Armstrong vs Contador

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  • symo
    symo Posts: 1,743
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Contador is out on his Sunday stroll:

    bettiniphoto_0041866_1_full_600.jpg

    Nice of him to slow down to see if that old man wheezing up the hill is OK.
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    we are the proud, the few, Descendents.

    Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.
  • Steven Martin
    Steven Martin Posts: 280
    Apologies in advance if someone has posted this, but this has really made my blood boil. I was already sickened by the sycophancy of Liggett's commentary but this is beyond the pale.

    Top 5 Most Amazing Tour Moments
    By Phil Liggett
    .
    .
    .
    3. The return of Lance Armstrong to the very top of his game did not surprise. But to see him ride so well when always under the pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador, made it a pleasure to commentate on him. In fact the result was a repeat of 2007 as the team got first and third on the podium, plus the team win overall as well.

    from here: http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/8 ... _video.tpl

    'pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador' - Words fail me.
  • avalon
    avalon Posts: 345
    Steven Martin wrote:
    Apologies in advance if someone has posted this, but this has really made my blood boil. I was already sickened by the sycophancy of Liggett's commentary but this is beyond the pale.

    Top 5 Most Amazing Tour Moments
    By Phil Liggett
    .
    .
    .
    3. The return of Lance Armstrong to the very top of his game did not surprise. But to see him ride so well when always under the pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador, made it a pleasure to commentate on him. In fact the result was a repeat of 2007 as the team got first and third on the podium, plus the team win overall as well.

    from here: http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/8 ... _video.tpl

    'pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador' - Words fail me.


    He has a side line selling buckets.
  • andyxm
    andyxm Posts: 132
    Steven Martin wrote:
    Apologies in advance if someone has posted this, but this has really made my blood boil. I was already sickened by the sycophancy of Liggett's commentary but this is beyond the pale.

    Top 5 Most Amazing Tour Moments
    By Phil Liggett
    .
    .
    .
    3. The return of Lance Armstrong to the very top of his game did not surprise. But to see him ride so well when always under the pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador, made it a pleasure to commentate on him. In fact the result was a repeat of 2007 as the team got first and third on the podium, plus the team win overall as well.

    from here: http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/8 ... _video.tpl

    'pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador' - Words fail me.

    I bet Paul & Phil's bedroom walls are covered with posters of Lance
  • avalon
    avalon Posts: 345
    andyxm wrote:
    Steven Martin wrote:
    Apologies in advance if someone has posted this, but this has really made my blood boil. I was already sickened by the sycophancy of Liggett's commentary but this is beyond the pale.

    Top 5 Most Amazing Tour Moments
    By Phil Liggett
    .
    .
    .
    3. The return of Lance Armstrong to the very top of his game did not surprise. But to see him ride so well when always under the pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador, made it a pleasure to commentate on him. In fact the result was a repeat of 2007 as the team got first and third on the podium, plus the team win overall as well.

    from here: http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/8 ... _video.tpl

    'pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador' - Words fail me.

    I bet Paul & Phil's bedroom walls are covered with posters of Lance

    And well stuck down in Sherwin's pad.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Taken from another froum and apparently source is l'Equipe.

    Lance lovers, Alberto haters. READ THIS WELL.
    Alberto had to bum a ride back with his brother after reconning the Annecy TT, all the available team cars were out at the airport picking up LA's family, GF and kids.

    No team cars waited for the Astana team leader and yellow jersey wearer on the Ventoux after the protocol - LA had already sped off to Avignon in JB's car for his tete-à-tete with his new cash cows. AC had to bum a ride down off the mountain from his fan club.

    ... but also, AC was voted one of the most accessible and friendly riders by the press corps.

    He also made sure to go thank all his team-mates after every stage -- including LA.


    When his local cycling club (from Pinto) showed up, he made sure they all got passes for the village depart and spent hours hanging out and joking with these true friends and supporters.

    But I guess since he didn't twitter about any of this, it didn't happen.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Its a real shame, I always thought of Phil Liggett as the voice of cycling, got into the sport watching the tour in the late 80s and he was as much a part of cycling as Murray Walker was Formula 1. But these last few years his silence on the whole doping issue has appeared a little misplaced, and his Lance worshipping sycophancy this year has just been too much. That quote pretty seals his fate - I have lost almost all respect.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,550
    He hasn't been silent, he's criticised the "few bad apples" who've doped. Even when it was apparent that teams were engaging in wholescale, team wide doping programs.

    He's a dinosaur now. As is Sherwen, Graham Watson and, sadly, Rupert Guinness. All sychophants in thrall to the myth of Armstrong.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    andyp wrote:
    He hasn't been silent, he's criticised the "few bad apples" who've doped. Even when it was apparent that teams were engaging in wholescale, team wide doping programs.

    He's a dinosaur now. As is Sherwen, Graham Watson and, sadly, Rupert Guinness. All sychophants in thrall to the myth of Armstrong.

    +1
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    I'm going to have to play devils advocate here. Phil knows LA. Probably talks to him on a regular basis. Maybe they are close friends and see each other socially? So I'm thinking
    that Phil, who would appear the be a "normal" human being, would be able to see through LA's facade with even more ease than most of you. Yet he appears to "like" the man and
    that's not easy to fake. If LA is this horrible creature, as some on this forum claim, I would guess that Phil would see it in a minute and not lavish praise on him at all. So would every one of his "friends" and fellow racers. I tend not to hang around vicious, vile, disgusting people, so why should you think that other people would. If he was as bad as is claimed
    people wouldn't come within 5 miles of him. Yet there they are, talking to him, laughing with him, smiling at him, and he's doing the same to them. Not at all like the ogre everyone describes.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,550
    Most people learn from a very early age that you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    andyp wrote:
    Most people learn from a very early age that you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    So, you will put up with anything as long as it feeds you. C'mon, even dogs will finally have enough and take it out on a hunk of your hide. I don't buy your "I'd just go belly up"
    argument. People(and dogs and all the other animals) just don't do that.
  • GeorgeShaw
    GeorgeShaw Posts: 764
    Steven Martin wrote:
    Apologies in advance if someone has posted this, but this has really made my blood boil. I was already sickened by the sycophancy of Liggett's commentary but this is beyond the pale.

    Top 5 Most Amazing Tour Moments
    By Phil Liggett
    .
    .
    .
    3. The return of Lance Armstrong to the very top of his game did not surprise. But to see him ride so well when always under the pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador, made it a pleasure to commentate on him. In fact the result was a repeat of 2007 as the team got first and third on the podium, plus the team win overall as well.

    from here: http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/8 ... _video.tpl

    'pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador' - Words fail me.

    Isn't the most telling phrase "him and his team"?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I think many journalists need to learn a lesson about keeping some distance between themselves and their subjects. Sure it helps with access and all but can damage getting anything sensible out of said journalist.

    It's like not meeting your heroes in case they turn out to be pricks.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    dennisn wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    Most people learn from a very early age that you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    So, you will put up with anything as long as it feeds you. C'mon, even dogs will finally have enough and take it out on a hunk of your hide. I don't buy your "I'd just go belly up"
    argument. People(and dogs and all the other animals) just don't do that.

    fair enough but...

    what is the alternative explanation?

    lance was being turned over by a contador/astana conspiracy?

    the analysis implied in Phil's comments must be refereeing to some TdF that took place in an alternative universe. because it sure as hell didn't take place in this one...

    Phil must be playing to the audience of versus OR he is an idiot?

    if your right the man can't see reality...how anybody could construe that Lance had in some way been sidelined by his team and put under pressure is beyond me.

    alternatively if Phil is right then the ability of many commentators here(elsewhere) to predict what was going to happen must be some miracle coincidence.
    .....................................................................................................................................

    irrespective of Phil's motivation he is either right or wrong.. wrong being the most likely given the alternative...

    then your left with this conundrum..how could he be so blatantly wrong and write that piece?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,550
    To say that Liggett's fawning commentary lacked objectivity would be the understatement of the year. I find it hard to believe that anyone, regardless of their views on Contador or Armstrong, found it credible.

    He should retire gracefully, whilst some of us still remember his informative commentary from the World of Sport and Channel 4 days.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    mididoctors wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    Most people learn from a very early age that you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    So, you will put up with anything as long as it feeds you. C'mon, even dogs will finally have enough and take it out on a hunk of your hide. I don't buy your "I'd just go belly up"
    argument. People(and dogs and all the other animals) just don't do that.

    fair enough but...

    what is the alternative explanation?

    lance was being turned over by a contador/astana conspiracy?

    the analysis implied in Phil's comments must be refereeing to some TdF that took place in an alternative universe. because it sure as hell didn't take place in this one...

    Phil must be playing to the audience of versus OR he is an idiot?

    if your right the man can't see reality...how anybody could construe that Lance had in some way been sidelined by his team and put under pressure is beyond me.

    alternatively if Phil is right then the ability of many commentators here(elsewhere) to predict what was going to happen must be some miracle coincidence.
    .....................................................................................................................................

    irrespective of Phil's motivation he is either right or wrong.. wrong being the most likely given the alternative...

    then your left with this conundrum..how could he be so blatantly wrong and write that piece?

    I'm going to be brutally honest here. No offence intended. What the h*ll are you talking about? I'm talking "belly up" and you're, well, you're somewhere in the Twilight Zone. :roll: :wink::wink:
    I other words. You lost me.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    lance himself never made any complaint about the team!
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    dennisn wrote:

    I'm going to be brutally honest here. No offence intended. What the h*ll are you talking about? I'm talking "belly up" and you're, well, you're somewhere in the Twilight Zone. :roll: :wink::wink:
    I other words. You lost me.

    If Phil's piece is an honest appraisal how come it's so inaccurate?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    mididoctors wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    I'm going to be brutally honest here. No offence intended. What the h*ll are you talking about? I'm talking "belly up" and you're, well, you're somewhere in the Twilight Zone. :roll: :wink::wink:
    I other words. You lost me.

    If Phil's piece is an honest appraisal how come it's so inaccurate?

    Suppose you were a Lance fan. What would you think of it then? I think it's pretty normal
    for people to disagree with anything nice said about someone they dislike or hate.
    I see it here in the states every day. Half(give or take) of the people feel Obama(or any President) can do no wrong and the other half(give or take) feel that the man is a.........
    , well, you get the idea. Why would LA be any different than any other well known person?
  • Steven Martin
    Steven Martin Posts: 280
    GeorgeShaw wrote:
    Steven Martin wrote:
    Apologies in advance if someone has posted this, but this has really made my blood boil. I was already sickened by the sycophancy of Liggett's commentary but this is beyond the pale.

    Top 5 Most Amazing Tour Moments
    By Phil Liggett
    .
    .
    .
    3. The return of Lance Armstrong to the very top of his game did not surprise. But to see him ride so well when always under the pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador, made it a pleasure to commentate on him. In fact the result was a repeat of 2007 as the team got first and third on the podium, plus the team win overall as well.

    from here: http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/8 ... _video.tpl

    'pressure placed on him and his team by Alberto Contador' - Words fail me.

    Isn't the most telling phrase "him and his team"?

    Very Freudian. Phil must believe that the skinny guy from Spain was bullying the entire team...
    And if the skinny wee Spanish guy can put the entire team under so much pressure on his own, then he must think Radio Shack will have no chance against Contador when he has a team to support him.

    In reference to some other points made by dennisn and andyp:
    I don't doubt that Phil likes Armstrong. And as Phil has (as far as I believe) never said a bad word about Armstrong, then the feeling is probably mutual. I suspect that it is in both their professional interests to be on good terms with each other.
    However, professionalism and journalistic objectivity should not be so compromised by a personal friendship.
    And I do not doubt for a second that Phil is at least partially playing to the audience. Look at the comments on the stories on versus and most of the contributors appear to be newcomers to the sport with very partisan views based upon their citizenship.
    There are a few people who have pointed out the very biased nature of the coverage by Liggett, and at least Versus has posted their comments.
    Mine aren't up yet though....
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    dennisn wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    I'm going to be brutally honest here. No offence intended. What the h*ll are you talking about? I'm talking "belly up" and you're, well, you're somewhere in the Twilight Zone. :roll: :wink::wink:
    I other words. You lost me.

    If Phil's piece is an honest appraisal how come it's so inaccurate?

    Suppose you were a Lance fan. What would you think of it then? I think it's pretty normal
    for people to disagree with anything nice said about someone they dislike or hate.
    I see it here in the states every day. Half(give or take) of the people feel Obama(or any President) can do no wrong and the other half(give or take) feel that the man is a.........
    , well, you get the idea. Why would LA be any different than any other well known person?

    thats not a good answer... not least because in essence your claiming Phil is dishonest because he will always side with Lance...if you follow your thinking here that is where it leads

    ok so you think it's a 50/50 deal vis a vis perception...

    choose one

    which rider was more under pressure from his own team?

    A)Contador

    B)Lance

    if we polled that question what answer would get more votes A or B?

    I find unlikely that the majority of people are going to answer B.. I doubt Phil would choose B

    if your going to open up these different arguments?

    you can change the question to which rider got more support from his team.?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Crazy thing just a moment ago. I had this great answer all ready to go and the phone rang. Talked for a bit. Hung up. Turned around, only to discover that, obviously, I was in the Twilight Zone because it had somehow disappeared. Must have bumped the keyboard. It was great though. Would have been my crowning glory and put to rest
    all the doubters.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    dennisn wrote:
    Crazy thing just a moment ago. I had this great answer all ready to go and the phone rang. Talked for a bit. Hung up. Turned around, only to discover that, obviously, I was in the Twilight Zone because it had somehow disappeared. Must have bumped the keyboard. It was great though. Would have been my crowning glory and put to rest
    all the doubters.

    ok night night
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rockmount
    rockmount Posts: 761
    Something struck me at Le Tour ... if Lance is such a nasty character, how come so many riders, and team staff were wearing his little yellow bands ??
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    rockmount wrote:
    Something struck me at Le Tour ... if Lance is such a nasty character, how come so many riders, and team staff were wearing his little yellow bands ??

    Because people are perfectly capable of differentiating between a nasty character and a good cause.
  • jamlala
    jamlala Posts: 284
    Ever get the feeling this thread is going round in circles? :roll:
    Cannondale Supersix 105 2013- summer bike - love it!
    Cannondale CAAD12 - racing fun!
    Trek Crockett 5 - CX bike, muddy fun!
    Scott Scale 940 MTB XC racer.
    __@    
    _`\<,_   
    ---- (*)/ (*)
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    JamLala wrote:
    Ever get the feeling this thread is going round in circles? :roll:

    What was the topic?????
  • gregssmirkingrevenge
    gregssmirkingrevenge Posts: 64
    Everyone seems to agree Lance is promoting a good cause and is an inspiration to millions of people. So i don't understand why people don't just put up with him being part of the sport rather than ranting about how much of a dick he is.

    He brings more attention to cycling, which is a good thing.

    He brings more attention to the cancer cause which is a good thing.

    He makes the racing more competetive which is a good thing.

    He creates drama and fierce rivalries in the sport which is a good thing.

    He brings a lot of media attention and sponsorship money to the sport which is a good thing.

    If you prefer Contador or feel he's been unfairly treated, just let it go and be content that he's proven he's a superior rider and is at the better end of his career. Lance may have done his best to bully and intimidate Contador out of the leadership position, but look what happened- despite the odds, Contador quite wonderfully, single handedly kicked everyone ass with some style. Contador is no victim here- he is a great champion and easily a match for The Boss.

    I personally am licking my lips already about next year. Chapeau Contador and Armstrong.
  • jamlala
    jamlala Posts: 284
    Good call greg, end of thread......oh no here come frenchfighter.
    Cannondale Supersix 105 2013- summer bike - love it!
    Cannondale CAAD12 - racing fun!
    Trek Crockett 5 - CX bike, muddy fun!
    Scott Scale 940 MTB XC racer.
    __@    
    _`\<,_   
    ---- (*)/ (*)

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