Stage 17 *spoiler*

FixUpLookSharp

redddraggon wrote:

FixUpLookSharp wrote:

I really dislike Evans. I hate his tactics and I hate the way he rides a bike.

You hate his tactics? And if he pulls on the yellow jersey on sunday on the podium, his (probably) dope free tactics would have won him the race. His only job is to win the Tour not pander to some small minded peoples entertainment.

IMO Evans was at the limit of his abilities, I don't think he could have done anymore but he is the strongest all rounder in the race, and the other riders need too beat him - why can't people understand that? Why should he attack and blow up and lose his chance to win the tour?

He doesn't look very elegant when he's pedalling out of the saddle though.

Hey, thanks for calling me small minded! You may not know this, but competitive sport is supposed to be entertaining. I'll never understand people who think victory is everything, irrespective of how dour and boring that victory is.

Oh, and I think I was pretty clear in my post that I felt it was up to the other riders to beat Evans.

Eurostar

redddraggon wrote:

IMO Evans was at the limit of his abilities, I don't think he could have done anymore but he is the strongest all rounder in the race, and the other riders need too beat him - why can't people understand that? Why should he attack and blow up and lose his chance to win the tour?
.

Couldn't agree more. He's been riding at the limit for years, but in the past the dopers made him look like a wheelsucker,so everyone slates him very unfairly. This year he's also been doing his best and was made to look a bit foolish by Sastre's attack. But Sastre's been saving himself for the whole tour, while his team have tried to take Evans apart day after day after day.

Evans is showing that he really is good enough to win a clean Tour - so give the guy some credit.

redddraggon

FixUpLookSharp wrote:

Hey, thanks for calling me small minded! You may not know this, but competitive sport is supposed to be entertaining. I'll never understand people who think victory is everything, irrespective of how dour and boring that victory is.

Sport is entertaining, but the individual competitors are there to win - it's not wrestling. Evans is not going to be earning more money for being "entertaining" is he?

FixUpLookSharp wrote:

Oh, and I think I was pretty clear in my post that I felt it was up to the other riders to beat Evans.

Only the first paragraph was a direct reply to you.

FixUpLookSharp

redddraggon wrote:

Sport is entertaining, but the individual competitors are there to win - it's not wrestling. Evans is not going to be earning more money for being "entertaining" is he?

A winner won't get paid anymore to be entertaining, but if people stop watching a sport because it has become boring, then you can bet the winner will be paid less. Hasn't the Tour always been about tweaking the rules and the stages to guarantee the most entertaining race possible? I'm not saying Evans is making cycling boring, but simply that professional sport is about entertainment, first and foremost, and if a sport isn't entertaining or exciting then...

For the record, I was trying, maybe in a backhanded way, to give Evans his due. I can't stand watching him ride a bike, and I hope he doesn't win, but the other teams have just not been able to shake him. So yes, he'll probably win, and he'll have ridden a great race. But, to many, it will have been a boring victory.

redddraggon

FixUpLookSharp wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Sport is entertaining, but the individual competitors are there to win - it's not wrestling. Evans is not going to be earning more money for being "entertaining" is he?

A winner won't get paid anymore to be entertaining, but if people stop watching a sport because it has become boring, then you can bet the winner will be paid less. Hasn't the Tour always been about tweaking the rules and the stages to guarantee the most entertaining race possible? I'm not saying Evans is making cycling boring, but simply that professional sport is about entertainment, first and foremost, and if a sport isn't entertaining or exciting then....

Evans can only race the course in front of him - it's upto the organisers to make it exciting. If they changed the style of the route Evans would have to adapt or fail.

Look what the organisers did with the Giro - the fans like the Plan de Corones didn't they? I wouldn't have said Contador was "exciting" at the Giro.....but all the fans seemed to love him.

portuguese mike

FixUpLookSharp wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Sport is entertaining, but the individual competitors are there to win - it's not wrestling. Evans is not going to be earning more money for being "entertaining" is he?

A winner won't get paid anymore to be entertaining, but if people stop watching a sport because it has become boring, then you can bet the winner will be paid less. Hasn't the Tour always been about tweaking the rules and the stages to guarantee the most entertaining race possible? I'm not saying Evans is making cycling boring, but simply that professional sport is about entertainment, first and foremost, and if a sport isn't entertaining or exciting then...

For the record, I was trying, maybe in a backhanded way, to give Evans his due. I can't stand watching him ride a bike, and I hope he doesn't win, but the other teams have just not been able to shake him. So yes, he'll probably win, and he'll have ridden a great race. But, to many, it will have been a boring victory.

Pretty much agree with all of that. If i was Evans i would ride the same way but that's not the point some of us are trying to make. Sport is entertainment and events like the tour de france in particular are very much the epitome of tragedy in the greek sense (portraying men as heroes; better than they really are i.e. an ideal). At its best its is a vicarious and cathartic experience and that is why the nature of victory is important to many people because it is about identifying, and aspiring to, the very best human qualities.

portuguese mike

redddraggon wrote:

FixUpLookSharp wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Sport is entertaining, but the individual competitors are there to win - it's not wrestling. Evans is not going to be earning more money for being "entertaining" is he?

A winner won't get paid anymore to be entertaining, but if people stop watching a sport because it has become boring, then you can bet the winner will be paid less. Hasn't the Tour always been about tweaking the rules and the stages to guarantee the most entertaining race possible? I'm not saying Evans is making cycling boring, but simply that professional sport is about entertainment, first and foremost, and if a sport isn't entertaining or exciting then....

Evans can only race the course in front of him - it's upto the organisers to make it exciting. If they changed the style of the route Evans would have to adapt or fail.

Look what the organisers did with the Giro - the fans like the Plan de Corones didn't they? I wouldn't have said Contador was "exciting" at the Giro.....but all the fans seemed to love him.

Because if he really was sunning himself on a beach the week before rocking up to win a grand tour then that is both an incredible achievement and lets face it pretty bloody cool

anagallis_arvensis

Given Cadel's team and his desire to actually win the tour what else could he have done?

I cant stand his look on the bike and would love to see an attack but I can only admire his one man stand against a supremly strong CSC.

donrhummy

Evans did a good job today, not just wheel sucking but actually answering a bunch of attacks. That said, if Sastre hadn't been so far out in front, I think the Schlecks would have made a bunch more attacks. Once Sastre built a 1 minute lead, their attacks stopped and Frank started following Evans' wheel (a GREAT teammate move by the way). So if Sastre hadn't gone ahead, I think Evans gets attacked so many times that they drop him. The question, though, is by how much. I think Andy could have put 3 minutes into Evans but Frank couldn't have done more than 1 minute. He didn't look strong enough to follow Andy's wheel.

And did anyone see ON ALPE D'HUEZ when Andy dropped back to get fuel/water and then rode back up to the front to give it to Frank?! Wow.

Kléber

redddraggon wrote:

it's upto the organisers to make it exciting. If they changed the style of the route Evans would have to adapt or fail.

Look what the organisers did with the Giro - the fans like the Plan de Corones didn't they? I wouldn't have said Contador was "exciting" at the Giro.....but all the fans seemed to love him.

No, I tend to find the riders make the race, not the route.

Besides, what is entertaining for fans can make for a silly race that humiliates the riders. You don't need a 25% slope for a good race.

If you want non-stop excitement, find a different sport or maybe look more towards the track. Road cycling is a slow sport, it's a gradual thing.

redddraggon

Kléber wrote:

If you want non-stop excitement, find a different sport or maybe look more towards the track. Road cycling is a slow sport, it's a gradual thing.

+1

DaveyL

I think we need to abandon this whole GC thing based on cumulative time. Instead we need a panel of bikeradar race forum "experts" sat at the top of the mountain, and they can hold up scoring cards based on style, panache and how the rider has done in the morning's interviews. Then we'd get a decent winner!

Gragi

Chapeau Evans. Great riding today and yesterday. I hope he does enough to win on Saturday, assuming nothing happens tomorrow and Friday.

I had a look at the TT results last year and Evans should do it based on the margin between him and Sastre... But... if you look at TTs in 2006 the margin between them is much closer... So I don't think it's in the bag yet.

towpath hacker

I must say I've never got the anti-Evans thing. The Tour is bloody tough and he grinds his way up the hills at his very limits - up the final climb today it was as though somebody had turned a tap on - such was the amount of sweat pouring off the man.

He isn't a great stylist in the saddle, but what does it matter - and when people say they want entertainment, do they want Ricco, Pantani, et al flying up a mountain-side whilst pumped full of cow pie!!

I'll be as interested in the TT on Saturday (and the other stages) as I was this one - and if he wins it great. If not, then so be it.

RichN95.

DaveyL wrote:

I think we need to abandon this whole GC thing based on cumulative time. Instead we need a panel of bikeradar race forum "experts" sat at the top of the mountain, and they can hold up scoring cards based on style, panache and how the rider has done in the morning's interviews. Then we'd get a decent winner!

I, for one, will be giving bonus points for spectacular crashes - double if it involves a dog.

FixUpLookSharp

towpath hacker wrote:

He isn't a great stylist in the saddle, but what does it matter - and when people say they want entertainment, do they want Ricco, Pantani, et al flying up a mountain-side whilst pumped full of cow pie!!.

False dichotomy.

liversedge

DaveyL wrote:

I think we need to abandon this whole GC thing based on cumulative time. Instead we need a panel of bikeradar race forum "experts" sat at the top of the mountain, and they can hold up scoring cards based on style, panache and how the rider has done in the morning's interviews. Then we'd get a decent winner!

Nah, I've got a better idea, why not give a time bonus to stage winners ....

RichN95.

liversedge wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

I think we need to abandon this whole GC thing based on cumulative time. Instead we need a panel of bikeradar race forum "experts" sat at the top of the mountain, and they can hold up scoring cards based on style, panache and how the rider has done in the morning's interviews. Then we'd get a decent winner!

Nah, I've got a better idea, why not give a time bonus to stage winners ....

OK, sort the time bonuses out for these stages:

Stage 6:

1 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott
2 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto
4 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank

Stage 10:

1 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott
2 Juan Jose Cobo Acebo (Spa) Saunier Duval - Scott
3 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
4 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner

You could have a situation of one rider being awarded the yellow jersey in Paris and then having awarded to someone else once the B samples come in.

I reckon this is why they got rid of them

liversedge

RichN95 wrote:

liversedge wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

I think we need to abandon this whole GC thing based on cumulative time. Instead we need a panel of bikeradar race forum "experts" sat at the top of the mountain, and they can hold up scoring cards based on style, panache and how the rider has done in the morning's interviews. Then we'd get a decent winner!

Nah, I've got a better idea, why not give a time bonus to stage winners ....

OK, sort the time bonuses out for these stages:

Stage 6:

1 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott
2 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne
3 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto
4 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank

Stage 10:

1 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott
2 Juan Jose Cobo Acebo (Spa) Saunier Duval - Scott
3 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
4 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner

You could have a situation of one rider being awarded the yellow jersey in Paris and then having awarded to someone else once the B samples come in.

I reckon this is why they got rid of them

I was more interested in encouraging riders to attack and go for stage wins rather than sitting in a group, sucking wheels and avoiding taking the initiative for an entire tour ... then picking up the maillot jaune in Paris. i.e. rewarding 'exciting' riding ...

I don't think the rules should be simplified because of doping ...

G man

Hats off to Evans today. He hung in there and led the chase after Sastre in the end. He looked like he'd given his all. Did anyone get the impression Valverde was working with the Schlek brothers, accelereting and decelerating to disrupt Evans' rythm with Sastre up the road? CSC haven't won the tour, and Evans hasn't lost it, so should be an interesting time trial. Whoever gets the quickest time for the tour wins - no time bonuses - no team time trial. If Evans wins he fully deserves it.

RichN95.

liversedge wrote:

I was more interested in encouraging riders to attack and go for stage wins rather than sitting in a group, sucking wheels and avoiding taking the initiative for an entire tour ... then picking up the maillot jaune in Paris. i.e. rewarding 'exciting' riding ...

I don't think the rules should be simplified because of doping ...

I realise that was what you meant, but after last year's close finish (it was only 3 seconds without bonuses) - they were an embarrasing accident waiting to happen.