bread' pizzas, a delicacy I have never even seen in France!

I never said they stunk of garlic, I'd say it's more just a random smell that comes off them. And I should know, I lived there for 6 months!

grantus

Britain is oppressed?

You havin a laff?

Britain has oppressed half the world but as for you and me, we've got it good mate. If you want to get involved in politics to try and change things there's nowt stopping you in this country.

Now Iraq, there's a country we've managed to f*ck up good and proper for the last hundred years!

DaveyL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 179470.stm

Iran poll protests trial begins

"The first trial of people allegedly involved in post-election violence in Iran has begun.

The charges included rioting, vandalism, "acting against national security", and conspiring against the ruling system, state media reported.

The defendants included leading members of the opposition reform movement, including a former vice-president.

Some told the court their earlier claims of fraud during the 12 June poll were baseless, official media said.

Allegations of vote-rigging were made by defeated candidates and their supporters as soon as it became clear the president had been re-elected with a massive margin. "

That's a bit rough. Still, I bet the defendants are thiking, "Good job we don't live in Britain, they're really oppressed there."...

lucybears

Now, from El Pais, comes more details of Contador v Armstrong

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes ... idep_2/Tes

As the article is quite long and google-translate has its limitations, nyvelocity.com has made it available in english.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/ ... ne-command

BikingBernie

grantus wrote:

Britain is oppressed? You havin a laff?!

Are you really unaware of the huge raft of repressive legislation that the Government has passed in Britain in the last few years?

Havn't you noticed all the CCTV cameras on, or so it seems, every street corner in Britain?

Are you old enough to remember the way the police were used as a quasi-military force during the miner's strike?

Are you old enough to remember the wave of police violence used against travellers and festival-goers back in John Major's day, enforcing Major's maxim 'New age? Not in this age, not in any age!'. The 'Battle of the Beanfield' was particularly instructive, as the police attacked people with batons, set fire to the vehicles of travellers and smashed windscreens showering babies with glass and even dragging pregnant women out by their hair through the broken windscreens. Take a look at the ITV report on this incident on YouTube: the shocked reporter's reactions ensured that it was never actually broadcast on the news. It was only the intervention of the Earl of Cardigan that stopped the police from also bringing malicious prosecutions against those they had already attacked. See also:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jun/1 ... nythompson

Things don't change much. For example, the police at the Kingsnorth demo used 'psychological operations' and flew a helicopter over a festival picnic made up of families and small children broadcasting over loudspeakers the threat "Disperse now, or dogs, horses and long-handed batons will be deployed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... h-activism

At the G20 protests the police were reported as using agents provocateurs to incite the crowds.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009 ... ovacateurs

The police are also passing secret information on to private companies in an attempt to thwart legitimate protest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/2 ... -e-on-berr

Then there are the activities of the police surveillance units, building up secret databases on protestors and actively preventing journalists from recording what they (the police that is!) are up to.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/0 ... kingsnorth

I could carry on, but hopefully you will take my point.

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

I bet the defendants are thiking, "Good job we don't live in Britain, they're really oppressed there."...

Do you really think that malicious and politically motivated prosecutions are unknown in Britain?

I first became aware of the realities of this when my father was involved in the 1972 building workers strike, the one that saw Ricky Tomlinson (the actor) and Des Warren prosecuted for 'unlawful assembly' and jailed for two and three years respectively.

P.s. With reference to your report, a charge of rioting also carries a very heavy penalty in the UK, in case you didn't know.

reverendmark

BikingBernie wrote:

grantus wrote:

Britain is oppressed? You havin a laff?!

Are you really unaware of the huge raft of repressive legislation that the Government has passed in Britain in the last few years?

{snip}

I could carry on, but hopefully you will take my point.

You've cited examples of some disturbing policing behaviour over the years. You read about this in an independent newspaper (well, largely independent, the Guardian is not perfect). Indeed, you could read about it in the Telegraph and even sometimes in the Mail. A plurality of sources.

Not only can you read it, you can post it to a forum. You can even post it to a CYCLING forum!

It's not Iran.

jimmythecuckoo

So getting back to Lance then :roll:

grantus

Yes, all bad things done by the 'state'. The point is, you can join a political party and challenge them without fear of being put under house arrest or being 'disappeared' in the middle of the night.

Tibet is opressed.

You're not.

grantus

See what Lance started :shock:

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

I bet the defendants are thiking, "Good job we don't live in Britain, they're really oppressed there."...

Do you really think that malicious and politically motivated prosecutions are unknown in Britain?

I first became aware of the realities of this when my father was involved in the 1972 building workers strike, the one that saw Ricky Tomlinson (the actor) and Des Warren prosecuted for 'unlawful assembly' and jailed for two and three years respectively.

P.s. With reference to your report, a charge of rioting also carries a very heavy penalty in the UK, in case you didn't know.

I am not claiming they are unkown, and well you know it. This kind of thing, terrible as it is, goes on in many countries. Britain is not alone by any means. Even many warm and cuddly continental Euroopean countries have had compulsory ID cards for years, and there are many examples of human rights curtailment. Why not see how bad AI think we are compared to others?

My point was to highlight the absurdity of the claimmade by the individual on that youtube clip, who you have allayed yourself with. Do I really need to repeat those quotes again?

This man speaks as close to the truth as anyone I have ever seen"

"I've said it before and I'll say it again, the British are the most oppressed nation in the world.... We have been kept under the thumb, there's been no revolution, there's been no street action, what is, is viciously squashed in a way unparalleled..."

BikingBernie

reverendmark wrote:

Not only can you read it, you can post it to a forum. You can even post it to a CYCLING forum! It's not Iran.

No, of course Britain isn't Iran, but just because things are worse in some other countries doesn't mean people should be complacent. What's more the 'freedom of speech' people have in the UK is probably tolerated because the security services, police, ruling elite and government know that they have such a firm grip that protest is futile in any case! A similar story could be told in the US, where, even more so than in the UK, the vast majority of the media is owned by corporate interests so that 'dissenting voices' are effectively drowned out or at best marginalised.

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

My point was to highlight the absurdity of the claimmade by the individual on that youtube clip, who you have allayed yourself with. Do I really need to repeat those quotes again?

I have already answered you on this. See the previous page! :roll:

I accept that this particular claim is something of an exaggeration. What he said would have been more accurate if he had used a qualification such as 'historically Britain has been one of the most oppressed nations in the world'. I also pointed out that this minor omission hardly makes the rest of his arguments invalid. Next you will be trying to argue that he is wrong about the pervasive effects of the class system in Britain!

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

My point was to highlight the absurdity of the claimmade by the individual on that youtube clip, who you have allayed yourself with. Do I really need to repeat those quotes again?

I have already answered you on this. See the previous page! :roll:

I accept that this particular claim is something of an exaggeration. What he said would have been more accurate if he had used a qualification such as 'historically Britain has been one of the most oppressed nations in the world'. I also pointed out that this minor omission hardly makes the rest of his arguments invalid. Next you will be trying to argue that he is wrong about the pervasive effects of the class system in Britain!

And it wasn't a particularly satisfactory answer the first time either (because you qualified the statement to such an extent it bore no resemblance to what was originally said) - and no amount of eye rolling wll change that.

"I accept that this particular claim is something of an exaggeration". Glad to see you have accepted the second opportunity to back down on this one.

No-one claimed that "minor" (debatable, since it changes the claim from Britain being one of the most oppressive countries in the world to Britain being far from one of the most oppressive countries in the world) omission made the rest of his arguments invalid. You said "This man speaks as close to the truth as anyone I have ever seen" and I simply pointed out how ridiculous that statement was. I will also not be doing any arguing about the class syteem. You seem very keen to make assumptions about what I am going to say next and to decide which of his arguments I disagree with when I haven't even mentioned them! Where did you learn to debate in that manner? In the social sciences?

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

You said "This man speaks as close to the truth as anyone I have ever seen" and I simply pointed out how ridiculous that statement was.

Perhaps I simply haven't seen the people you seem to have who speak greater sense!

dennisn

So, everything is Lances fault? Or what was the question? I'm really lost now.
Hopefully my post will make it past those UK internet police. I was going to come over for a visit, see a show, wave at the Queen, see Big Ben, that kind of thing, but now, well it
just sounds way to repressive. Sounds like Cambodia during the Kymer Rouge.

BikingBernie

dennisn wrote:

I was going to come over for a visit, see a show, wave at the Queen, see Big Ben, that kind of thing, but now, well it just sounds way to repressive. Sounds like Cambodia during the Kymer Rouge.

More like the USA under Bush. You'll probably feel right at home!

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

frenchfighter

lucybears wrote:

Now, from El Pais, comes more details of Contador v Armstrong

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes ... idep_2/Tes

As the article is quite long and google-translate has its limitations, nyvelocity.com has made it available in english.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/ ... ne-command

Excellent article, thanks for posting. I am sure after reading this Lance's Lions view of their idol will improve.

jamlala

BikingBernie wrote:

grantus wrote:

Britain is oppressed? You havin a laff?!

Are you really unaware of the huge raft of repressive legislation that the Government has passed in Britain in the last few years?

Havn't you noticed all the CCTV cameras on, or so it seems, every street corner in Britain?

Are you old enough to remember the way the police were used as a quasi-military force during the miner's strike?

Are you old enough to remember the wave of police violence used against travellers and festival-goers back in John Major's day, enforcing Major's maxim 'New age? Not in this age, not in any age!'. The 'Battle of the Beanfield' was particularly instructive, as the police attacked people with batons, set fire to the vehicles of travellers and smashed windscreens showering babies with glass and even dragging pregnant women out by their hair through the broken windscreens. Take a look at the ITV report on this incident on YouTube: the shocked reporter's reactions ensured that it was never actually broadcast on the news. It was only the intervention of the Earl of Cardigan that stopped the police from also bringing malicious prosecutions against those they had already attacked. See also:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jun/1 ... nythompson

Things don't change much. For example, the police at the Kingsnorth demo used 'psychological operations' and flew a helicopter over a festival picnic made up of families and small children broadcasting over loudspeakers the threat "Disperse now, or dogs, horses and long-handed batons will be deployed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... h-activism

At the G20 protests the police were reported as using agents provocateurs to incite the crowds.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009 ... ovacateurs

The police are also passing secret information on to private companies in an attempt to thwart legitimate protest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/2 ... -e-on-berr

Then there are the activities of the police surveillance units, building up secret databases on protestors and actively preventing journalists from recording what they (the police that is!) are up to.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/0 ... kingsnorth

I could carry on, but hopefully you will take my point.

Had to be Guardian quotes didn't they? And we all know on which side of the fence they sit.....

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I was going to come over for a visit, see a show, wave at the Queen, see Big Ben, that kind of thing, but now, well it just sounds way to repressive. Sounds like Cambodia during the Kymer Rouge.

More like the USA under Bush. You'll probably feel right at home!

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

I'm sort of reminded of the, not so old, hippie saying, " Hey man, lighten up". Or the, somewhat newer, saying, "Hey man, chill out".

BikingBernie

JamLala wrote:

Had to be Guardian quotes didn't they? And we all know on which side of the fence they sit.....

Well, it is true that in Britain The Guardian is widely regarded as being left of centre, but that is largely a reflection of how right wing the UK really is!

In reality very similar quotes could be provided from Britain's right wing press, such as The Times and the Telegraph, and even the quasi-fascist Daily Mail printed very similar stories. For example:

Pictured: The shocking moment police officer grabs female climate change protester by the throat

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... hroat.html

All 114 power station protesters released as arrests spark civil liberties row

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-row.html

Caught on video... another G20 policeman lashes out at protester

Disturbing new film piles more pressure on Met

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ester.html

BikingBernie

dennisn wrote:

I'm sort of reminded of the, not so old, hippie saying, " Hey man, lighten up". Or the, somewhat newer, saying, "Hey man, chill out".

Don't tell me, your reaction would be to just open another beer! Right?

dennisn

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I'm sort of reminded of the, not so old, hippie saying, " Hey man, lighten up". Or the, somewhat newer, saying, "Hey man, chill out".

Don't tell me, your reaction would be to just open another beer! Right?

actually a nice pale ale does sound good. kind of hot today.

rockmount

dennisn wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I'm sort of reminded of the, not so old, hippie saying, " Hey man, lighten up". Or the, somewhat newer, saying, "Hey man, chill out".

Don't tell me, your reaction would be to just open another beer! Right?

actually a nice pale ale does sound good. kind of hot today.

Stuey01

BikingBernie wrote:

JamLala wrote:

Had to be Guardian quotes didn't they? And we all know on which side of the fence they sit.....

Well, it is true that in Britain The Guardian is widely regarded as being left of centre, but that is largely a reflection of how right wing the UK really is!

In reality very similar quotes could be provided from Britain's right wing press, such as The Times and the Telegraph, and even the quasi-fascist Daily Mail printed very similar stories. For example:

Pictured: The shocking moment police officer grabs female climate change protester by the throat

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... hroat.html

All 114 power station protesters released as arrests spark civil liberties row

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-row.html

Caught on video... another G20 policeman lashes out at protester

Disturbing new film piles more pressure on Met

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ester.html

I thought the dissenting voices were marginalised?
You know, rather than reported in both the left and right wing press, and pretty much all the large circulation newspapers.

BikingBernie

Stuey01 wrote:

I thought the dissenting voices were marginalised? You know, rather than reported in both the left and right wing press, and pretty much all the large circulation newspapers.

Well, things such as the G20 protests had such a high profile that they could hardly be ignored. Take a look at http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/ and you will find plenty of stories that have been ignored by the mainstream press, often including the Guardian, a process commonly called 'censorship by omission'.

Also worth a look:

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/archive.php

http://www.mediahell.org/index.htm

http://www.schnews.org.uk/index.php