Cycling and Class

12467

Comments

  • artaxerxes
    artaxerxes Posts: 612
    Can you elaborate on what you said? I'm not sure what you mean.

    In my experience, people who have been to university are generally more
    - open minded to other cultures
    - likely to maintain links and friendships across the world (for example in from my degree, I'm still in touch with people from Africa, Middle East, Europe and East Asia)
    - enjoy the process of learning for learning's sake
    - more likely to have shared interests after spending 3 to 4 years together during their formative years

    As I said, this is just my experience with no scientific data to back it up.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    edited May 2009
    Rockbuddy wrote:
    linoue wrote:
    In my limited experience the biggest difference in worldview and attitude is between those who have been to university, and those who haven't.

    +1 I would have to agree, university changed my attitude to alot of things. This is most noticable when I go back up to Yorkshire to seem the family, non of whom have attended any higher education establishments. I cringe at some of the things they come out with :oops: Still you can take the boy outta Yorkshire but not Yorkshire outta da boy :wink:

    AND
    In my experience, people who have been to university are generally more
    - open minded to other cultures
    - likely to maintain links and friendships across the world (for example in from my degree, I'm still in touch with people from Africa, Middle East, Europe and East Asia)
    - enjoy the process of learning for learning's sake
    - more likely to have shared interests after spending 3 to 4 years together during their formative years

    As I said, this is just my experience with no scientific data to back it up.

    I strongly disagree with the three posts above.

    I know many people far more intelligent than I who either chose not to finish Uni, not to go to Uni or who weren't financially able to go. My girlfriend didn't go to University, she's a Lawyer, she also took time off to go travelling, including time in Africa to help children in Swaziland and then went on to South America and Thailand. LiT didn't finish Uni and she is multi-lingual, family members of mine didn't go to Uni and own several properties in this country and others - there are more examples.

    Just because a person hasn't got a Degree doesn't mean they are less than, not as intelligent, wise, experienced or as Worldly as those that do have Degree's. On the contary I find many Graduates, Post-grads, Doctors and whatever to be pompous at the fact that they have achieved but as equally ignorant as other ignorant people who didn't go to Uni.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Stuey01
    Stuey01 Posts: 1,273
    I don't think anyone said that people who didn't go to uni were any less intelligent than those that did, or did I miss that?
    Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    Class is based on your upbringing and has nothing you do with your own achievements or otherwise IMHO.

    If I had not gone to Uni, I would still be middle class - why? Because I was brought up in Richmond, reading the Guardian and eating 'supper' around a table every evening. My family holidays were in the South of France not Spain etc.

    I now live in Streatham and could change jobs and work as a plumber or something but I will always be middle*!

    *the upper end of middle :wink:
  • Rockbuddy
    Rockbuddy Posts: 243
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:
    linoue wrote:
    In my limited experience the biggest difference in worldview and attitude is between those who have been to university, and those who haven't.

    +1 I would have to agree, university changed my attitude to alot of things. This is most noticable when I go back up to Yorkshire to seem the family, non of whom have attended any higher education establishments. I cringe at some of the things they come out with :oops: Still you can take the boy outta Yorkshire but not Yorkshire outta da boy :wink:

    I strongly disagree with the two posts above.

    I know many people far more intelligent than I who either chose not to finish Uni, not to go to Uni or who weren't financially able to go. My girlfriend didn't go to University, she's a Lawyer. LiT didn't finish Uni and she is multi-lingual, family members of mine didn't go to Uni and own several properties in this country and others.

    Just because a person hasn't got a Degree doesn't mean they are less than, not as intelligent, wise, experienced or as Worldly as those that do have Degree's. On the contary I find many Graduates, Post-grads, Doctors and whatever to be pompous at the fact that they have achieved but as equally ignorant as other ignorant people who didn't go to Uni.

    As always DDD you missed the point, I am not looking down on people who didn't go to uni and I said nothing about intelligence, it's about experience. I wouldn't consider myself any more intelligent than people who did not attend uni, just took a different path in life. There are many carriers that do not need a uni education but do need intelligence. However, going to uni really opened my eyes to the world around me. Coming from a rural town I had honestly met very few people from different backgrounds to myself, including different religions, races and other countrties. 8 years of uni (yes gluten for punishment) in three different cities gave me the chance to experience a lot of things I never would have having not gone to university. Please don't turn this into something it's not, like I said non of my family have had a uni education but they ALL have my respect and love just the same as always :D

    EDIT: I must add that worldly experience is worldy experience depspite going to uni or not. What I am getting at is the people I know that didn't attend uni haven't really left my home town or travelled much. I'm sure you know loads of people who have but I don't and I was talking about my experience no-one elses.
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    edited May 2009
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Always Tyred wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Hmmmm, well I went, but then dropped out in my second year.

    Where does that position me?
    What, you could afford to drop out? You must be posh then.

    Hmmmm? Don't understand... why does dropping out cost money?
    Where's Greg T when you need him to provide a Chumley-Warneresque explanation?

    Two possibilities you (a) got a job offer so good you left immediately (b) went back home and pondered what to do for a while. If (a) oops, oh well, probably a good idea in a property boom and a bull market if (b) then either (b)(i) your parents were livid because you were cluttering up their tiny council house and all their hard work to scrimp and save enough to allow you to go in the first place was wasted, or (b)(ii) they were very supportive, didn'd really mind and told the cleaners to prepare the east wing for a long term guest.

    I might be exaggerating a little, and/or deliberately missing out a substantial middle ground. But then that's my role here.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    I just want to take this moment to point out that I don't particularly care about a persons background, how much money they earn, whether they went to Uni, what they wear, what car they drive, where they go on holiday, what watch they have on their wrist, what music they listen to, how many languages they speak, what they've achieved in life etc.

    All I care about, all I have ever cared about is the person behind all that surface layer social conditioning.

    In the end all of the above is secondary to the person you are. Who you are (and not what you have), how you live your life, view yourself, treat, interact and look upon others says more about you than anything else IMO.

    I sit on the left.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    DDD - word of advice: don't EVER tell a girl she has a nice personality or anything like that. In the first, second, and possibly the third instance, she only wants to hear from you that she's hot, okay?
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    edited May 2009
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    As always DDD you missed the point

    Firstly, I don't always miss the point.

    Secondly, because I'm in the mood.
    EDIT: I must add that worldly experience is worldy experience depspite going to uni or not. What I am getting at is the people I know that didn't attend uni haven't really left my home town or travelled much. I'm sure you know loads of people who have but I don't and I was talking about my experience no-one elses.

    Wouldn't this suggest that despite going to Uni your own experiences are limited and in and of itself moot your entire point?

    "The World doesn't exit its just what you make of it" - My first Business Psychology Lecture. :wink:

    I get what you are saying, truly and respect your view.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Rockbuddy
    Rockbuddy Posts: 243
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    I just want to take this moment to point out that I don't particularly care about a persons background, how much money they earn, whether they went to Uni, what they wear, what car they drive, where they go on holiday, what watch they have on their wrist, what music they listen to, how many languages they speak, what they've achieved in life etc.

    All I care about, all I have ever cared about is the person behind all that surface layer social conditioning.

    In the end all of the above is secondary to the person you are. Who you are (and not what you have), how you live your life, view yourself, treat, interact and look upon others says more about you than anything else IMO.

    I sit on the left.

    SO, why'd ya start the ruddy thread then??? Or am I missing your point as usual :? I just feel so used... :wink:
  • gklau
    gklau Posts: 3
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:
    linoue wrote:
    In my limited experience the biggest difference in worldview and attitude is between those who have been to university, and those who haven't.

    My girlfriend didn't go to University, she's a Lawyer, she also took time off to go travelling, including time in Africa to help children in Swaziland and then went on to South America and Thailand.

    How do you become a lawyer without going to Uni?
  • artaxerxes
    artaxerxes Posts: 612
    I strongly disagree with the two posts above.

    I know many people far more intelligent than I who either chose not to finish Uni, not to go to Uni or who weren't financially able to go. My girlfriend didn't go to University, she's a Lawyer. LiT didn't finish Uni and she is multi-lingual, family members of mine didn't go to Uni and own several properties in this country and others.

    Just because a person hasn't got a Degree doesn't mean they are less than, not as intelligent, wise, experienced or as Worldly as those that do have Degree's. On the contary I find many Graduates, Post-grads, Doctors and whatever to be pompous at the fact that they have achieved but as equally ignorant as other ignorant people who didn't go to Uni.

    Thats why I put in the disclaimer 'in my limited experience', and to be honest, your experiences are also limited. None of our views are anything other than anecdotal.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Always Tyred wrote:
    DDD - word of advice: don't EVER tell a girl she has a nice personality or anything like that. In the first, second, and possibly the third instance, she only wants to hear from you that she's hot, okay?

    Ah young Always Tyred

    Rule no. 102
    "Rules and values are never absolute."
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Always Tyred wrote:
    DDD - word of advice: don't EVER tell a girl she has a nice personality or anything like that. In the first, second, and possibly the third instance, she only wants to hear from you that she's hot, okay?

    Ah young Always Tyred

    Rule no. 102
    "Rules and values are never absolute."
    No, seriously, expounding the virtues of a girl's personality is just asking for trouble, unless you start the sentence with some reference to how hot she is. Trust me on this.

    That bird from Britain's got talent. Lovely person. Nuff said.
  • de_sisti
    de_sisti Posts: 1,283
    linoue wrote:
    Can you elaborate on what you said? I'm not sure what you mean.

    In my experience, people who have been to university are generally more
    - open minded to other cultures
    - likely to maintain links and friendships across the world (for example in from my degree, I'm still in touch with people from Africa, Middle East, Europe and East Asia)
    - enjoy the process of learning for learning's sake
    - more likely to have shared interests after spending 3 to 4 years together during their formative years

    As I said, this is just my experience with no scientific data to back it up.

    I didn't go to uni but (imo) have the attributes mentioned above. I do however think I've
    benefited from living in different parts of the country (Manchester (brought up there), various
    RAF bases home and abroad, Taunton, Scarborough and Cheltenham).
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Always Tyred wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Always Tyred wrote:
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Hmmmm, well I went, but then dropped out in my second year.

    Where does that position me?
    What, you could afford to drop out? You must be posh then.

    Hmmmm? Don't understand... why does dropping out cost money?
    Where's Greg T when you need him to provide a Chumley-Warneresque explanation?

    Two possibilities you (a) got a job offer so good you left immediately (b) went back home and pondered what to do for a while. If (a) oops, oh well, probably a good idea in a property boom and a bull market if (b) then either (b)(i) your parents were livid because you were cluttering up their tiny council house and all their hard work to scrimp and save enough to allow you to go in the first place was wasted, or (b)(ii) they were very supportive, didn'd really mind and told the cleaners to prepare the east wing for a long term guest.

    I might be exaggerating a little, and/or deliberately missing out a substantial middle ground. But then that's my role here.

    Well, the east wing needed a good going over anyway, whether I was coming home or not... :wink:
    FCN 7/1
    Viner Maxima, Tifosi CK7, Giant Bowery, Old commuter.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    Always Tyred wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Always Tyred wrote:
    DDD - word of advice: don't EVER tell a girl she has a nice personality or anything like that. In the first, second, and possibly the third instance, she only wants to hear from you that she's hot, okay?

    Ah young Always Tyred

    Rule no. 102
    "Rules and values are never absolute."
    No, seriously, expounding the virtues of a girl's personality is just asking for trouble, unless you start the sentence with some reference to how hot she is. Trust me on this.

    That bird from Britain's got talent. Lovely person. Nuff said.

    When men talk about a woman's personality it is 99.9% of the time a euphemism.
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    maander wrote:
    linoue wrote:
    Can you elaborate on what you said? I'm not sure what you mean.

    In my experience, people who have been to university are generally more
    - open minded to other cultures
    - likely to maintain links and friendships across the world (for example in from my degree, I'm still in touch with people from Africa, Middle East, Europe and East Asia)
    - enjoy the process of learning for learning's sake
    - more likely to have shared interests after spending 3 to 4 years together during their formative years

    As I said, this is just my experience with no scientific data to back it up.

    I didn't go to uni but (imo) have the attributes mentioned above. I do however think I've
    benefited from living in different parts of the country (Manchester (brought up there), various
    RAF bases home and abroad, Taunton, Scarborough and Cheltenham).
    Whereas I spent about a decade at Uni and I'm completely narrow minded and sick of learning stuff.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    edited May 2009
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    SO, why'd ya start the ruddy thread then??? Or am I missing your point as usual :? I just feel so used... :wink:

    I have my values but I am able to look an take on board the values of others, its how I learn and grow.

    To be honest I started this thread because in my experience everyone else I've met who cycles is either Posh/middle/upper class or tyring to be. I then summised that cycling as a hobby is in and of itself (today's phrase) expensive and I began to wonder if the cost was restrictive to less afluent people.

    Also at the pub on Monday LiT said she was right winged and then on Tuesday Biodino asked me if my phrase was "youth speak" I began to wonder if I would ever truly fit in and be myself or if there were any working class people like me who enjoyed cycling... :oops:

    Flawed overly sensitve rational but a great thread.
    How do you become a lawyer without going to Uni?

    Dedication and a never say die attitude. Also working for a Law firm helps.
    Thats why I put in the disclaimer 'in my limited experience', and to be honest, your experiences are also limited. None of our views are anything other than anecdotal.

    Define limited experience when an individual can only have a one life experience through a singular perspective. - I'm on philosophical fire today!!!
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Stuey01
    Stuey01 Posts: 1,273
    gklau wrote:

    How do you become a lawyer without going to Uni?

    Open Uni, evening course?

    having a degree and "going to uni" are not mutually inclusive (depending on your definition of "going to uni").

    If you can be a lawyer without a degree then I'd like to know how that works.
    Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur
  • Rockbuddy
    Rockbuddy Posts: 243
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    As always DDD you missed the point

    Firstly, I don't always miss the point.

    Secondly, because I'm in the mood.
    EDIT: I must add that worldly experience is worldy experience depspite going to uni or not. What I am getting at is the people I know that didn't attend uni haven't really left my home town or travelled much. I'm sure you know loads of people who have but I don't and I was talking about my experience no-one elses.

    Wouldn't this suggest that despite going to Uni your own experiences are limited and in and of itself moot your entire point?

    "The World doesn't exit its just what you make of it" - My first Business Psychology Lecture. :wink:

    I get what you are saying, truly and respect your view.

    Unfortunately I seem to read the posts where you do miss the point as above banging on about itellegance and the like without it being mentioned. I think it's been said before that you are quite passionate and steam into threads head first. Me thinks you love to argue, but then I must also or I would have let it go at your last line :wink:

    Anyways, surely my experience is as valid as the next persons as we can only represent what we know!? But I think you know that already and just like to add to the controversy :D
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    SO, why'd ya start the ruddy thread then??? Or am I missing your point as usual :? I just feel so used... :wink:

    I have my values but I am able to look an take on board the values of others, its how I learn and grow.

    To be honest I started this thread because in my experience everyone else I've met who cycles is either Posh/middle/upper class or tyring to be. I then summised that cycling as a hobby is in and of itself (today's phrase) expensive and I began to wonder if the cost was restrictive to less afluent people.

    Also at the pub on Monday LiT said she was right winged and then on Tuesday Biodino asked me if my phrase was "youth speak" I began to wonder if I would ever truly fit in and be myself or if there were any working class people like me who enjoyed cycling... :oops:

    Flawed overly sensitve rational but a great thread.

    Being right wing is uber un-posh - populated by provincial lower middle types and nouveaus! Grocers daughters etc :roll:
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    edited May 2009
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    SO, why'd ya start the ruddy thread then??? Or am I missing your point as usual :? I just feel so used... :wink:

    I have my values but I am able to look an take on board the values of others, its how I learn and grow.

    To be honest I started this thread because in my experience everyone else I've met who cycles is either Posh/middle/upper class or tyring to be. I then summised that cycling as a hobby is in and of itself (today's phrase) expensive and I began to wonder if the cost was restrictive to less afluent people.

    Also at the pub on Monday LiT said she was right winged and then on Tuesday Biodino asked me if my phrase was "youth speak" I began to wonder if I would ever truly fit in and be myself or if there were any working class people like me who enjoyed cycling... :oops:

    Flawed overly sensitve rational but a great thread.

    Being right wing is uber un-posh - populated by provincial lower middle types and nouveaus! Grocers daughters etc :roll:

    :lol::lol:

    Another pointer that you don't have to be posh to succeed.

    And I didn't say I was right wing, DDD, I said I was more right wing... as in more than, say, blondie. Which isn't hard. Bloody commies. :wink:

    I sit to the right of the middle certainly, but I'm not a racist @rse.
    FCN 7/1
    Viner Maxima, Tifosi CK7, Giant Bowery, Old commuter.
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    If you are strongly left wing, or strongly right wing, you have probably failed to understand something properly.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    Unfortunately I seem to read the posts where you do miss the point as above banging on about itellegance and the like without it being mentioned.

    Intelligence is sub context for open mindedness and experience (IMO they are linked), which was being discussed.
    I think it's been said before that you are quite passionate and steam into threads head first. Me thinks you love to argue, but then I must also or I would have let it go at your last line :wink:

    Yep, Passion is my thing! I love to argue, I actually enjoy a good debate.
    Anyways, surely my experience is as valid as the next persons as we can only represent what we know!? But I think you know that already and just like to add to the controversy :D

    +1!!!
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Rockbuddy
    Rockbuddy Posts: 243
    edited May 2009
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    SO, why'd ya start the ruddy thread then??? Or am I missing your point as usual :? I just feel so used... :wink:

    I have my values but I am able to look an take on board the values of others, its how I learn and grow.

    To be honest I started this thread because in my experience everyone else I've met who cycles is either Posh/middle/upper class or tyring to be. I then summised that cycling as a hobby is in and of itself (today's phrase) expensive and I began to wonder if the cost was restrictive to less afluent people.

    Also at the pub on Monday LiT said she was right winged and then on Tuesday Biodino asked me if my phrase was "youth speak" I began to wonder if I would ever truly fit in and be myself or if there were any working class people like me who enjoyed cycling... :oops:

    Flawed overly sensitve rational but a great thread.

    I'm trying to keep up, while looking like I am working :wink:

    It seems your experience is limited to cyclists who are / seem "middle class" cycling for a hobby but what you have found out from this thread is that (although you've not met them) there are lots of cyclists from allsorts of backgrounds who love to cycle, to work and for a hobby.

    SO, in that sense the thread has been informative for you, no? :D

    Right I really must do some work now, otherwise the boss will start to notice, ruddy bikeradar :x
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Sewinman wrote:

    Being right wing is uber un-posh - populated by provincial lower middle types and nouveaus! Grocers daughters etc :roll:

    Depends on location doesn't it. Many "posh" city types make a big play of their "liberal" guardian reading politics. Country "posh" ie, landed gentry etc tend to be more right wing, telegraph readers etc. And by right wing I don't mean racist, daily mail reading BNP voting tossers, I simply mean your typical, traditional, Volvo estate driving tory voter.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    lost_in_thought wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rockbuddy wrote:

    SO, why'd ya start the ruddy thread then??? Or am I missing your point as usual :? I just feel so used... :wink:

    I have my values but I am able to look an take on board the values of others, its how I learn and grow.

    To be honest I started this thread because in my experience everyone else I've met who cycles is either Posh/middle/upper class or tyring to be. I then summised that cycling as a hobby is in and of itself (today's phrase) expensive and I began to wonder if the cost was restrictive to less afluent people.

    Also at the pub on Monday LiT said she was right winged and then on Tuesday Biodino asked me if my phrase was "youth speak" I began to wonder if I would ever truly fit in and be myself or if there were any working class people like me who enjoyed cycling... :oops:

    Flawed overly sensitve rational but a great thread.

    Being right wing is uber un-posh - populated by provincial lower middle types and nouveaus! Grocers daughters etc :roll:

    :lol::lol:

    Another pointer that you don't have to be posh to succeed.

    And I didn't say I was right wing, DDD, I said I was more right wing... as in more than, say, blondie. Which isn't hard. Bloody commies. :wink:

    :wink: I am surprised you did not pick me up on the lack of ' after the r though!

    Poshest thing is to be very privileged and then join the Labour party e.g Tony Benn - or the 2nd Viscount Stansgate!
  • passout
    passout Posts: 4,425
    Cycle racing in the UK was traditionally linked with the working classes - cycle clubs in Yorkshire and Lancashire have clear working class roots for example. Interestingly many cycle clubs were linked t politics (almost always socialism) and sometimes religion (usually non conformist protestants). it's far to say that cycling, as a sport, was linked to the 'self improving' working classes...at least in the North.

    Society today is different - everyone is moving to the centre, the muddle classes etc. So it is no suprise that cycling is largely a middle class pursuit - most people in the UK are middle class, depending on your definition. I guess it is more difficult for those living in areas of urban blight to get into the sport, or indeed many other sports. Despite this
    n the North are still clearly working class - the tradition does continue.
    'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.
  • Sewinman
    Sewinman Posts: 2,131
    jashburnham wrote:
    Sewinman wrote:

    Being right wing is uber un-posh - populated by provincial lower middle types and nouveaus! Grocers daughters etc :roll:

    Depends on location doesn't it. Many "posh" city types make a big play of their "liberal" guardian reading politics. Country "posh" ie, landed gentry etc tend to be more right wing, telegraph readers etc. And by right wing I don't mean racist, daily mail reading BNP voting tossers, I simply mean your typical, traditional, Volvo estate driving tory voter.

    That is true actually, but they do tend to be 'one nation' Tories who are not actually that right wing.

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