Global warming update

Tourist Tony · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tourist Tony

Pepole may remember that I quoted the change in bus use in, er, Bonj's own Sheffield post-deregulation, but after a lot of denial he eventually admitted he wasn't born then so couldn't comment.
Of course, the only evidence Bonj ever accepts is the evidence that agrees with him. He's been told repeatedly, for example, that bus companies are self-financing, but as it falls off the flat edges of Bonjworld he won't accept it.

[Bonj logic]I think Bonj is paid by the car inductry[/bl]

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick
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It's a very devious ploy to avoid claims of subsidisation to pump shedloads of cash into it to start with, and then let it live off that for years to come. This is exactly what's happened with the buses.
They may not get a regular income from the government, but they get "help" here and "help" there. Need a new fleet? On the house. Need a new depot? Don't mention it.
If you think you can convince me that the fact that they don't get a direct monthly injection of hard cash straight out the public purse means they're not still milking the taxpayer, then you've got another thing coming.

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Did you fail to understand exactly what happened after deregulation?
Obviously so. After all, to you it is ancient history. Personally, I think Tesco's are funded by the taxpayer. Need a new lorry fleet? The taxpayer will shell out. Need a new greenfield shopping centre? HMG will pay for it.

Now doesn't that sound like tripe?
Because it is.
Come on, Bonj, figures re subsidies to bus companies please, and examples of free new bus fleets.

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

domd1979 · June 2007

You haven't proved anything, your supposed evidence is not anywhere near statistically significant. You've chosen to ignore the evidence put to you that shows that buses do not operate empty - as "you just don't want to accept this fact".

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Well I knew the accusations of me being biased would fly, but this is just because you've lost the argument. Buses are always empty or nearly empty, and I've proved it - you just don't want to accept this fact.
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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tourist Tony

Did you fail to understand exactly what happened after deregulation?
Obviously so. After all, to you it is ancient history. Personally, I think Tesco's are funded by the taxpayer. Need a new lorry fleet? The taxpayer will shell out. Need a new greenfield shopping centre? HMG will pay for it.

Now doesn't that sound like tripe?
Because it is.
Come on, Bonj, figures re subsidies to bus companies please, and examples of free new bus fleets.

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Because tesco's have NEVER been subsidised.
it's very easy for them to just change the method of subsidy, say that they're not subsidised any more because it makes political sense to have the public believe they're not subsidised, because most of the public are motorists.

They're not stupid Tone, they know that buses are a dead duck but that they need to keep them alive to keep the car-hating green lobby happy, who unfortunately are more representative in their militance than they are in number, and to keep the 'alternative' form of transport debate open. They know exactly how to make the public believe that they're not subsidised any more, and you're precisely the perfect example of the sort of person who's fallen hook, line and sinker for it. You don't 'understand more' than I do, you only understand what they want you to believe.
Anyhow subsidised or not, they're still ALWAYS empty. They can't possibly make a profit, there's never anybody on them. As I've proved, but that you've elected to ignore.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

You haven't proved anything, your supposed evidence is not anywhere near statistically significant. You've chosen to ignore the evidence put to you that shows that buses do not operate empty - as "you just don't want to accept this fact".

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Well I knew the accusations of me being biased would fly, but this is just because you've lost the argument. Buses are always empty or nearly empty, and I've proved it - you just don't want to accept this fact.
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Why do you INSIST on top posting, i.e. posting your text above the text that you're quoting?
Do you think it makes you 'indervidjewal'? Do you think you're in fact so special that convention doesn't apply to you?
You must do it deliberately, because when you click 'quote', the cursor insertion point appears at the end, not at the start.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

You haven't proved anything, your supposed evidence is not anywhere near statistically significant. You've chosen to ignore the evidence put to you that shows that buses do not operate empty - as "you just don't want to accept this fact".
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I went out and took photos of the first buses I saw, that's a random sample. Therefore it is statistically valid.

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domd1979 · June 2007

Nothing to do with "green lobbies" - towns and cities, and society, could not function properly without the public transport network. This is especially true in the large conurbations.

Well, they do make a profit - look at the accounts for the likes of Arriva, Stagecoach, First, Go Ahead, and National Express on their website. Except you won't because that'll show they're making a nice profit.

You've "proved" nothing so far.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
They're not stupid Tone, they know that buses are a dead duck but that they need to keep them alive to keep the car-hating green lobby happy, who unfortunately are more representative in their militance than they are in number, and to keep the 'alternative' form of transport debate open. They know exactly how to make the public believe that they're not subsidised any more, and you're precisely the perfect example of the sort of person who's fallen hook, line and sinker for it. You don't 'understand more' than I do, you only understand what they want you to believe.
Anyhow subsidised or not, they're still ALWAYS empty. They can't possibly make a profit, there's never anybody on them. As I've proved, but that you've elected to ignore.
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domd1979 · June 2007

Your "random" sample, as a proportion of all the bus journeys in Sheffield is too small to be statistically significant.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

You haven't proved anything, your supposed evidence is not anywhere near statistically significant. You've chosen to ignore the evidence put to you that shows that buses do not operate empty - as "you just don't want to accept this fact".
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I went out and took photos of the first buses I saw, that's a random sample. Therefore it is statistically valid.

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domd1979 · June 2007

?

A random and pointless diversion away from the discussion, because its not going your way. Your assertions about public transport are wrong, the evidence shows you are wrong.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Why do you INSIST on top posting, i.e. posting your text above the text that you're quoting?
Do you think it makes you 'indervidjewal'? Do you think you're in fact so special that convention doesn't apply to you?
You must do it deliberately, because when you click 'quote', the cursor insertion point appears at the end, not at the start.
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marinyork · June 2007

I think this paragraph pretty much sums up everything. Buses are kept going because to keep the car-hating green lobby happy, that's so funny!! This lobby group must be one of the most powerful and sinister groups on earth, how come we don't hear much about them?

I still don't agree with you about the 3 people per bus. On one of the photos I spot more people than you claim. Anyway my mother regularly uses buses in sheffield, if there are all these empty buses knocking around please use your magical powers to send them upto her end. I know someone else who now prefers to cycle into town as their bus service has got rerouted and become much more crowded. The 120 is an oddity though, can you think of some reasons why it might not get that used? The clue is in the destination [;)].

[/quote] Originally posted by bonj

They're not stupid Tone, they know that buses are a dead duck but that they need to keep them alive to keep the car-hating green lobby happy, who unfortunately are more representative in their militance than they are in number, and to keep the 'alternative' form of transport debate open. They know exactly how to make the public believe that they're not subsidised any more, and you're precisely the perfect example of the sort of person who's fallen hook, line and sinker for it. You don't 'understand more' than I do, you only understand what they want you to believe.

[/quote]

Tourist Tony · June 2007

Bonj, can I interest you in buying the Tower of London? It's ata a special knock-down price, as we want to keep it secret from the rest of the world. You are one of an elite 60 million people we also trust to keep the secret of subsidised bus companies.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

A long rant about how giant lizards are really running the planet and turning it into Iguana Heaven...
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If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

Nothing to do with "green lobbies" - towns and cities, and society, could not function properly without the public transport network. This is especially true in the large conurbations.
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This just simply isn't the case.
I can think of many adjectives to describe buses, but 'essential' isn't one of them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

Well, they do make a profit - look at the accounts for the likes of Arriva, Stagecoach, First, Go Ahead, and National Express on their website. Except you won't because that'll show they're making a nice profit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well they will SAY that they're making a profit. Look at Enron's accounts and it'll say it 'made a profit'. The fact is though it borrowed it off banks. The difference with buses is it's legal in that the operating environment is handed to them on a plate by the government, it's just kept quiet how much of taxpayer's money is needed to prop up the 'industry'.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

?

A random and pointless diversion away from the discussion, because its not going your way. Your assertions about public transport are wrong, the evidence shows you are wrong.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Why do you INSIST on top posting, i.e. posting your text above the text that you're quoting?
Do you think it makes you 'indervidjewal'? Do you think you're in fact so special that convention doesn't apply to you?
You must do it deliberately, because when you click 'quote', the cursor insertion point appears at the end, not at the start.
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NO-ONE else does it!

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by marinyork

I still don't agree with you about the 3 people per bus. On one of the photos I spot more people than you claim.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But you're not so sure of it you're willing to point out which one, though....nah. Course you're not flower.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by marinyork

Anyway my mother regularly uses buses in sheffield, if there are all these empty buses knocking around please use your magical powers to send them upto her end. I know someone else who now prefers to cycle into town as their bus service has got rerouted and become much more crowded. The 120 is an oddity though, can you think of some reasons why it might not get that used? The clue is in the destination [;)].
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If they were a profit-making organisation, they wouldn't keep one on if it didn't take many passengers. The fact that they do for MOST of them PROVES that they're not a profit making organisation.

Another reason for the propping up of the bus industry by the government is the trade unions would whinge about job losses.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by marinyork

I still don't agree with you about the 3 people per bus.
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You can 'not agree' that black's darker than white sunshine but it'll still be true.

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Tourist Tony · June 2007

Pssst! Bonj!

Wanna buy a flying saucer?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

?

A random and pointless diversion away from the discussion, because its not going your way. Your assertions about public transport are wrong, the evidence shows you are wrong.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Why do you INSIST on top posting, i.e. posting your text above the text that you're quoting?
Do you think it makes you 'indervidjewal'? Do you think you're in fact so special that convention doesn't apply to you?
You must do it deliberately, because when you click 'quote', the cursor insertion point appears at the end, not at the start.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
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NO-ONE else does it!

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If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

Your "random" sample, as a proportion of all the bus journeys in Sheffield is too small to be statistically significant.

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It's only ever going to be "too small to be statistically insignificant" because I took them right in the city centre, where there's likely to be the most people on. Out in the suburbs there's even fewer. (If you can get even fewer than none.)

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tourist Tony

Pssst! Bonj!

Wanna buy a flying saucer?

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And yet again, we see that Tw*tty* Tone has nothing sensible to post, so resorts to childish gibberish.

*You can think it means 'Twitty' if you want!
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domd1979 · June 2007

2001 Census:

36% of households in Sheffield do not have a car.

19% of the working daytime population in Sheffield travel to work by bus.

Sample sizes don't come much bigger than the census...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

Nothing to do with "green lobbies" - towns and cities, and society, could not function properly without the public transport network. This is especially true in the large conurbations.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This just simply isn't the case.
I can think of many adjectives to describe buses, but 'essential' isn't one of them.
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domd1979 · June 2007

Let's see.... which to believe:

the signed off accounts of a major plc; or....

the opinion of someone who's incorrectly read the label on their pill bottle this morning, as to that company's financial state.

Difficult choice there bonj......

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
If they were a profit-making organisation, they wouldn't keep one on if it didn't take many passengers. The fact that they do for MOST of them PROVES that they're not a profit making organisation.

Another reason for the propping up of the bus industry by the government is the trade unions would whinge about job losses.
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marinyork · June 2007

Next time I'm in Sheffield bonj I'll take some photos of these buses in the suburbs that have fewer than none people on them. I love the idea that public transport isn't essential. How on earth would some parts of the population get mobility?

I'm actually quite pleased to hear the X78 is getting some investment since the link to rotherham has been a bit weak for sometime, sounds sane to me, unlike some of First's other investments e.g. FTR.

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

2001 Census:

36% of households in Sheffield do not have a car.

19% of the working daytime population in Sheffield travel to work by bus.

Sample sizes don't come much bigger than the census...

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19%, that's not much. They're probably only the ones that have got fed up of the congestion caused by bus lanes anyway. Oh, and by the way before you ask, yes I DO drive in bus lanes.

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mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Idiot

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

2001 Census:

36% of households in Sheffield do not have a car.

19% of the working daytime population in Sheffield travel to work by bus.

Sample sizes don't come much bigger than the census...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
19%, that's not much. They're probably only the ones that have got fed up of the congestion caused by bus lanes anyway. Oh, and by the way before you ask, yes I DO drive in bus lanes.

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And that 19% get taken to work 3 to each bus then, do they? Sounds luxurious!

(Edited for typo, lest the pedants' spot it! [;)])

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Well done. How did you manage to take photos of Mon-Fri peak-time buses when the challenge was only made at 10.30 last night?
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Ah, so you're saying people only ever use buses in peak times, now are you?
They're just as busy on saturday as they are in the week, if not busier.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, I'm not. The challenge was to take photos at Mon-Fri peak times. You failed. But you still stupidly photographed several buses with more than three passengers, which proves that you tell lies to try to win your argument.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

And, despite your best efforts -photographing buses which had just emptied and selective parts of buses, you still manage to prove yourself to be a liar. There are two double deckers in tyour photos with a fair few people on.
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Well I knew the accusations of me being biased would fly, but this is just because you've lost the argument. Buses are always empty or nearly empty, and I've proved it - you just don't want to accept this fact.
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Nope. You claimed that you've never seen a bus with more than three people on. And then you proved the opposite, and lost the argument. Now you're moving the goalposts again.

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What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

There are two double deckers in tyour photos with a fair few people on.
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If by 'a fair few' you mean 'five', then I'll give you that, there are possibly 5 on a couple of them. Whoop-ti-doo.

If you think there's as much as 10, then circle them. And you can't count people on the other side of the street that you can see through BOTH sides of the bus.
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you clearly can't count. There are more than five on at least two busus.

You claimed that there are never more than three.

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What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

domd1979 · June 2007

Apparently so...... Bonj is the expert on these matters.

As that 19% is 42,000 people, at bonj's occupancy rate of 3 per bus, that's 14,000 buses.

First South Yorkshire run 580 buses across their area of Sheffield, Doncaster, and Rotherham....

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones
And that 19% get taken to work 3 to each bus then, does they? Sounds luxurious!
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BigWomble · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

2001 Census:

36% of households in Sheffield do not have a car.

19% of the working daytime population in Sheffield travel to work by bus.

Sample sizes don't come much bigger than the census...

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19%, that's not much. They're probably only the ones that have got fed up of the congestion caused by bus lanes anyway. Oh, and by the way before you ask, yes I DO drive in bus lanes.

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Bus lanes don't cause congestion.

Ta - Arabic for moo-cow

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

you clearly can't count. There are more than five on at least two busus.

You claimed that there are never more than three.

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The fact that you haven't said which ones clearly proves that's a load of cobblers.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Well done. How did you manage to take photos of Mon-Fri peak-time buses when the challenge was only made at 10.30 last night?
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Ah, so you're saying people only ever use buses in peak times, now are you?
They're just as busy on saturday as they are in the week, if not busier.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, I'm not. The challenge was to take photos at Mon-Fri peak times. You failed. But you still stupidly photographed several buses with more than three passengers, which proves that you tell lies to try to win your argument.
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"THE" challeng- no, that was your challenge. I set out to prove that of a random sample of buses, lots have absolutely no-one on, and the average is usually about 3.
By stamping your feet and claiming that's invalid proves that you recognise that the only time the average number of people on a bus might just manage to top 5 is in peak times, and has to be a non-representative sample at that.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domd1979

Apparently so...... Bonj is the expert on these matters.

As that 19% is 42,000 people, at bonj's occupancy rate of 3 per bus, that's 14,000 buses.

First South Yorkshire run 580 buses across their area of Sheffield, Doncaster, and Rotherham....

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Are you sure it was 19%, or 0.19%? Think you've got your decimal points in the wrong place there, lad.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Nope. You claimed that you've never seen a bus with more than three people on. And then you proved the opposite, and lost the argument. Now you're moving the goalposts again.

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I didn't say I've NEVER seen one with more than 3 people on, I said I'd never seen one full, and the average number of people I see on buses is about 3.

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Global warming update

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