Global warming update

Mister Paul · June 2007

Bonj

How is diesel better for the environment than petrol?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

but he would have to expect a gentle lecture about why the working class is central to any worthwhile societal reforms.

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I'm sure he would listen attentively - after all, isn't his father Sir Raymond Monbiot, and aren't the Monbiots a French Ducal family who fled the French Revolution?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smokin Joe

And motoring provides a major boost to the economy, despite the bogus claims of the anti-car lobby.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's not true. It's subsidised and a major drain on the economy.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Count me (and millions of others) out of your car pool scheme thanks. I like the convenience of a car and I like driving cars.

Unknown · June 2007

I don't really like cars but have owned them in the past . I really don't see a problem . Does that mean I can't question excessive use of cars ?

http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/n ... index.aspx

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Apart from the fact that George is a global warming campaigner, and that he's been ousted as a hypocrite, it's not.
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'Outed' I believe is the word for which you're looking. And I'm glad you don't take the simoncp view of the world (that science of global warming can be dismissed because of the personal politics of what we do about it).

Interesting question though: is someone who alters their position slightly and is open about it, a hypocrite? I am rather suspicious of people who claim never to have changed their minds, even slightly, about anything - that would strike me as naive, dogmatic and even dangerous...

Is someone who has to make a choice between two things (in this case, a life relationship and being car free) a hypocrite for chosing one? If my wife wanted to life somewhere that meant we had to have a car, I'd probably put up with that for the sake of the relationship. It wouldn't mean I still couldn't legitimately see car culture as damaging. It's still possible to realise how collective, social bad results can result from a combination of normal personal decisions, politics and so on...

We're all hypocrits to some degree or other in someone's eyes. The important thing is whether on balance you do more good as a person or more bad. Even if Saddam Hussein was a cyclist, I still don't think you'd regard him as of overall benefit to the world. In contrast, George is a man who's done a lot of good, sometimes at considerable person risk. And he now owns a car. If there's anyone here who thinks they've done as much good as him, feel free to be superior. I can't.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Of course people can change their position and be open about it. But they must also accpet that they need to take back what they have been saying before and show accpetion that they may not have thought it through clearly.

ian_oli · June 2007

He had a choice...

Moving from Town to Country invariably ups your carbon footprint, more transport, more heating. If Welsh speaking was the object why not move to, say, Swansea - plenty of Welsh spoken there and big enough to have buses and the like and a decent train service.

This doesnt invalidate all he says but makes his self righteousness all the more irritating.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smokin Joe

I have a car because life would be inconvenient without one. If I could do without a car, I would still have one because I like driving.

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Joe sacco
Posted - 14/06/2007 : 12:32:35

Count me (and millions of others) out of your car pool scheme thanks. I like the convenience of a car and I like driving cars.

Me me me
self self self

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Canrider · June 2007

Could someone point me to where George Monbiot said no one should ever own a car, evereverever? It's just that The Boss's 'hypocrisy' argument is hinging on finding that precise statement..

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smokin Joe

I have a car because life would be inconvenient without one. If I could do without a car, I would still have one because I like driving.

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Joe sacco
Posted - 14/06/2007 : 12:32:35

Count me (and millions of others) out of your car pool scheme thanks. I like the convenience of a car and I like driving cars.

Me me me
self self self

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

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Guess you missed the millions os others in brackets there?

More a case of

us us us

With us being the majority. Looks like you are in the minority that don't want people to have cars. You are closer to "me me me" I think you'll find.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Canrider

Could someone point me to where George Monbiot said no one should ever own a car, evereverever? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is it true that he tried to write it in his Guardian column but it was edited out because all the senior people at the Guardian get cars with the jobs? [:0]

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

I'm sure he would listen attentively - after all, isn't his father Sir Raymond Monbiot, and aren't the Monbiots a French Ducal family who fled the French Revolution?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So the sins of the father are to be inherited?

Monbiot's personal, and aspects of his political character seem quite attractive in many ways. The survival of that family (assuming you are correct on their history) is probably the only positive to come out of one particular negative event (not the French Revolution, which was a thoroughly splendid event).

It goes to show that even when the comrades take their eye off the ball for a moment, allowing a few renegade aristos under the wire can have positive long term consequences, as long as their cause is just, ideas of liberty equality and fraternity can still prosper.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...us being the majority. Looks like you are in the minority that don't want people to have cars...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

...the feeble-minded majority whose pathetic little personalities would crumble without the weekly ritual of polishing their pride and joy wouldn't like it...
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Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...us being the majority. Looks like you are in the minority that don't want people to have cars...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

...the feeble-minded majority whose pathetic little personalities would crumble without the weekly ritual of polishing their pride and joy wouldn't like it...
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So?

You think the majority are feeble minded, they may well be, they are still the majority though aren't they.
The majority want to own cars, the minority don't want them to. Being in the minority is never fun.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

I'm sure he would listen attentively - after all, isn't his father Sir Raymond Monbiot, and aren't the Monbiots a French Ducal family who fled the French Revolution?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So the sins of the father are to be inherited?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not exactly, but you might find him squirming uncomfortably when you explain what you've got in line for the aristos. [;)]

redcogs · June 2007

i take a liberal approach in such matters.

Although i do worry that allowing the massed workers and peasants the use of a nice sharp blade could be regarded as a weakness in some right wing quarters..

;-)

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

i take a liberal approach in such matters.

Although i do worry that allowing the massed workers and peasants the use of a nice sharp blade could be regarded as a weakness in some right wing quarters..

;-)

please look up to the stars.. ***
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No problems round here, redders, they're a docile lot round here(rendered placid on S4C's "Pobol y Cym" and the local weed) and they only use the blades for harvesting crops under the watchful eyes of the overseers.

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

That sounds like a great idea, the only issue I'd have with it is WHERE would this 'pool' be?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't see why it needs to have any particular geographical location; why couldn't the locally available cars just be parked in the street - about 1 to every 5 houses? Our household's vehicle is frequently parked more than 5 houses away because of pressure on parking spaces anyway.
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Oh I see what you mean, so just have 'public' cars... yes, I can certainly see this being great in principle. Imagine how nice it would be to just be able to walk out into the street and get into any car you like that's available, not having to bother about security and whether it will be there when you get back....

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Access to cars could be by an electronic key; it wouldn't let you get in and drive away unless the system "knew" that you were the legitimate driver for that day. I seem to remember reading (in the interesting if hopelessly idealistic book "Car Sick" by Lynn Sloman) that there are a few such pioneering schemes in operation already.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ah, so you're planning on having the requirement to book one, rather than just get one that's free... that could work, but I think you'd have to 'ration' the booking, otherwise some people would just book one every day and hog it to try and make it as if they've always got their own personal one. You'd have to instead either have a fairly high booking fee (at least a tenner, possibly more) or alternatively, have only a certain amount of bookings per week/month/year, or better still make it so people have to prove they've got something 'necessary' (but the problem with that would be arguments over what is defined as 'necessary' and the administration of employing people to validate the proof and decide to issue the booking).

Few other problems:

Who would maintain the non-privately owned cars? I've spent quite a bit on mechanical repairs recently, but if it wasn't mine then I definitely wouldn't have bothered! Taxes would have to be a lot higher in order to fund necessary maintenance basically, otherwise cars would conk out before they'd done 10,000 miles or else they'd all have something broken on them or something wrong with them.
The public would have to help out - people who were capable of doing basic oil and filter changes could do say 10 on a weekend (on 10 similar cars) in a lot less than 10 times the time it would take to do 1, and they could then qualify for discounts.

I had thought of two other problems - one being how to pay for it (i.e. tax, but people who never want to use a car and are far too poor to shouldn't be unfairly penalised), and the other being accountability - non-private cars could be much more easily used in crime. But there would presumably be a pay-per-mile system to answer the first, and the fact that people have their own electronic key would be the second.
Any other problems with this system? I'm thinking at the moment the mechanical one, and the resistance to the idea in the first place would be the main ones.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

How is diesel better for the environment than petrol?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It isn't, apart from the fact you use less of it...

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
Apart from the fact that George is a global warming campaigner, and that he's been ousted as a hypocrite, it's not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

'Outed' I believe is the word for which you're looking. And I'm glad you don't take the simoncp view of the world (that science of global warming can be dismissed because of the personal politics of what we do about it).

Interesting question though: is someone who alters their position slightly and is open about it, a hypocrite? I am rather suspicious of people who claim never to have changed their minds, even slightly, about anything - that would strike me as naive, dogmatic and even dangerous...

Is someone who has to make a choice between two things (in this case, a life relationship and being car free) a hypocrite for chosing one? If my wife wanted to life somewhere that meant we had to have a car, I'd probably put up with that for the sake of the relationship. It wouldn't mean I still couldn't legitimately see car culture as damaging. It's still possible to realise how collective, social bad results can result from a combination of normal personal decisions, politics and so on...

We're all hypocrits to some degree or other in someone's eyes. The important thing is whether on balance you do more good as a person or more bad. Even if Saddam Hussein was a cyclist, I still don't think you'd regard him as of overall benefit to the world. In contrast, George is a man who's done a lot of good, sometimes at considerable person risk. And he now owns a car. If there's anyone here who thinks they've done as much good as him, feel free to be superior. I can't.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not saying he's a hypocrite because he's changed his mind, or because he's of net benefit to the world, I'm saying he's a hypocrite because of the strength of his anti-car rants and views that the car is an unnecessary evil. i.e. to change his mind in principle doesn't make him a hypocrite, but to change his views completely after being so strongly against cars, does.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Guess you missed the millions os others in brackets there?

More a case of

us us us

With us being the majority. Looks like you are in the minority that don't want people to have cars. You are closer to "me me me" I think you'll find.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
erm...I'm not sure you are in the majority actually Joe. I think if a car-pool scheme was well designed and the obvious benefits of always having the opportunity to drive *a* car, without having the personal responsibility of servicing, maintenance or depreciation costs, were put across to people, then I think you would find a lot of people would actually be in favour. I can't prove either way what 'the majority' would say, because I haven't surveyed them. But neither have you.
YOU only want to keep motor cars as being privately owned because YOU'VE got a porsche and driving it is one of your hobbies that you enjoy, and you don't see why you should have to drive a not so good car. But a lot of people don't really care about *what* car they're driving, as long as it does the job they want it to do.

You shouldn't ASSUME you're in the majority, unless you KNOW that to be the case.

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mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
[...

I'm not saying he's a hypocrite because he's changed his mind, or because he's of net benefit to the world, I'm saying he's a hypocrite because of the strength of his anti-car rants and views that the car is an unnecessary evil. i.e. to change his mind in principle doesn't make him a hypocrite, but to change his views completely after being so strongly against cars, does.
...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
bonj, since when has doing the best you can been hypocrisy?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

I am in the majority which is those who want to own and use a car. Yes, a lot of people may or may not like a car pool scheme but as it doesn't exist it cannot be counted can it!

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss
[...

I'm not saying he's a hypocrite because he's changed his mind, or because he's of net benefit to the world, I'm saying he's a hypocrite because of the strength of his anti-car rants and views that the car is an unnecessary evil. i.e. to change his mind in principle doesn't make him a hypocrite, but to change his views completely after being so strongly against cars, does.
...
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bonj, since when has doing the best you can been hypocrisy?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's not "the best he can" though, is it - you don't NEED a car. It just smacks of selfishness that when he is living in a situation where he can carry out his life perfectly easily without needing to use a car, they're an unnecessary evil - yet when he decides he wants (not needs, wants) to live in the countryside, oh - actually, cars are ok after all.

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

- yet when he decides he wants (not needs, wants) to live in the countryside, oh - actually, cars are ok after all.

[
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've noticed that often those with "progressive" views don't really understand what being in the country is like. Peter Hain recently criticised Welsh farmers for having 4x4s without realising that they're one of the few groups that actually need them.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Ah, so you're planning on having the requirement to book one, rather than just get one that's free... that could work, but I think you'd have to 'ration' the booking, otherwise some people would just book one every day and hog it to try and make it as if they've always got their own personal one. You'd have to instead either have a fairly high booking fee (at least a tenner, possibly more) or alternatively, have only a certain amount of bookings per week/month/year...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't think there need be a booking fee; you would simply have higher priority if you hadn't used a car recently. For example: you clock up a point for every day you don't drive, and when you try to book the computer program which manages the system predicts the lowest points score each successful applicant needs to have in order for the available vehicles to be almost fully utilised on the day in question.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Few other problems:

Who would maintain the non-privately owned cars?

...I had thought of two other problems - one being how to pay for it (i.e. tax, but people who never want to use a car and are far too poor to shouldn't be unfairly penalised), and the other being accountability - non-private cars could be much more easily used in crime. But there would presumably be a pay-per-mile system to answer the first, and the fact that people have their own electronic key would be the second.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes: pay-per-mile at a rate that incorporates regular servicing, and insurance. There would be a utility which was responsible for this, as well as for breakdown assistance. It could be publicly or privately owned.

These are only problems of organisational detail, all surmountable with a little ingenuity. The more serious difficulty would be relieving people of their currently owned private vehicles without violent resistance and mass suicides...

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Instead of this hair brained car pool idea, why not just massively improve the bus services?

No waiting around for your turn in the car, which is the bigest problem I see. There would always be a regular bus to take you to pretty much anywhere.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM
The more serious difficulty would be relieving people of their currently owned private vehicles without violent resistance and mass suicides...
![:)][V]

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Rome went mad with lead pollution.

It was Vandals who straightened their pipes

But of course,

If you're conceived in a car as many are.

If you first fucked in a car as many have.

If you go to work in a car,

And if you derive most of your pleasure, food and sustenance via cars,

You're going to defend them to the death.

From Heathcote Williams
Autogeddon

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

The pool car idea works well provided the pool car is a top of the range BMW and you always get it when you want it.

Global warming update

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