Global warming update

simoncp · June 2007

To me its a simple case of someone growing up. George has now got a wife and baby, so all the idealism of adolescence, albeit in his case a very extended and public adolescence, now takes a poor second place to the realities of family life. A very familiar story these days - the country is full of ex-greens, ex-vegetarians, ex-revolutionary socialists and ex-ban the bomb types who turn into the same middle-aged, middle-class parents as everyone else.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

To me its a simple case of someone growing up. George has now got a wife and baby, so all the idealism of adolescence, albeit in his case a very extended and public adolescence, now takes a poor second place to the realities of family life. A very familiar story these days - the country is full of ex-greens, ex-vegetarians, ex-revolutionary socialists and ex-ban the bomb types who turn into the same middle-aged, middle-class parents as everyone else.

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Largely agree with that, idealism does tend to reduce as people age. Not sure vegetarianism is being idealistic but know what you are saying.
It is sad when people cling to things they thought were right when they were 16 without learning anything of life/the world around them which will 'mature' their views, eh redcogs[:)]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BigWomble

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peyote

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smokin Joe

According to a financial expert interviewed on Radio 2, total tax revenue generated by all things automotive is 50 billion per annum. Add to that all the jobs that depend on cars, from producing them to writing tickets and sticking them on the windscreen and the automobile is a powerful contributer to the economy. All the leading economies have strong automobile industries, if your claim was true that would not be the case.

I'm afraid the Utopian dream that the wealth generated could be replicated by people producing bicycles and fixing headsets is just pie in the sky.
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Well, if you're going to ignore all the negative effects and erect straw man arguments for those who disagree with you, then of course you're going to be right!

Me, I prefer to view things a bit more objectively, sure they contribute in some ways to the economy, but the detract massively more than they contribute. The health impact, the social decay, the pollution, environmental damage. I suspect we haven't even seen the true losses associated with this particular industry yet.
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Car industries are created to meet the demand for cars from a wealthy society, and not vice versa. As for cars propping up the economy, we used to have wall-to-wall horses. They are now gone, but the economy has never been stronger. If there were no more cars (unlikely), people would spend the money on something else. Indeed, this is the problem with the idea of banning things, so that we can deal with global warming. People will spend the money on other things, which might have a worse impact.

Ta - Arabic for moo-cow
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That shows a lack of understanding of economics that is childishly laughable. To spend money you have to make it, and with one of the worlds major money producers gone, the money to spend on these "other things" would not be there. You can't just print more you know, that's been tried and doesn't work.

Nobody ever got laid because they were using Shimano

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
It is sad when people cling to things they thought were right when they were 16 without learning anything of life/the world around them which will 'mature' their views, eh redcogs[:)]
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When i was 16 Joe Sacco a major imperialist war in IndoChina was being waged by the worlds most powerful nation, the USA, which was killing and maiming a generation of innocent Vietnamese people.

Across the world, including here, exploitation of working people was the norm, very significant poverty, disease and industrial injury made millions die prematurely, black people and women were hugely discriminated against, famine, acute poverty and the early grave was the common experience for millions of men women and children.

Underneath all that, benefiting from it, was a numerically tiny unelected, unaccountable global junta of fabulously rich parasitical thugs often referred to as the 'elite'. That ruling class has continued to organise and shape the world very much in its own interests ever since, and today, we are still confronted by the same issues of the rich prospering at the expense of the poor, wars, famine, and an ever increasing gap between those at the 'top', and the rest of us.

If it was right for me to be disturbed into resisting the iniquities of capitalism in 1967, then why wouldn't it be right 40 years later, when many of the above problems still remain, and some have gotten much worse?

please look up to the stars.. ***

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

How is diesel better for the environment than petrol?
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It isn't, apart from the fact you use less of it...
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So you use less? (Except that you don't, as you went from a car to a box van).

But the question is, is diesel more polluting even though you may use less of it?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

To me its a simple case of someone growing up. George has now got a wife and baby, so all the idealism of adolescence, albeit in his case a very extended and public adolescence, now takes a poor second place to the realities of family life. A very familiar story these days - the country is full of ex-greens, ex-vegetarians, ex-revolutionary socialists and ex-ban the bomb types who turn into the same middle-aged, middle-class parents as everyone else.
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Most things appear to be simple to you. I suspect this is why you have such trouble understanding complicated things... never mind, though, I am sure that one day you will grow out of your prejudiced and judgemental character and mature into someone with a more subtle and inquiring mind...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Originally posted by domd1979

...not to mention the need to carry 86 passengers when there's never going to be more than 12.

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It's gone up from 3. Let's see how long it takes before you start telling the truth.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

andyoxon · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

I'm fulling intending to get through life without owning a car, but I'd never say 'never'. I've tried to arrange my life so that I don't need to, so far succesfully.

What George says does sound reasonable to some extent, and he's pretty open about his own misgivings - it's not as if he's trying to hide it... but he's going to open himself up to a lot of snide remarks from the kind of people who've never done anything useful in their lives.

Relationships change you too. In a relationship, there's two people (at least) and it's difficult (ethically and practically) to impose your personal ethics on someone. It seems pretty clear here that this aspect is pretty central to this decision. I can understand that too.

The one thing that puzzles me is why simoncp thinks this is news about global warming... is he one again failing to notice an ad-hominem argument? What exactly does this say about global warming, apart from maybe that our current transport system does not exactly facilitate ecologically sensible choices?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

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With the possible patter of tiny Flying Monkey feet will come the most pressure for owning a car - I'd say. The sheer amount of kit that needs to be transported has to be seen to be believed... But, if you can resist this, most other pressures should be a doddle to cope with. [;)]

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BigWomble

I think 'The Boss', you have a very cynical attitude towards buses! In a nutshell, cars journeys work like this ...

1) wiggle, wiggle, wiggle down the side roads towards the major road
2) down the major road
3) wiggle, wiggle, wiggle up the side roads to the destination.

The traditional bus only does part 2.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, the representation of what the bus actually does is more like:
1) wiggle, wiggle, wiggle down the side roads towards the major road
2) wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle wiggle, wiggle, wiggle down side roads to get where it could get in a fifth of the time on a major road
3) wiggle, wiggle, wiggle some more up the side roads to the destination.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BigWomble

So it is only of any use when the amount of wiggling at each end is small (~200yards). In the future, a new system, called DRT (demand responsive transport) could be introduced, which calls at people's homes along the way. It's a bit more expensive, as you'd expect.

In addition, there is a wait of approximately 1/2 the service interval.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
"DRT" as you so eloquently title it already exists. It's called a taxi.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BigWomble

Buses suit a lot of people, particularly those people going to and from the CBD as their commute. Some journeys, particularly non-radial journeys, will always be difficult by bus, and some places, where there are very few people like a village, are unlikely to see much of a bus service. I use a bus to get to work, and it's okay.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, it depends on what your definition of "a lot" is, but yes people going on radial journeys to and from the CBD may find a bus useful and should probably consider using it instead of a car. But why would they? This is the idea behind my suggestion that they should pay people to go on buses.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BigWomble

Buses need not be noisy. Electric, hybrid and trolley buses are very quiet. Buses need not be horrible, they can be very well presented if the bus company can be bothered. Buses need not be slow, there are ways of running efficient bus services. Buses need not run empty, this depends on the neighbourhood (single people/old people/families), service interval and cost. Buses reduce congestion. They count as 2 cars each, but carry more than 3 people each on average.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
They needn't be, but they often are! That's the point I'm making... Don't get me wrong I'm not having a pop at the concept of the bus in general, I'm having a pop at what buses are actually like now.

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redcogs · June 2007

Hey 'Monkey, whatsthis?!?

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

I'm actually on a bus as I write. A 15 mile trip. First 7 miles had 3 people on the bus including me. Next 8 miles the bus is crowded with people standing.
Buses need to almost run at a loss to be an effective means of transport otherwise they are not a practical replacement for cars.

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

That's because you want to go on a journey that private transport has created for you. The journey wan't there before private transport created it for you and it won't be there when private transport is no longer a viable option.

Think of your bus-less jorney as a small blip in man's tranport history.
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That's a new one! So explain how if I want to get from sheffield city centre where I live to hillsborough where I work, how that journey has been 'created' by private transport. Both of these commercial centres existed long before the advent of the motor car, yet I live in one and work in the other. Yet is there a convenient bus service between the two, which wouldn't involve me walking at least a quarter of the distance and which doesn't go round about 12 other districts first and stretch the journey out to about an hour? No. Well, not that I've seen anyway. If you can find me one on SYPTE's website I would consider using it*, but I haven't found it so far.
Or the journey to my mum's house in southwell, nottinghamshire. How has that journey been 'created by private transport'? Was southwell 'created' because its location is somewhere that's easy to get to by car? Or did it (and its school, the reason my family moved there) exist long before the motor car did? Yes, I think it did. Yet is there a convenient bus service between the two? No, I don't think there is.

*on the odd occasion when there was some reason for me not to cycle

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

To me its a simple case of someone growing up. George has now got a wife and baby, so all the idealism of adolescence, albeit in his case a very extended and public adolescence, now takes a poor second place to the realities of family life. A very familiar story these days - the country is full of ex-greens, ex-vegetarians, ex-revolutionary socialists and ex-ban the bomb types who turn into the same middle-aged, middle-class parents as everyone else.
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[:D]
Yes very true [;)]

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Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey
I am sure that one day you will grow out of your prejudiced and judgemental character and mature into someone with a more subtle and inquiring mind...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tsk tsk such touching nieviety fair brings a tear to the eye....[:)][;)]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

That's because you want to go on a journey that private transport has created for you. The journey wan't there before private transport created it for you and it won't be there when private transport is no longer a viable option.

Think of your bus-less jorney as a small blip in man's tranport history.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a new one! So explain how if I want to get from sheffield city centre where I live to hillsborough where I work, how that journey has been 'created' by private transport. Both of these commercial centres existed long before the advent of the motor car, yet I live in one and work in the other. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Funny. You were vociferously arguing the exact opposite just last week.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

So you use less? (Except that you don't, as you went from a car to a box van).
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A 'box' van?! You mean a luton? Nah - it's not one of those! It's only small. Why would I need a luton? A luton'd never fit in the multi-storey where I park it!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

But the question is, is diesel more polluting even though you may use less of it?
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No.

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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

So you use less? (Except that you don't, as you went from a car to a box van).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A 'box' van?! You mean a luton? Nah - it's not one of those! It's only small. Why would I need a luton? A luton'd never fit in the multi-storey where I park it!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Panel van then. Which uses more fuel than your car.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

But the question is, is diesel more polluting even though you may use less of it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No.
[/quote]

OK, so you know about the different emissions (with amounts) from diesel and petrol engines then?

Please tell...

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

To me its a simple case of someone growing up. George has now got a wife and baby, so all the idealism of adolescence, albeit in his case a very extended and public adolescence, now takes a poor second place to the realities of family life. A very familiar story these days - the country is full of ex-greens, ex-vegetarians, ex-revolutionary socialists and ex-ban the bomb types who turn into the same middle-aged, middle-class parents as everyone else.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[:D]
Yes very true [;)]

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[url][/url]http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/images/Ceramics Page/299-945.jpg[url][/url]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

That's because you want to go on a journey that private transport has created for you. The journey wan't there before private transport created it for you and it won't be there when private transport is no longer a viable option.

Think of your bus-less jorney as a small blip in man's tranport history.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a new one! So explain how if I want to get from sheffield city centre where I live to hillsborough where I work, how that journey has been 'created' by private transport. Both of these commercial centres existed long before the advent of the motor car, yet I live in one and work in the other. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Funny. You were vociferously arguing the exact opposite just last week.
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I was vociferously arguing that the ROADS had been created by private transport, which they have, largely. The places themselves (and hence the reason for the journey) hadn't! I would still need to make that journey even if cars hadn't forced the development of a convenient road on which to make it.
I think it can be concluded as this: He's probably right in that the journey as I know it has been created by private transport, but wrong in that the journey when defined simply as the start and end locations has been created by private motor transport, as it hasn't - I would still need to make the exact same journey by some other means if private transport didn't exist.
Penistone road is relatively new - it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for cars, in times gone by all they had was "the old road" (still signposted, which I think is still a road in places but mainly now just a sort of driveway in front of a load of warehouses interspersed with bits of grass and cyclepath, and which continues as green lane towards kelham island) and then you've got infirmary road higher up, which buses generally prefer anyway.

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Mister Paul · June 2007

I think that post speaks for itself.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Panel van then. Which uses more fuel than your car.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, it uses less fuel than my car. Which makes sense, as it's got a (slightly) smaller engine, and fewer cylinders, and isn't half as fast. Which proves you know precisely bugger all about the matter, so whether or not you think you know anything about the relative pollutancy of petrol and diesel, you clearly don't - so therefore there's probably not much point me trying to have an argument with you about it.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

I think that post speaks for itself.
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Which roughly translates as "OH yeah, damn - you're right, I can't think of a comeback, fair enough you win."

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andyoxon · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Hey 'Monkey, whatsthis?!?

please look up to the stars.. ***
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Redcogs - if this relates to my post - purely hypothetical you understand [:)]

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Hey 'Monkey, whatsthis?!?

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Redcogs - if this relates to my post - purely hypothetical you understand [:)]

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorry Andy, i thought i had missed out on some forum gossip re 'Monkey's family life. i agree though, in the absence of a decent integrated public transport network, cars become important once you have others to consider.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Originally posted by Mister Paul

...so whether or not you think you know anything about the relative pollutancy of petrol and diesel, you clearly don't - so therefore there's probably not much point me trying to have an argument with you about it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're right, I don't know anything about it. And I'm not making any claim that I do. Which is why I am asking you, who claims that diesel is less polluting than petrol, to share your knowledge on the relative pollutency of petrol and diesel. So go on then...

Oh, and for someone with a physics degree, you seem to have little knowledge of wind resistance.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

...NickM had the best idea for why there would be less cars on the road. People would only drive when necessary, in order to be higher up the queue when they really need a car. If I'm understanding him correctly, he suggested a system whereby the more you use a car, the lower down you are on the priority list for booking. So it would encourage you to only use a car when necessary and combat the exact problem that we've got - which is people using cars willy nilly.
And the gain therefore would be that although there would be the same amount of cars in total, there would be less of them being used at any one time. Therefore less congestion, less fuel depletion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A slight misunderstanding here; I'm suggesting that if people "only drive when necessary", we'll need fewer cars. Conversely, a system which gives priority to infrequent users could encourage people to consider their car use more carefully; but only if there are fewer cars in the system than at present.

This has benefits for motorists as well as non-motorists: less congestion when you do drive somewhere, so lower fuel costs and more prdictable arrival times. And lower blood pressure [:)]

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

You're right, I don't know anything about it. And I'm not making any claim that I do. Which is why I am asking you, who claims that diesel is less polluting than petrol, to share your knowledge on the relative pollutency of petrol and diesel. So go on then...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, I know there isn't a great deal of difference, otherwise we would have heard a lot more about it, and if diesel was that much more polluting than petrol I don't think old Georgie-boy* would have got a diesel car would he.
There may be a tiny bit of difference however.

I did once hear a statistic that apparently a diesel engine is 40% efficient whereas petrol is 25% efficient, i.e. in terms of percentage of chemical energy converted to kinetic.

*who claims to be a world expert on such matters and to be fair has probably spent more time learning about it and researching it than I could ever be bothered to

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Mister Paul · June 2007

So you don't know then. You make a claim, but can't back it up, other than with a few guesses.

Does anyone else know? Is burnt diesel more or less polluting than petrol?

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Oh, and for someone with a physics degree, you seem to have little knowledge of wind resistance.
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What's wind resistance got to do with it? Are you dissing my van on the basis of being unaerodynamic now, is that what this is about?

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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Oh, and for someone with a physics degree, you seem to have little knowledge of wind resistance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What's wind resistance got to do with it? Are you dissing my van on the basis of being unaerodynamic now, is that what this is about?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You said that your van was more economical because it was slower, had a smaller engine than your car, and was diesel. You made no consideration of the wind resistence.

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What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Global warming update

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