Stage 20 - Montélimar - Mont-Ventoux - SPOILER
Comments
-
@Space - Re: Disappointment
I read your reply - fair enough mate. I guess I was never under the impression that Andy would test Contador with such a huge time gap so that when he didn't go even though he did look the strongest rider. So, while maybe others thought they would see Andy and AC battle it out for the stage win, that possibility never even crossed my mind. I appreciated your response though so I had a couple of questions -
1) Do you think this stage was poorly placed as the last meaningful stage? Should they have flip flopped the TT and Ventoux?
2) Do you think that Andy should have taken off to help Frank? My opinion was that Andy should have went far enough to gap everyone but AC who was obviously going to sit on his wheel. Then, let LA/Wiggo/Nibali lead the second group and have Frank attack much like what happened in Stage 15 (?). If you remember, after they got gapped, LA tried to slow down by riding small S curves and then Frank had the better acceleration.I thought maybe that group would slow enough that everyone would recover and then see who had the best acceleration. I know this brings Kloden back into the mix, but I think that's a better outcome than having Contador around to help.
3) If Jens doesn't eat pavement, is the result any different today?0 -
SpaceJunk wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:SpaceJunk wrote:Lance was the second strongest rider. If he hadn't respected team rules with Alberto up the road on 2 climbs i can think of the top of my head, that time gap to Andy is gone. He was clearly marking Wiggo and others and wasn't free to ride until he was in a position to get free without dragging them with him.
Jackhammer - you are delusional mate.
Is that the best you've got?
He lost over 2 minutes to Andy on stage 17. Lance had attacked Wiggo after AC and the Schlecks had gone up the road a bit but Wiggo came with him so he had to stop. Not because he couldn't have dropped him but because he couldn't have done so but because you just don't drag a contender closer to your teammate who is leading the race. So he waited a long time to find a steeper section where he could drop him without a response. He practically sprinted to the top of Col de la Colombière. Are you under the impression he couldn't have done that sooner if he hadn't been pinned by team rules?
Andy is a very strong climber and this year he was cleanly better in the mountains than Lance but we're only talking about 1' 13" seconds because of the time trialling
Excellent post and I appreciate your position.SpaceJunk wrote:But you see Jackhammer; LA found himself in that position because he wasn't good enough in the first place.
He clearly wasn't as good in any manner as Alberto.SpaceJunk wrote:Cast your mind back to Stage15 to Verbier.
AC attacked - sure LA couldn't chase down his own team mate. Then shortly afterwards, Andy attacked; LA now had an excuse to follow; he couldn't.
Using your theory that LA couldn't attack his own team mate - Frank now had to sit back and let Andy go. Frank waited and then he went - again LA couldn't follow.
You have a point about stage 15 in general. I don't agree that Frank could not attack however. An attack that's not followed is a different matter. If you are attacking toward your teammate and the contenders follow, you have to stop.
You are right, Alberto made a good attack, Lance didn't have a good enough day, but still once Alberto was up the road his main focus has to be as his defender. Seeing Lance cope with these dilemmas I found to be fascinating. More so on other stages like 17 than the one you rightly point out.SpaceJunk wrote:A couple of reasons for why I think Andy is rightly considered the second strongest rider of the race:
1. He didn't have a bad day in the mountains. LA did on stage 15 as highlighted above.
2. He finished the TdF as the strongest climber. In the last mountain stage to Mount Ventoux, he even looked stronger than AC. One gets the impression he could've ridden away from the main group (maybe with AC), but he wouldn't because of Frank. He did the majority of the work in that group, buffeting the others from the strong headwind.
Pretty simple, eh?
Reasons I think Lance was the stronger rider.
1. He time trialled better than Andy.
2. Andy was team leader and free to attack at will the entire race. Lance supported Alberto the entire tour. Pictures of Alberto following Lances wheel surrounded by Astana dominated the entire tour. That would not have been the case is Lance had led the team. Obviously Johan want Lance close to the lead in case something happend but I think it was clear after Monaco that Alberto could count on Lance, not the other way round. Alberto made 2 tactical mistakes that cost Lance time. Stage 7 and arguably stage 17 when he was isolated by the 2 Schlecks after dropping Kloden and they pushed him to the limit down the mountain all the way to the finish. Alberto was gassed at the finish, didn't win the stage. Maybe Kloden could have helped if he'd been given a moments rest, maybe not. Arguable.
Actually, after all the hype, Ventoux was a dissapointment to me. The top 3 riders had clear roles to play, and did nothing outside those roles.
Andy was too far back to win the race. His sole purpose in life was to get Frank into third.
Alberto was the clear winner and had no other purpose in life than to mark Andy.
Lance's only purpose in life was to protect the podium finish and all he had to do was mark Frank as Wiggo clearly was just hanging on.
I just watched the climb again and all of Andy's attacks were done by the time they got to the last 5 k and clearly all 4 of them were gassed. Frank was hanging on. Alberto Lance and Andy all looked about in the same shape and they just rode to the finish. Andy did the attacking earlier but in the end Lance arrived with no meaningful gap and was just as strong as Andy. In the end Andy could not have jumped away exposed on the last bit. It is impressive that he did most of the work there.
You have stage 15 as your argument. I have the fact that Lance was riding in support and my belief that his tactical disadvantage was worth more than 1' 13" using stage 17 as an example.0 -
Harry Hill wrote:and I believe he's been tested 11 times this tour so far . . . .
This is an interesting one, eh?
The testing is targetted based on biological passport data. Of course stage winners and people holding the jerseys get tested as a matter of course but a high number of tests without being the lead would indicate targetting.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:Don't be silly. Alberto wasn't waiting for Lance.
Clearly his job was to mark Andy and Lances was to mark Frank and Wiggo.
Lance was the second strongest rider. If he hadn't respected team rules with Alberto up the road on 2 climbs i can think of the top of my head, that time gap to Andy is gone. He was clearly marking Wiggo and others and wasn't free to ride until he was in a position to get free without dragging them with him.
Yes, Alberto was waiting for Lance and an extraordinarily good helper for Lance on Ventoux. Contador kept Armstrong out of the wind in the last kms, and pulled Lance back the only time Andy and Frank managed to break together.
Didn't you see Alberto's congratulating sign to Lance in the last corner?0 -
Very interesting.iainf72 wrote:Harry Hill wrote:and I believe he's been tested 11 times this tour so far . . . .
This is an interesting one, eh?
The testing is targetted based on biological passport data. Of course stage winners and people holding the jerseys get tested as a matter of course but a high number of tests without being the lead would indicate targetting.
0 -
Andy could have taken more time from Lance on Ventoux, none of his attacks were sustained all out efforts, Bertie would have been the only man to follow and I think a fair amount of time could have been lost by Lance.
The short attacks he did make were all for Frank, hence Lance was not the only man working for the team.
The GC placings have it right in this so called `strengh` comparison in my opinion. Bertie a fair chunk better than the rest, Andy chasing him down and the rest having a good old scrap for 3rd.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:knedlicky wrote:
For me, Andy Schleck was both the real or moral winner on Ventoux, and also the real or moral winner of the whole Tour.Timoid. wrote:
I have to disagree. The best of them are Andy who was waiting for Frank and Bertie who was waiting for Lance.Cheshley wrote:Any doubts anyone may have had about Lance's ability to ride with the best of them must surely have been put to bed today!!!
Both are a class above everyone else and could have left the rest of the big boys for dead.
AC is very good but I don't want to see Tour winners who attack as little as possible (although I realise team tactics may have tied his hands this time). Just like in other sports, in cycling you can win through one successful counter-attack and thereafter defending well, but I think it’s then a poor victory.
As for LA, nothing he might do will ever put my doubts about him to bed. I thought it very interesting to read that Geref (see Forget CERA thread from IainF72) puts on muscle mass, and, for a cyclist, LA seemed to have a disproportionate amount of that on his upper body, more than he had 3 years back.
Today, in fact the whole Tour too, I liked Pellizotti’s manner - not least today because when he crossed the line he looked so human, making a facial gesture along the lines of ‘Thank god that’s over’.
Don't be silly. Alberto wasn't waiting for Lance.
Clearly his job was to mark Andy and Lances was to mark Frank and Wiggo.
Nothing else needed to be done to achieve exactly the finish we got.
Lance was the second strongest rider. If he hadn't respected team rules with Alberto up the road on 2 climbs i can think of the top of my head, that time gap to Andy is gone. He was clearly marking Wiggo and others and wasn't free to ride until he was in a position to get free without dragging them with him.
Are you serious? Putting all controversies to one side, Lance did really well to take third but are you seriously saying he was stronger than Andy Schleck over the 3 weeks? That is, frankly, ridiculous.0 -
The Prodigy wrote:Andy could have taken more time from Lance on Ventoux, none of his attacks were sustained all out efforts, Bertie would have been the only man to follow and I think a fair amount of time could have been lost by Lance.
Fully agree with that.0 -
Armstrong took a grand total of 15 seconds out of andy schleck in stage 18 - hardly an earth shattering difference in TT performance there... LA's TT performance was pretty average if anything0
-
aurelio wrote:
Very interesting.iainf72 wrote:Harry Hill wrote:and I believe he's been tested 11 times this tour so far . . . .
This is an interesting one, eh?
The testing is targetted based on biological passport data. Of course stage winners and people holding the jerseys get tested as a matter of course but a high number of tests without being the lead would indicate targetting.
Yes, about as interesting as all the targetted testing Chinny and the Chuckle Brothers were subject to last year. Remember how, for quite a few weeks, their demise was imminent?
Anyway the UCI and AFLD said there would be a lot more testing at this year's Tour - maybe they are going further down the GC, and other guys have also been tested a lot but not felt the need to tell the world about it.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:Anyway the UCI and AFLD said there would be a lot more testing at this year's Tour - maybe they are going further down the GC, and other guys have also been tested a lot but not felt the need to tell the world about it.
The AFLD are retesting the top 20 from 08 again because of suspicious data.
Lets see if they get anyone this time, eh?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
RICHYBOYcp wrote:
Having just popped into see what the Anti LA brigade are saying about the masters unbeleivable performance....10 months training after 4 years off the bike...broken collar bones etc...coming on 38 year old...and still 3rd....superhuman.
And yet we still have this fud spouting all this insanity....what a real pity this particular section of bikeradar has reached such depths and has discouraged so many from input.
I suppose it's a good time for all fans of the great man to relive the last time he was on the podium. Remember, 2005. Flanked by Ullrich and Basso. "I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles". etc.
He does have a way with words, I'll give hm that.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
iainf72 wrote:DaveyL wrote:Anyway the UCI and AFLD said there would be a lot more testing at this year's Tour - maybe they are going further down the GC, and other guys have also been tested a lot but not felt the need to tell the world about it.
The AFLD are retesting the top 20 from 08 again because of suspicious data.
Lets see if they get anyone this time, eh?
Is this the same source that predicted some passport busts that never materialised? I'll believe it when I see it. Like the 08 Giro re-tests.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:
Is this the same source that predicted some passport busts that never materialised? I'll believe it when I see it. Like the 08 Giro re-tests.
Do you mean Landaluze? He did materialise. What is a passport bust? The UCI would claim Di Luca as one but he's more of just a dodgy wee type of guy.
It was the Italian legal system that were getting the Giro samples retested - But you're right, not seen any further mention of that.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:Alberto Lance and Andy all looked about in the same shape and they just rode to the finish. Andy did the attacking earlier but in the end Lance arrived with no meaningful gap and was just as strong as Andy.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Lance as second best is a load of twad, as is the idea that he only lost time because of his slavish devotion to protecting the dastardly-not-following team-orders Contador's back.
As Frank showed on Verbier, if you can get the jump on the following group, then the defensive role doesn't matter. Lance just couldn't get the jump without over-cooking, except in the last 2km of the Colombiere when he'd done nothing but sit on wheels and knew he could get to the top without over-cooking.
He showed that he's a good wily pro, making the race and splits work to his advantage. But he's got about as much chance of winning next year as Wiggo.0 -
FJS wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Don't be silly. Alberto wasn't waiting for Lance.
Clearly his job was to mark Andy and Lances was to mark Frank and Wiggo.
Lance was the second strongest rider. If he hadn't respected team rules with Alberto up the road on 2 climbs i can think of the top of my head, that time gap to Andy is gone. He was clearly marking Wiggo and others and wasn't free to ride until he was in a position to get free without dragging them with him.
Yes, Alberto was waiting for Lance and an extraordinarily good helper for Lance on Ventoux. Contador kept Armstrong out of the wind in the last kms, and pulled Lance back the only time Andy and Frank managed to break together.
Didn't you see Alberto's congratulating sign to Lance in the last corner?
Absolutely not true... AC went where Andy went over the whole climb... it was his only job. All Lance had to do was mark Frank and he needed no help to do that....at 3.6k to go Alberto takes Lances wheel and stays there until 1.6k.. getting a breather.. then Alberto rightly sees that Andy is about to attack again. Andy's attack comes at 1.4k where AC and Lance both match Andy's acceleration, Frank barely hanging on.. At 1.3k the attack is over and Lance rides the last bit right behind AC.
Point me to the spot where AC was waiting for Lance.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.0 -
mididoctors wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Alberto Lance and Andy all looked about in the same shape and they just rode to the finish. Andy did the attacking earlier but in the end Lance arrived with no meaningful gap and was just as strong as Andy.
that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.
There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.
Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:mididoctors wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Alberto Lance and Andy all looked about in the same shape and they just rode to the finish. Andy did the attacking earlier but in the end Lance arrived with no meaningful gap and was just as strong as Andy.
that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.
There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.
Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
Do at least get the grammar right in your blindly faithful, or just blind, postings. It would make them marginally easier to stomach.0 -
iainf72 wrote:DaveyL wrote:
Is this the same source that predicted some passport busts that never materialised? I'll believe it when I see it. Like the 08 Giro re-tests.
Do you mean Landaluze? He did materialise. What is a passport bust? The UCI would claim Di Luca as one but he's more of just a dodgy wee type of guy.
It was the Italian legal system that were getting the Giro samples retested - But you're right, not seen any further mention of that.
No, I think he would be refereing to the L'Equipe article a couple of days before the tour saying there would be 5-7 more sanctions coming down before the tour started.0 -
Coriander wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:mididoctors wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Alberto Lance and Andy all looked about in the same shape and they just rode to the finish. Andy did the attacking earlier but in the end Lance arrived with no meaningful gap and was just as strong as Andy.
that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.
There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.
Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts.
Do at least get the grammar right in your blindly faithful, or just blind, postings. It would make them marginally easier to stomach.
you want to argue my facts or just be a snooty little grammar cop?
Don't let the fact you don't like Lance keep you from learning about the sport.
Is the concept that you can dislike him yet respect him as an athlete to complicated for you?0 -
I do respect him; as I said in some post yesterday, he's got a great tactical mind and understanding of the race unfurling around him.
However, from what I have seen and heard of him (even allowing for some of it to be aprocryphal), I dislike him far more than I respect him.
And I can learn about the sport perfectly well while still disliking one, some or all of the participants.0 -
Mr. Hammer, you seem to have a real gift for being both aggressive and patronising...jackhammer111 wrote:
you want to argue my facts or just be a snooty little grammar cop?Coriander wrote:Do at least get the grammar right in your blindly faithful, or just blind, postings. It would make them marginally easier to stomach.
Don't let the fact you don't like Lance keep you from learning about the sport.
Is the concept that you can dislike him yet respect him as an athlete to complicated for you?0 -
In saying that, your tone is completely different than it was when the tour started.
Keep watching. Watch the way he interacts with people. Note him mending fences like going out of his way to apologize to Sastre or making Frankie Andreu his designated interviewer on Versus. Most importantly, listen to what the riders say about him, not the bloggers. The video he made with Eddy Merckx was telling.
I can tell you I know he's sincere about the foundation but if you don't believe in the Lance Armstrong Foundation try to give something to some other cancer charity.
Keep the door slightly ajar on Lance. You could be wrong about the guy.0 -
aurelio wrote:
Mr. Hammer, you seem to have a real gift for being both aggressive and patronising...jackhammer111 wrote:
you want to argue my facts or just be a snooty little grammar cop?Coriander wrote:Do at least get the grammar right in your blindly faithful, or just blind, postings. It would make them marginally easier to stomach.
Don't let the fact you don't like Lance keep you from learning about the sport.
Is the concept that you can dislike him yet respect him as an athlete to complicated for you?
I don't think you want to get into a name calling contest with me. I'd advise the moderator to get this jerk in line before I flame him into oblivion - jackhammer111.
You changed my name to something vulgar in quoting a post of mine.
Are you proud of that?0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:FJS wrote:jackhammer111 wrote:Don't be silly. Alberto wasn't waiting for Lance.
Clearly his job was to mark Andy and Lances was to mark Frank and Wiggo.
Lance was the second strongest rider. If he hadn't respected team rules with Alberto up the road on 2 climbs i can think of the top of my head, that time gap to Andy is gone. He was clearly marking Wiggo and others and wasn't free to ride until he was in a position to get free without dragging them with him.
Yes, Alberto was waiting for Lance and an extraordinarily good helper for Lance on Ventoux. Contador kept Armstrong out of the wind in the last kms, and pulled Lance back the only time Andy and Frank managed to break together.
Didn't you see Alberto's congratulating sign to Lance in the last corner?
Absolutely not true... AC went where Andy went over the whole climb... it was his only job. All Lance had to do was mark Frank and he needed no help to do that....at 3.6k to go Alberto takes Lances wheel and stays there until 1.6k.. getting a breather.. then Alberto rightly sees that Andy is about to attack again. Andy's attack comes at 1.4k where AC and Lance both match Andy's acceleration, Frank barely hanging on.. At 1.3k the attack is over and Lance rides the last bit right behind AC.
Point me to the spot where AC was waiting for Lance.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.
In the forest both Alberto and Andy constantly looked back, for Lance and Frank. Both could clearly have gone a lot faster but both did not chose to do so, out of loyalty to their respective teammates.
Lance and Bruyneel have both admitted that the third spot is a fair place to end the Tour for Lance, that he simply was not as good as Alberto and Andy. Really, this is where he was in this Tour, third, as everyone, really everyone but you,can see. I'm very sorry.0 -
Yeah right. A lovely bloke. Apart from when he was riding behind Simeoni in the Tour, leading his cronies in a chant of "Bastard, Bastard' because Simeoni dared to speak out about the actions of the king of doping doctors (and Armstrong's 'trainer') Michele Ferrari. And when he said to Prentice Steffan "I have a lot of money, good lawyers, and if you continue to talk, I'll destroy you". And when he said to Greg Lemond "I could find ten people who will say you did EPO. Ten people who would come forward." etc. etc.jackhammer111 wrote:Keep the door slightly ajar on Lance. You could be wrong about the guy.0 -
FJS wrote:
In the forest both Alberto and Andy constantly looked back, for Lance and Frank. Both could clearly have gone a lot faster but both did not chose to do so, out of loyalty to their respective teammates.
Lance and Bruyneel have both admitted that the third spot is a fair place to end the Tour for Lance, that he simply was not as good as Alberto and Andy. Really, this is where he was in this Tour, third, as everyone, really everyone but you,can see. I'm very sorry.
Oh, I'm quite happy with third. I just think it's clear he would have been second if not tied to team tactics. I'm not alone in this like some Lance fanboy that only shows up 1 month out of the year. I didn't just fall of the turnip truck.
Clearly, in the forest part Andy was trying to get Frank going before they hit the bare, windy part of the climb and waited repeatedly. But if you think Alberto was doing any more than going everywhere Andy went then you have something to learn about tactics. Lance was never under threat from Frank, Wiggo or anybody else. There was no reason for Alberto to be concerned.
If Alberto had tried to solo away from Andy, it would have been another tactical blunder as he would have left him alone in the high winds up the road on the hardest most dangerous part of the climb. There was no need. Also, if Alberto would have gone up the road Andy would have had to cover and leave thoughts of Frank behind. There was no need for Lance to do more than mark Frank and Wiggo on this stage. It was stage 20 of a stage race, not a one day race up a mountain.
For all of Andy's efforts, which were admirable, Lance was never in danger. The idea that the team would risk they yellow in any way to protect 3rd on the last real day is preposterous.
If you know anything you know that if all 4 of those guys had been on separate teams there's no real way to know how it would have turned out on that stage. Alberto would still win the tour, but different tactics probably would have made a different race for the top.
The 2k that Alberto spent on Lances wheel in the last 5 is why Andy's last attack went nowhere.0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:that gap happend after the last turn in less than 100 meters where it meant nothing.
There was not reason to try and get himself in the photo with AC.
Watch the last 5k again and tell me Lance wasn't equal to everybody on that climb. Like I said,
AC actually spent 2k in the last 5 riding Lances wheel.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.
Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but they are not entitled to there own facts.
I watched the last 20km of the climb and the preceding 3 weeks
listen mate.... if andy had ridden for the stage win him and bertie would have put a light year of distance between themselves and everyone else..
different league"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
jackhammer111 wrote:iainf72 wrote:DaveyL wrote:
Is this the same source that predicted some passport busts that never materialised? I'll believe it when I see it. Like the 08 Giro re-tests.
Do you mean Landaluze? He did materialise. What is a passport bust? The UCI would claim Di Luca as one but he's more of just a dodgy wee type of guy.
It was the Italian legal system that were getting the Giro samples retested - But you're right, not seen any further mention of that.
No, I think he would be refereing to the L'Equipe article a couple of days before the tour saying there would be 5-7 more sanctions coming down before the tour started.
That'll be the one. L'Equipe said so, so it must be true etc. etc.Le Blaireau (1)0
