Stage 14 - Colmar - Besancon SPOILER

jackhammer111 - banned

aurelio wrote:

Some people seem to be looking at a different sprint finish to me. So here are some stills of the finsih.

After a bit of argy-bargy, with Cavendish leaning on Hushovd with his right shoulder and his team mates blocking on the left, the sprint opens up. Note the large gap on the right between Cavendish and the barrier, which Hushovd has no option but to go for as he is blocked in on the left by Cavendish's leadout man and the other rider.

Very well done!! I see it now. I hadn't seen the overhead. It happens in that last little bend. Cav probably thinks he has a right to that line in the turn but he doesn't really.

aurelio_-_banned

jackhammer111 wrote:

Very well done!! I see it now. I hadn't seen the overhead. It happens in that last little bend. Cav probably thinks he has a right to that line in the turn but he doesn't really.

Thing is, given that he looked back at Hushovd trying to come past, he must have known that continuing on his line would put Hushovd into the barriers!

jackhammer111 - banned

stagehopper wrote:

the barriers bulge, Cavendish stays straight with respect to the central line.

you have a point. I thought there was a little bend in the road.

there isn't.

hmm..

BdeB

Thor used to be one of my favorite riders but the last 2 days he has looked like a real whinger. Esp yesterday when he had a go on the line at someone who had dared not just let him have the points.

Plus the reason the pelaton was so bunch was because Columbia weren't leading out for Cavendish. If they had not been at the front the bunch, the leaders would have arrived at much the same time and certainly within the 6 seconds George needed. If you watch it again Columbia are doing everything they can to slow it down until the last 500m and that was not 6 seconds worth of speed.

aurelio_-_banned

jackhammer111 wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

the barriers bulge, Cavendish stays straight with respect to the central line.

you have a point. I thought there was a little bend in the road.

there isn't.

hmm..

No, the barriers are as good as straight (pictures 1, 2 and 3) and the 'bend' is where the finish opens up further to the right (pictures 4 and 5).

RichN95.

aurelio wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

the barriers bulge, Cavendish stays straight with respect to the central line.

you have a point. I thought there was a little bend in the road.

there isn't.

hmm..

No, the barriers are as good as straight (pictures 1, 2 and 3) and the 'bend' is where the finish opens up further to the right (pictures 4 and 5).

Hold a ruler up to your pictures 4 and 5 and measure the width of the road at various points (particularly where Cav is in picture 4). It proves there's a bulge.

andrewgturnbull

stagehopper wrote:

the barriers bulge, Cavendish stays straight with respect to the central line.

Hi there.

Are you looking at the same pictures? I've got Cav's head moving from 78px from the centre line out to 103px by the 3rd one...

Aurelio called it right.

However, a dq is harsh, as Thor put himself in that position - if he wanted to be able to dictate his position on the road for the sprint then he should have put his team on the front to control the leadout.

Cheers, Andy

deal

andrewgturnbull wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

the barriers bulge, Cavendish stays straight with respect to the central line.

Hi there.

Are you looking at the same pictures? I've got Cav's head moving from 78px from the centre line out to 103px by the 3rd one...

blazing_saddles

Well, it doesn't matter now, even if we fly somebody out with a plumb line.
The result will stand and the green jersey battle has finished a week early.
A few centimetres are enough for "judges" to make the call.
Was it correct? maybe
Was the punishment correct, I don't think so, as nobody else was involved.
In fact, it seemed as if nobody could be bothered to make the effort.

I don't think anybody would quibble much, if their postions had been reversed.

Trouble is, with decisions like this, it makes the competition more like a diving event, or syncronised swimming.
Or maybe even the Seoul olympic boxing; subjective in the extreme.

Still, par for this turd of a course and sorry excuse for the sport's showpiece event.

I think I might now concentrate on the most difficult tussle to call.
That of the latern rouge.

aurelio_-_banned

RichN95 wrote:

Hold a ruler up to your pictures 4 and 5 and measure the width of the road at various points (particularly where Cav is in picture 4). It proves there's a bulge.

It also proves that Cavendish moves to the right with respect to the centre line, much more in fact than the road 'bulges' in from the right.

Also Cavendish had already started his move to shut the door on Hoshovd well before the 'bulge'. it looks like he picked his line knowing full well that Hushovd was on his right and that if he stayed where he was Hushovd would be forced straight into the barrier.

aurelio_-_banned

frenchfighter wrote:

Do you think that Pettachi got a DQ here?! You can clearly see he pulls across his line seriously and causes a major crash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLARyU24kU

Nasty! It certainly looks as though he should have been! Perhaps they take this sort of thing more seriously on the Tour.

Tusher

A-ha. Studying those stills, I foresee the worst possible scenario-

Thor believes he is in the right and I can understand why.

Cav believes he is in the right and I can understand why.

dshooman

The only person that moves is Hushovd, to avoid the barrier.
Everyone else keeps the same line as Cavendish.
Am I missing something?
Look at everyone, the barrier creeps up on them all.

dshooman

Sorry, Aurelio, I didn't mean to scupper the work you did, it was pretty meticulous. I am just adding the possibility that you may not have considered the other riders.
This is all a little Cavcentric and I propose he can be proved innocent by a google earth map of the finishing straight! If only I knew how to do this?

longdistanceclara

As Thor was behind Cav does Cav not have a right to protect his line? He did afterall have the racing line. Sour grapes on Thor's part IMHO, he knows he can't beat Cav so he gets him DQ instead, dirty tactics. Especially when he complained yesterday about a rider 'daring' to race him to the line and deprive him of another point, he is a sprinter for god's sake, go out and sprint and stop complaining when you get beaten!

aurelio_-_banned

dshooman wrote:

The only person that moves is Hushovd, to avoid the barrier.
Everyone else keeps the same line as Cavendish. Am I missing something? Look at everyone, the barrier creeps up on them all.

Cavandish and his leadout men all seem to be working together to get Hushovd boxed in against the right hand barrier, and the other riders are trying to follow their wheels, hence they all go in a similar direction! (Even though it is still Cavendish who finally shuts the door on Hushovd).

afx237vi

aurelio wrote:

dshooman wrote:

The only person that moves is Hushovd, to avoid the barrier.
Everyone else keeps the same line as Cavendish. Am I missing something? Look at everyone, the barrier creeps up on them all.

Cavandish and his leadout men all seem to be working together to get Hushovd boxed in against the right hand barrier, and the other riders are trying to follow their wheels, hence they all go in a similar direction! (Even though it is still Cavendish who finally shuts the door on Hushovd).

Simple question - do you think it was worthy of a disqualification or not?

stagehopper

other riders have no obligation to move out of the way and create space to compensate for Thor's poor positioning.

jackhammer111 - banned

In frame 2 Cav looks to his right and probably can get a glimse of Thor.
The distance from the centerline to the right barrier is clearly way less in frame 4 than it is in frame 3. Is Cav taking advantage of that? Probably but it seems to me that the course is partialy to blame here.
In the last frame his is looking to his left because Thor hasn't appeared on his right as he expected.

It brings to mind that terrible crash a few months ago where a rider got trapped by uneven barriers. What possible excuse is there for that barrier to not be completely straight there?

The left side is dead straight.

aurelio_-_banned

stagehopper wrote:

other riders have no obligation to move out of the way and create space to compensate for Thor's poor positioning.

His positioning was fine, and he had plenty of space to pass, which he started to do. If Cavendish wanted to stop Hushovd passing he should have done it by going faster, not by trying to put him into the barriers.

aurelio_-_banned

afx237vi wrote:

Simple question - do you think it was worthy of a disqualification or not?

If his behaviour was against the rules (which is seems to be) perhaps the real question is, should the rules of the sport be enforced?

avoidingmyphd

aurelio, nice work on the stills. better than anything the tv has given us.

aurelio wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Simple question - do you think it was worthy of a disqualification or not?

If his behaviour was against the rules (which is seems to be) perhaps the real question is, should the rules of the sport be enforced?

but you're evading the question! the rules don't require a DQ do they? Don't they leave scope for a lesser punishment, like reversing their positions?

If so, do you think it merited a DQ?

RichN95.

afx237vi wrote:

Simple question - do you think it was worthy of a disqualification or not?

Robbie McEwen doesn't and he knows more than all of us put together.

Ultimately, this argument really comes down to whether you like Cav or not

afx237vi

aurelio wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Simple question - do you think it was worthy of a disqualification or not?

If his behaviour was against the rules (which is seems to be) perhaps the real question is, should the rules of the sport be enforced?

Jeez, a yes or a no would have done. The rules are written in a way that allow a jury to give a subjective opinion. If you were on the jury, would you DQ him or not?

aurelio_-_banned

avoidingmyphd wrote:

you're evading the question! the rules don't require a DQ do they? Don't they leave scope for a lesser punishment, like reversing their positions? If so, do you think it merited a DQ?

Sharp, very sharp!

I am sure that the judges are better qualified than me to make such a decision.

afx237vi

Here is the rule:

2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others.

Does he deviate from his line? Debatable. Does he endanger others? IMO, absolutely not.

mmitchell88

I'm a big fan of Cav. But...the fact that he's frequently looking around at what's happening behind him is a strong indicator that he should be aware of who's next to/behind him. He can see what's coming up ahead, he should be aware of how a run in close to the barriers may look. The appearance is that he's trying to manage the sprint.

Hushovd had poor positioning? If I knew I was going to be outgunned one-to-one, I'd at least allow my closest competitor to try something on. Looks like Hushovd actually chose an excellent position.

Ah, blx. No DQ - just reverse the placing. Or give it to me.

aurelio_-_banned

mmitchell88 wrote:

I'm a big fan of Cav... No DQ - just reverse the placing.

I not a big fan of Cavendish, but I would have been happy to see that as an outcome. I won't lose any sleep about his relegation to 154th place though.

Adieu

To be honest, if Hushovd wants to follow Cav's wheel as he has been doing, shouldn't he pay the price that it may get him into a difficult situation. Cav isn't following any rivals and therefore can position himself where he wants. If you insist on following someone else, you have to go where they go.

I think this is a disgrace.

teagar

Had Cavendish not looked over at Hushovd just before Hushovd got squeezed (for whatever reason), I think he'd have a stronger case...