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Going "into the red" on hills

BhimaBhima Posts: 2,145
How often do people go into the red on a training ride? I've always tried to avoid it, so I can ride longer, but the concept of "no pain, no gain", is making me think that I should start pushing higher gears so my legs can really burn. :twisted:

I've done the same 65-mile loop for the past 7 days now. Loads and loads of hills involved. (3%-17%) Been getting the train out and back to the peaks so I can spend more time doing harder riding and wasting less time.

Every time i've paced it so I wouldn't be too tired at the end of the ride and would be able to go out the next day, as i've had loads of free time for riding.

Not able to go out today and tomorrow, so I tried to do the ride at the highest pace possible yesterday and I was in the "red zone" quite a few times - where I needed a few minutes of easy pace recovery riding after each effort.

Even if I wanted to go out today, I wouldn't, as my legs are in a mess! I pushed beyond my normal limits yeterday, and I pushed BIG TIME.

Am I better off doing these harder interval rides every 2 days on the hills with a rest day inbetween or keep things steady and do average-paced hilly rides 6 days a week? I want to be able to go out as much as possible, but i'm not sure that taking the hills at an easy pace would be as beneficial as attacking them and forcing my legs into the pain-zone.

My aim is to get better at the hills, as they seem to be my weakest link. Not training for any particular race or anything, i'm just trying to get fitter first.

Which is more beneficial? More riding? Or less riding with more pain?

Oh, and banana count this week is currently around the 55 mark. :oops:
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Posts

  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    You need to add easy days to your strict training regime and work harder on the hard days.
  • InfamousInfamous Posts: 1,158
    So you've done a hilly 700k in the last 7 days and your legs are hurting? It's a mystery.

    You should basically ride as fast as you can for the duration of the ride (taking tomorrow's ride into account if need be) what you have done is great training and you should stick with it if you can imo, it's unlikely you'll be able to ride this much for the rest of your life, better to do it now than never. What average speeds are you hitting?

    You say hills are your weakest link but you're only a small fella aren't you? you should be pretty quick uphill i'd of thought...

    Also, 55 bananas? just have a mars bar.

    Again a 100% A+++++ thread from bhima.
  • MettanMettan Posts: 2,103
    Bhima wrote:
    Am I better off doing these harder interval rides every 2 days on the hills with a rest day inbetween or keep things steady and do average-paced hilly rides 6 days a week? I want to be able to go out as much as possible, but i'm not sure that taking the hills at an easy pace would be as beneficial as attacking them and forcing my legs into the pain-zone.

    Definately incorporate rest days - helps with muscle repair/growth. I don't think you need to go "into the red on hills" as such - rather, every (hard) ride should incorporate intense efforts at different points - that might be attacking inclines, holding 28 mph on the flat for a short while, etc, etc. Just ride regulary (3 or 4 times a week) and enjoy putting in a range of intense efforts throughout your rides.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    From the title of the thread, I was thinking he'd switched from bananas to strawberries.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    Bhima wrote:
    Been getting the train out and back to the peaks so I can spend more time doing harder riding and wasting less time.

    :

    Another classic. :lol:
  • BhimaBhima Posts: 2,145
    Infamous wrote:
    it's unlikely you'll be able to ride this much for the rest of your life, better to do it now than never. What average speeds are you hitting?

    Why do you say that?

    Sunday was 18.1 and yesterday was lower at 16.7 because of all the slow recovery riding. No idea about the other days as I don't really take notice of average speeds anymore and am always resetting the clock for specific stretches of road which I like to sprint on.
    Infamous wrote:
    You say hills are your weakest link but you're only a small fella aren't you? you should be pretty quick uphill i'd of thought...

    I think it's more of a weight issue. I used to weigh a lot less. On the flat, i'm a lot better, where the aerodynamics of my body are quite good (looking at some photos, anyway). According to everyone i've spoken to (including my doctor), the harder rides will be better for burning fat as long as I have a calorie deficit. Currently, I weigh 78kg but was 72kg in January, which is like carrying another bike with me up the hill! I don't know why, as I have started eating a very good diet recently. Perhaps it's muscle mass. 1m 80cm tall, so not too small.

    I can out-sprint a few people on the flat, who destroy me on the hills. Obviously, to get better on hills, you just ride more hills, but attacking the hills in a massive gear is a completely different workout to just spinning up them. Am I over-analyzing everything too much? Any riding up hills should help, regardless of technique, I would have thought...?
    Infamous wrote:
    Also, 55 bananas? just have a mars bar.

    A LOT of those were in milkshakes though. Down to a more sensible figure of 2 BPH on the bike now. 8)
    chrisw12 wrote:
    Bhima wrote:
    Been getting the train out and back to the peaks so I can spend more time doing harder riding and wasting less time.

    :

    Another classic. :lol:

    :?: Loads of people I know do this, or drive out to the countryside. Got a free week-pass from a National Rail employee, so i'm making the most of it! :wink: Traffic towards the city centre of Manchester is awful. I've had to bang on a few windscreens and shout a lot of abuse recently. :x
  • InfamousInfamous Posts: 1,158
    Bhima wrote:
    Infamous wrote:
    it's unlikely you'll be able to ride this much for the rest of your life, better to do it now than never. What average speeds are you hitting?
    Why do you say that?
    Because most people can't ride for 20 hours a week for their whole lives, I've heard that some people work for a living. So enjoy it while you can!
    Bhima wrote:
    Sunday was 18.1 and yesterday was lower at 16.7 because of all the slow recovery riding. No idea about the other days as I don't really take notice of average speeds anymore and am always resetting the clock for specific stretches of road which I like to sprint on.
    I'd hate that! I'm censored about mileage etc.
    Bhima wrote:
    I think it's more of a weight issue. I used to weigh a lot less. On the flat, i'm a lot better, where the aerodynamics of my body are quite good (looking at some photos, anyway). According to everyone i've spoken to (including my doctor), the harder rides will be better for burning fat as long as I have a calorie deficit. Currently, I weigh 78kg but was 72kg in January, which is like carrying another bike with me up the hill! I don't know why, as I have started eating a very good diet recently. Perhaps it's muscle mass. 1m 80cm tall, so not too small.
    You're still not that heavy and doing 100k a day is going to help, but again you should cut down the bananas. fwiw, on my last metric century (thursday), I only ate 1 mars bar, drank about 1 litre of water/sports drink and did it at over 19 mph... you don't need to eat that much! maybe all that banana is making you fat.
    Bhima wrote:
    I can out-sprint a few people on the flat, who destroy me on the hills. Obviously, to get better on hills, you just ride more hills, but attacking the hills in a massive gear is a completely different workout to just spinning up them. Am I over-analyzing everything too much? Any riding up hills should help, regardless of technique, I would have thought...?
    Hills or no hills, it's intensity that matters, you seem to be doing alright with it so just keep sticking at it and don't forget recovery.
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    What made me laugh was the idea of saving time by catching a train out to a good area 7 times in a week.

    You know I can understand doing that once or twice (done it myself to ride a tt course) but doing it seven times! How much time is 'wasted' catching the train?

    That must be the most extreme of bad time management I've seen.

    Why are you under the impression that to get good on hills, you have to make such an effort to ride hills?

    Yes specific training is good but ime good climbing is mostly about power/weight ratio and you can just as easily increase the power part by doing proper training on the flat.
  • BhimaBhima Posts: 2,145
    Infamous wrote:
    Because most people can't ride for 20 hours a week for their whole lives, I've heard that some people work for a living. So enjoy it while you can!

    I've got 2 jobs, looking for a 3rd & I run my own business! :)
    Infamous wrote:
    You're still not that heavy and doing 100k a day is going to help, but again you should cut down the bananas. fwiw, on my last metric century (thursday), I only ate 1 mars bar, drank about 1 litre of water/sports drink and did it at over 19 mph... you don't need to eat that much! maybe all that banana is making you fat.

    The more I think about it, the more I reckon it could be to do with hunger & overheating (especially in the recent sunny weather), not a lack of fuel & hydration. Then again, loads of people on here say you should "eat before you get hungry" and "drink before you get thirsty". I tend to eat loads of porrige/pasta 3 hours before I go out (to make sure it's all digested properly) - i'm going to shorten the gap to 2 hours, eat some low-GI snacks in the gap and see how I get on. I probably don't "need" the bananas, my stomach "wants" them, if you follow...
    chrisw12 wrote:
    How much time is 'wasted' catching the train?
    I'm not doing it in rushour so it's OK.

    To get to the start of the loop (bottom of the cat & fiddle), it usually takes between 58-65 minutes on the bike on roads with craters in them, while trying to dodge the people in metal boxes trying to kill me. To get to the start via a train is 28 minutes! That's 1hr saved (going there and back). Not got a free pass anymore but it's about £5 for a return ticket. I think i'll save it for busy days/times.
    chrisw12 wrote:
    you can just as easily increase the power part by doing proper training on the flat.
    Yes, but putting out a similar effort on the flat is like going about 25-30mph - no roads near me will allow that for long, not even out in the middle of nowhere. Going up hills allows you to do it for 5 - 30 minutes and only going 2-8 miles. There's also the increased overheating oh hills, due to the lack of cooling wind and all the different body positioning which i'm trying to get used to.
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    Um but it's not a hour saved, you've wasted a hour(total) in the train!

    Anyway each to their own, me personaly I'd prefer to ditch the train idea and get an extra hour training in, even if that does mean taking the risk with people trying to kill you.
  • BhimaBhima Posts: 2,145
    chrisw12 wrote:
    Um but it's not a hour saved, you've wasted a hour(total) in the train!

    No, technically, it's an hour of "training".

    Sorry, terrible pun. :roll:

    The hour I "lose" is re-captured as an extra hour of riding on good roads. Dodging cars is not my idea of training to be honest. I know I can kill myself and just descend back into Macclesfield for the train if I completely blow!
  • DomProDomPro Posts: 321
    You sure like to talk about yourself a lot.
    Shazam !!
  • a_n_ta_n_t Posts: 2,011
    Bhima wrote:
    Am I over-analyzing everything too much?

    :shock:
    Manchester wheelers

    PB's
    10m 20:21 2014
    25m 53:18 20:13
    50m 1:57:12 2013
    100m Yeah right.
  • BhimaBhima Posts: 2,145
    It is a training forum, analysis should be it's function! :D

    Anyway, I think things are going a bit off-topic here. I'll just ride more and see how it goes. :lol:
  • InfamousInfamous Posts: 1,158
    lay off bhima guys, this is one of his less offensive threads.
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    Bhima wrote:
    I've got 2 jobs, looking for a 3rd & I run my own business! :)

    who ya gonna call..? no answer .. out on his feckin bike again
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    Bhima, you need to join a club and do some chain gangs.
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Bhima, you need to join a club and do some chain gangs.
    Didn't you tell him that 2 weeks ago?

    The thing about asking for advice is that sooner or later you actually have to try following it.
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    Appologies, I'm not having a go at Bhima, it's just that his posts seem to be full of contradiction and confusion.

    My first reaction when I read most of his posts is that here is one guy who desperately needs a coach or some guidance (which he could get from a decent club)

    To his credit, he asks some very good questions and it's nice to see someone that is always thinking about things and trying to find his own answers.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    Bronzie wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Bhima, you need to join a club and do some chain gangs.
    Didn't you tell him that 2 weeks ago?

    The thing about asking for advice is that sooner or later you actually have to try following it.

    Ohhhh yes.

    And I'm just going to keep repeating it until he does it.

    Problem is, if he follows the advice given he'll then have nothing to ask about on here...
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 8,640
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Bronzie wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Bhima, you need to join a club and do some chain gangs.
    Didn't you tell him that 2 weeks ago?

    The thing about asking for advice is that sooner or later you actually have to try following it.

    Ohhhh yes.

    And I'm just going to keep repeating it until he does it.

    Problem is, if he follows the advice given he'll then have nothing to ask about on here...

    Chaingang wouldn't help him at all. Might teach him to ride in a group - but it's not the best 'training' method. Certainly won't help much with getting better at hills.

    However - joining a club and riding with other people (many of whom are very experience and can give great advice WHILE you are riding) would be, by far, the best thing he could do right now.

    But he's determined to do his own thing.

    BTW - do you do the club runs - or just the chaingangs? I'll be back on Monday...
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    Pokerface, I just mean in general he should do a chain gang, particularly wityh a faster group... Most of my interval etc are done on my own because I can stick to a program but the chain gangs sharpen you up IMO.

    I do try to do as many club runs as possible but both of us working shifts means I'm rarely free on a Saturday.

    I'll be there Monday though...
  • PokerfacePokerface Posts: 8,640
    jgsi wrote:
    Bhima wrote:
    I've got 2 jobs, looking for a 3rd & I run my own business! :)

    who ya gonna call..? no answer .. out on his feckin bike again

    It's impressive that he has 3 jobs - and yet still has the time to do a 4 hour ride (plus travel time of an additional hour or so) on a daily basis. I have one job and find it hard enough to get a 3 hour ride in a few times a week.


    He must never sleep.
  • LangerDanLangerDan Posts: 6,132
    Bhima wrote:

    Oh, and banana count this week is currently around the 55 mark. :oops:

    Oops indeed - you are probably taking twice the RDA of potassium in bananas alone, let alone from any other sources you may be taking. Excess potassium is not a good thing and can be a reason you may be feeling fatigued. (that and the insistence on flogging yourself senseless 7 days a week)
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • AggieboyAggieboy Posts: 4,014
    [
    quote="Bhima"]To get to the start of the loop (bottom of the cat & fiddle), it usually takes between 58-65 minutes on the bike on roads with craters in them, while trying to dodge the people in metal boxes trying to kill me. To get to the start via a train is 28 minutes! That's 1hr saved (going there and back). Not got a free pass anymore but it's about £5 for a return ticket. I think i'll save it for busy days/times.


    Whizz out there, with your bike, in your Peugeot!
    "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world, t'would be a pity to damage yours."
  • DaSyDaSy Posts: 599
    I think the simple answer is to formulate a varied training plan.

    Some days will be shorter intense efforts, follow with an easier recovery or zone 2 type of day, build in some rest days and some long days at a lower intensity with maybe some hard efforts on hills everynow and then.

    Trying to formulate one type of ride that will enhance all aspects and just keep doing it day in day out is impossible.

    Doing your hard intervals on a 65 mile ride is going to mean you cannot go hard enough to get the proper benefit, and still finish the ride. Conversely going too hard on a longer steady state ride means you won't be able to spend the required time riding.

    Try and mix it up to get a full range of riding types in, and plan them so that they compliment each other chronologicaly.
    Complicating matters since 1965
  • Slow1972Slow1972 Posts: 362
    So the other week its 5 mile TTs daily, now its 65 mile hilly loops daily. Talk about one extreme to the other.

    IIRC the upshot of the advice from that thread from some other posters was:

    1) Its good to have some variety rather than doing the same session every time;

    2) You seriously need to read a proper book on training or get some coaching so you can get some structure and sense to what you're doing.

    Glad to see as usual you've ingnored the advice more or less completely and gone on your merry way. I've no problem with you doing your own thing but having done so why then come back and whitter on here about training and what should you do if you're not going to listen to any of the advice you receive?

    And I agree, 55 bananas in a week does not sound like part of a balanced diet to me. No wonder you're putting on weight, surprised you don't smell like a banana as well... :)

    And given Willhub drops you on the climbs I'm a bit surprised you are averaging over 18 mph on a 65 mile hilly circuit that starts at the bottom of the Cat and Fiddle, I smell a bit of Bhima bullsh*t again
  • EdwinEdwin Posts: 785
    Not just that, an average banana contains 108 kcal - that's 5940 kcal in bananas alone, just by what, tuesday?
    Was that a joke?
  • InfamousInfamous Posts: 1,158
    DaSy wrote:
    Doing your hard intervals on a 65 mile ride is going to mean you cannot go hard enough to get the proper benefit, and still finish the ride. Conversely going too hard on a longer steady state ride means you won't be able to spend the required time riding.
    Disagree with you, 65 hard miles with intervals will beat any short interval session.
  • DaSyDaSy Posts: 599
    Infamous wrote:
    Disagree with you, 65 hard miles with intervals will beat any short interval session.

    Whatever works for you, I know that I couldn't complete a 65 mile ride and do the type of intervals I want to do.
    Complicating matters since 1965
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