Stage 20 - Montélimar - Mont-Ventoux - SPOILER

stagehopper

mididoctors wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.

There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.

Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.


Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.

I watched the last 20km of the climb and the preceding 3 weeks

listen mate.... if andy had ridden for the stage win him and bertie would have put a light year of distance between themselves and everyone else..

different league

Was there a mountain Andy Schleck didn't drop Armstrong on?

mididoctors

stagehopper wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.

There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.

Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.


Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.

I watched the last 20km of the climb and the preceding 3 weeks

listen mate.... if andy had ridden for the stage win him and bertie would have put a light year of distance between themselves and everyone else..

different league

Was there a mountain Andy Schleck didn't drop Armstrong on?

arcalis..... wind.... but bertie must have been very strong eh?

jackhammer111 - banned

mididoctors wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.

There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.

Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.


Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.

I watched the last 20km of the climb and the preceding 3 weeks

listen mate.... if andy had ridden for the stage win him and bertie would have put a light year of distance between themselves and everyone else..

different league

You just don't get it. You hatred of the guy is making claim thing that you'd know better if it didn't involve Lance.

You are right that on this day, in this tour, with this standing going in, if Andy had gone on the attack there would have been a bigger gap back to Lance. Lance's job would not have been any different and there he would not be concerned about losing time to second.

If it was anybody else you'd be understanding that it tells us nothing about what would have happened if, say, Lance had been defending second and Andy was trying to get it from him. Which is exactly what I'm saying the situation would have been had Lance not lost time to race tactics earlier on.

My position is debatable but not beyond reason.

jackhammer111 - banned

stagehopper wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.

There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.

Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.


Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.

I watched the last 20km of the climb and the preceding 3 weeks

listen mate.... if andy had ridden for the stage win him and bertie would have put a light year of distance between themselves and everyone else..

different league

Was there a mountain Andy Schleck didn't drop Armstrong on?

I don't know what race you are watching. :roll:

He didn't drop him today.
He was bound by rules not to chase stage 17
He didn't drop him on 16.
He didn't drop him on 9
He didn't drop him on 8.
He didn't drop him on 7.

In what time trial did Andy put time into Lance?

On which stage did Andy get caught out on a field spit and lose 40 seconds.

iainf72

jackhammer111 wrote:

He didn't drop him on 16.

Yes he did. The Saxo's sat up and he came back. Along with other people. It was good riding yes, but he wasn't the only one.

jackhammer111 - banned

iainf72 wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

He didn't drop him on 16.

Yes he did. The Saxo's sat up and he came back. Along with other people. It was good riding yes, but he wasn't the only one.

As I recall he soloed across a gap and bridged up. Very impressive. Hardly dropped.
Attacks that in the end fail don't count as drops. Everybody crosses the same finishing line.
If they "sat up" when they could have kept a gap, shame on them.

Same time.

iainf72

jackhammer111 wrote:

As I recall he soloed across a gap and bridged up. Very impressive. Hardly dropped.
Attacks that in the end fail don't count as drops. Everybody crosses the same finishing line.
If they "sat up" when they could have kept a gap, shame on them.

Same time.

That's what I mean. When the camera was on him alone it looked like he was soloing, but when it pulled back there were guys a little back going the same speed. He "blew past" Frank but 20 seconds later Frank was on his wheel.

If they hadn't sat up he wouldn't have come back. He did along with a good few others so good riding there all around.

Coriander

Gary Imlach has just said exactly what I was about to ask you guys - given what I've just seen how on earth was everyone given the same finish line? Cavendish seemed to be about 10 bike lengths ahead of the rest of the field so surely they should have finished X seconds behind him?

mididoctors

jackhammer111 wrote:

If it was anybody else you'd be understanding that it tells us nothing about what would have happened if, say, Lance had been defending second and Andy was trying to get it from him. Which is exactly what I'm saying the situation would have been had Lance not lost time to race tactics earlier on.

My position is debatable but not beyond reason.

so if it was a reversed position your claiming lance could have followed Andy... or even been able to be paced back by Contador (and what ridiculousness that would have been)

that's your position?

GreenJersey

It would have made an amazing finish if the GC was extremely close but all that happened was andy schleck trying to pull Frank with lance just holding his way

Squaggles

I quite like Lance , at least by the standards of this forum , but he clearly finished in the correct position . Team tactics didn't prevent him from finishing second .

jackhammer111 - banned

mididoctors wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

If it was anybody else you'd be understanding that it tells us nothing about what would have happened if, say, Lance had been defending second and Andy was trying to get it from him. Which is exactly what I'm saying the situation would have been had Lance not lost time to race tactics earlier on.

My position is debatable but not beyond reason.

so if it was a reversed position your claiming lance could have followed Andy... or even been able to be paced back by Contador (and what ridiculousness that would have been)

that's your position?

Lance looked very much in control of himself today. It would have been interesting to see who was the better climber today, but that's not the only point.

Lance was riding support in all of the mountain stages. Who was supporting him? If he'd have been leader of a team there's no way he loses over 2 minutes on stage 17 and his loses on 15 would have been smaller and it would have been up to Andy to put time into Lance today, and with team support of his own, that would have been a tall order.

The same thing happened in 2007. Levi clearly sacrificed himself on a couple of climbs and was stronger than Evans. In fact, only a 10 second drafting penalty kept him from being second as a teammate to Alberto.

It's phenominal to have 2 such riders on the same team.

Are you ready for next year?

mididoctors

jackhammer111 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

If it was anybody else you'd be understanding that it tells us nothing about what would have happened if, say, Lance had been defending second and Andy was trying to get it from him. Which is exactly what I'm saying the situation would have been had Lance not lost time to race tactics earlier on.

My position is debatable but not beyond reason.

so if it was a reversed position your claiming lance could have followed Andy... or even been able to be paced back by Contador (and what ridiculousness that would have been)

that's your position?

Lance looked very much in control of himself today. It would have been interesting to see who was the better climber today, but that's not the only point.

Lance was riding support in all of the mountain stages. Who was supporting him? If he'd have been leader of a team there's no way he loses over 2 minutes on stage 17 and his loses on 15 would have been smaller and it would have been up to Andy to put time into Lance today, and with team support of his own, that would have been a tall order.

The same thing happened in 2007. Levi clearly sacrificed himself on a couple of climbs and was stronger than Evans. In fact, only a 10 second drafting penalty kept him from being second as a teammate to Alberto.

It's phenominal to have 2 such riders on the same team.

Are you ready for next year?

so the only reason he didn't come second is he was riding for contador..?

so next year he will finish 2nd at least... thats your prediction?

???????????????????

stage 17

lets say contador is on another team.....


with kloden up the road wiggins still had to ride and allowed lance to come over the top

if kloden hadn't followed bertie and towed lance instead "as support" wiggins would of sat in the wheels without needing to work...

alternatively they would one two wiggo and work him over... well while thats all going on the schlecks are still up the road?

and lance only dropped wiggo after wiggins had dragged him up the the colombiere

if anything kloden up the road was the best option to get lance above wiggins on GC to cushion him in the TT

most/all of what they did was targeted at blasting wiggins off the podium and replacing him with Lance.

and they did it really well.. the one problem they had was kloden being dropped when bertie had a dig which could of played out worse if kloden had really cracked big time and allowed wiggins to take the pressure off the pedals....

mididoctors

I have never seen a team so dedicated to getting on the podium considering they already had the winner!

even Lance admits he was never short of team support FFS!

knedlicky

jackhammer111 wrote:

there ... are no bouderies

Interesting, perhaps in a slight Freudian slip sort of way, that the word you’ve written - ’bouderies’ – is the French word for ‘sulks’.

So if one were to re-write the phrase, including a definition of ‘sulks’, it could read
‘there ... is no remaining silent in a sullen, ill-humoured and offended manner’.

dennisn

MatHammond wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Cheshley wrote:

Any doubts anyone may have had about Lance's ability to ride with the best of them must surely have been put to bed today!!!

I have to disagree. The best of them are Andy who was waiting for Frank and Bertie who was waiting for Lance.
Both are a class above everyone else and could have left the rest of the big boys for dead.

For me, Andy Schleck was both the real or moral winner on Ventoux, and also the real or moral winner of the whole Tour.

AC is very good but I don't want to see Tour winners who attack as little as possible (although I realise team tactics may have tied his hands this time). Just like in other sports, in cycling you can win through one successful counter-attack and thereafter defending well, but I think it’s then a poor victory.

As for LA, nothing he might do will ever put my doubts about him to bed. I thought it very interesting to read that Geref (see Forget CERA thread from IainF72) puts on muscle mass, and, for a cyclist, LA seemed to have a disproportionate amount of that on his upper body, more than he had 3 years back.

Today, in fact the whole Tour too, I liked Pellizotti’s manner - not least today because when he crossed the line he looked so human, making a facial gesture along the lines of ‘Thank god that’s over’.

Don't be silly. Alberto wasn't waiting for Lance.
Clearly his job was to mark Andy and Lances was to mark Frank and Wiggo.

Nothing else needed to be done to achieve exactly the finish we got.

Lance was the second strongest rider. If he hadn't respected team rules with Alberto up the road on 2 climbs i can think of the top of my head, that time gap to Andy is gone. He was clearly marking Wiggo and others and wasn't free to ride until he was in a position to get free without dragging them with him.

Are you serious? Putting all controversies to one side, Lance did really well to take third but are you seriously saying he was stronger than Andy Schleck over the 3 weeks? That is, frankly, ridiculous.

A minute and 15 seconds behind????? I sure wouldn't qualify that as Andy S. being the
stronger rider than LA. Think what you're saying. Two guys ride mega miles, for three weeks, and finish within a minute or so of each other and you can call either one of them stronger than the other??? That's crazy.

stagehopper

jackhammer111 wrote:

If he'd have been leader of a team there's no way he loses over 2 minutes on stage 17 and his loses on 15 would have been smaller and it would have been up to Andy to put time into Lance today, and with team support of his own, that would have been a tall order.

Let's not forget Wiggins dragged Armstrong's arse up the Colombiere climb before his little attack at the top. Armstrong himself said he wasn't strong enough to go with the Schlecks and Contador on that stage.

I'm still struggling to understand who he wa smarking on Stage 16 when dropped by all the leading contenders, until they sat up allowing him and a few others to bridge back up. Perhaps he was marking Vandevelde?

jackhammer111 - banned

stagehopper wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

If he'd have been leader of a team there's no way he loses over 2 minutes on stage 17 and his loses on 15 would have been smaller and it would have been up to Andy to put time into Lance today, and with team support of his own, that would have been a tall order.

Let's not forget Wiggins dragged Armstrong's ars* up the Colombiere climb before his little attack at the top. Armstrong himself said he wasn't strong enough to go with the Schlecks and Contador on that stage.

I'm still struggling to understand who he wa smarking on Stage 16 when dropped by all the leading contenders, until they sat up allowing him and a few others to bridge back up. Perhaps he was marking Vandevelde?

About 17, when marking a contender you are not necessarily being dragged. You are just marking the riders tempo. Even if you can go faster you don't. The only way you can get up the road is to drop them like a stone. In this case it took him awhile to find a steep enough section to do that on.
Lance said he couldn't match the initial acceleration. He could have got clear of Wiggo soon after but Wiggo accelerated with him.

About 16, Why do you claim thay sat up as opposed to Lance accelerating to them? I don't see any tactical reason for the Schlecks to slow there. If the tempo slowed it was because they were gassed, which happens sometimes if you've attacked to early.
Result? Same time.

Quite Frankly

Mr Hammer:

As Contador and the Schleck brothers disappeared into the distance on Stage 17 he tried to drop Wiggo on the Col de Romme but failed. Need I remind you that the Romme had the highest average gradient of any of the major climbs on this year's tour. There were surely plenty of steep bits on that climb to drop Wiggo were there not? I remember Armstrong's attack on Wiggins very well, it was a weak one. Only after Wiggins had pulled him up 80% of the Colombiere did he feel strong enough to attack in the last 2km.

He didn't have the legs to ditch Wiggins on the Romme and he most certainly didn't have the legs to match Conatdor and A.Schleck in the mountains full stop.

The levels of delusion that you're displaying are so far off the scale that I think you really ought to seek some professional help.

jackhammer111 - banned

Quite Frankly wrote:

Mr Hammer:

As Contador and the Schleck brothers disappeared into the distance on Stage 17 he tried to drop Wiggo on the Col de Romme but failed. Need I remind you that the Romme had the highest average gradient of any of the major climbs on this year's tour. There were surely plenty of steep bits on that climb to drop Wiggo were there not? I remember Armstrong's attack on Wiggins very well, it was a weak one. Only after Wiggins had pulled him up 80% of the Colombiere did he feel strong enough to attack in the last 2km.

He didn't have the legs to ditch Wiggins on the Romme and he most certainly didn't have the legs to match Conatdor and A.Schleck in the mountains full stop.

The levels of delusion that you're displaying are so far off the scale that I think you really ought to seek some professional help.

I'm going to disagrees with you, but I'm going to try to do it more respectfully than you just did. I've gone back and looked at Lances first attack against Wiggo when he saw that he needed get after them. Wiggo did go with him and hang for a hundred meters or so. When that happens he has to call it off. Lance is the one that said he knew after that he was going to have to find a steeper section to attack on. That says a lot about Wiggo that the great Lance Armstrong had a hard time finding the correct place to drop him and my guess is that Wiggo himself would be more than glad to say that himself. Even the ITV guys, who from what I've heard aren't ardent Lance fans said in their race summery that Lance was trapped by the tactics for a long stretch. After Levi got hurt Lance had to real help for himself.
Paul Sherwood is also of the opinion Lance was the second best rider. I'd probably think he knows a bit more about the sport than you do.
I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but if you can't see any other possible opinions than your own it's you that needs the help.

jackhammer111 - banned

aurelio wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

Keep the door slightly ajar on Lance. You could be wrong about the guy.

Yeah right. A lovely bloke. Apart from when he was riding behind Simeoni in the Tour, leading his cronies in a chant of "Bastard, Bastard' because Simeoni dared to speak out about the actions of the king of doping doctors (and Armstrong's 'trainer') Michele Ferrari. And when he said to Prentice Steffan "I have a lot of money, good lawyers, and if you continue to talk, I'll destroy you". And when he said to Greg Lemond "I could find ten people who will say you did EPO. Ten people who would come forward." etc. etc.

Instead of taking the word of this sad lazy armchair blogger who won't get off his flabby ass actually go watch the Tour practically right outside his door, take the word of Lance's actual co-workers who roundly applauded Lance for not letting Simeoni grandstand the peloton and note how one after another they insulted him as he slinked off the the back of the field. Note also that Simeoni repeatedly attacked the yellow jersey on Champs-Élysées. A real hero that. I think orally flatulent, self flagulating, self appointed, self righteous finger waggers like this wanker could find a better spokesman for their cause.
Dr. Ferarri is no evil genius, is not convicted of any crime, and did not have some secret undetectable drug program that accounts for Lances 7 wins.
I think Lance just proved that.

You could use some fresh talking points.
Conspiracy nut jobs always have the same shtick. Faced with new information, they trot out the same tired material. Inuendo, guilt by association, and hearsay.
I think you guys need to hold a convention. Have some workshops, Get some motivational speakers. Your spirits are lagging. You need inspiration.

aurelio_-_banned

jackhammer111 wrote:

...this sad lazy armchair blogger who won't get off his flabby ass actually go watch the Tour practically right outside his door

I actually prefer doing to watching, so instead I went out on the bike around some of my local cols - 86 km in 3 hours 35 with over 2,000 m of climbing. Not bad for someone with a `flabby ass`. What`s more , unlike your idol I did it without the use of EPO or injections of `800 ml of packed cells`!

GeorgeShaw

jackhammer111 - banned wrote:

Even the ITV guys, who from what I've heard aren't ardent Lance fans ...

Now you are living on another planet. :roll:

GeorgeShaw

jackhammer111 - banned wrote:

The only way you can get up the road is to drop them like a stone ... He could have got clear of Wiggo soon after but Wiggo accelerated with him.

Putting aside the contradiction in the second part of that sentence, this was my earlier point. If he was so much a better climber than Wiggins, there is no need for a defensive role as he could have jumped clear, as Frank Schleck had done to him in an earlier stage.

Cumulonimbus

To look at it another way, Kloden did quite a lot of work earlier in the tour whereas Armstrong sat in his slipstream. Kloden faded towards the end of the tour, maybe as a result of this earlier work. Maybe HE was the third strongest rider in the race?

mididoctors

Cumulonimbus wrote:

To look at it another way, Kloden did quite a lot of work earlier in the tour whereas Armstrong sat in his slipstream. Kloden faded towards the end of the tour, maybe as a result of this earlier work. Maybe HE was the third strongest rider in the race?

yeah

pretty much my take..kloden was possibly a tad stronger than lance however in support of Lance he is psychologically tougher and more of a contender and In a team that didn't have contador i would favor lance as the leader over kloden if i was the DS despite ;'on paper" kloden having the better stats...

the amount of work kloden did compared to lance blurs the issue a great deal...

grantus

What's wrong with attacking the yellow jersey on the champs elysee?

Cumulonimbus

Simeoni was three hours behind so i fail to see how breaking away on the Champs-Elysses counts as an attack on the yellow jersey?

rockmount

Ok ... I concede white is black, how could I have not seen that .. so obvious really !!! :roll: :roll:

Jeff Jones

Please keep the debate civil.

Personal attacks will result in getting you banned.