This whole RLJ thing

Eat My Dust · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

What if you hit a pedestrian??

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Then the crime for which the pededstrian was a victim of is careless cycling, not RLJing, as the very fact that the pedestrian was hit was not purely because the cyclist had RLJed, but due to the fact they didn't look out for the ped while doing it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Again sounds like a speeding argument. "it wasn't because the driver was doing 50mph in a 30 zone that they killed the pedestrian, it was becuase they weren't looking properly while doing said speed"

SNAPS

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cupoftea

Sitting at lights is dangerous, junctions are dangerous <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry but that is cack and is often the argument used by a cyclist who cannot be bothered to obey the law. Just admit it, you jump lights because you cannot be arsed to wait.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
http://tinyurl.com/366awv
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reminds me of an old joke:

There was this statistics student who, when driving his car, would always accelerate hard before coming to any junction, whizz straight over it, then slow down again once he'd got over it. One day, he took a passenger, who was understandably unnerved by his driving style, and asked him why he went so fast over junctions. The statistics student replied, "Well, statistically speaking, you are far more likely to have an accident at a junction, so I just make sure that I spend less time there."

Folders

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

Hmmm, what about it being illegal?

I'd shoplift if I was allowed to, as it's illegal I don't!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
But shoplifting has a victim. RLJing is a victimless crime.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Again. Taking an indefensible position in order to waste the time of people who argue with you.

Baby elephants? Pah!!

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

I am what I would like to believe is a responsible RLJer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh come off it, the only reason you RLJ is because you cannot be bothered to wait. Don't kid yourself, there is no such thing as a responsible RLJer, just a lazy or reckless one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You had this line all saved up before even reading the post, and then you just skimmed through it for an appropriate "soundbite", right?

You missed the bit about these instances being <10% of the reds I encounter.

Anyhow, with all this in mind, on my commute, the only reds I jump are pedestrian crossings that allow me to get a jump on the traffic along a relatively fas moving road typically filled with WVM and with some pretty awful pinch points. And I do stop first and then go. It usually means I get to the roundabout at the end before them and don't get forced off the road or attract vitriol that I otherwise would in the road.

This is the only place I do it. For the rest I stop and wait and check out the stopped cars for cute women. So it has nothing to do with not being bothered to wait.

My point being that there are specific occasions where it can be in your benefit to RLJ and not to blindly obey - but I do agree that those occasions are few and far between. But we have brains and I do think we should be trusted to use them.

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hevipedal

Simple - the law says you have to stop at a red light. therefore you have to stop.
Arguements about safety, fairness, or it takes a second off my journey are irrelevant.
It is against the law.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is a the best argument for not jumping.

(In all seriousness) I'm going to sleep on it.

This may seem odd to many of you, but being from South Africa, the standard approach to the law is that it is very much optional, and a personal choice. I guess sometimes I need to adjust my mindset [:0].

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by janm399

If we want to be treated like cars, we should all ride like we're driving a car. I find that vast majority of drivers on my daily commute treat me with respect and are quite happy to let me make a right turn, slow down behind me and generally be nice to me if I ride in a predictable way. I bet the moment I'd start passing them on the left or jumping red lights, they'd stop treating me like a car and I'd get into pretty dangerous situations.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Another well put argument, thanks!

Roastie · June 2007

Sorry for the posting bomb, there was just so much to read that I felt I wanted to comment on.

Anyhow, given 5 pages it seems it wasn't such a pointless thread after all!

janm399 I think gives a strong argument simply because it is eminently sensible. Hevipedal, who would probably be called a sheep by the most committed RLJ'er, reminds me of an unarguable truth.

So, all in all, what has been said on this thread will probably make me rethink how I approach every light. I do think - perhaps I will pay those two pedestrian crossings more respect.

fatbloke...felixstowe - your comments are just the kind that are completely unhelpful and just harden the resolve of habitual RLJers to continue.

domtyler · June 2007

Good to see the anti-rlj nazis are out in force tonight. Seriously, you guys should lighten up or you'll die of some nasty stress related disorder. Talk about a dog with a bone.

And for the record I rarely jump rls but will definitely reserve the right to do so when I feel the need, this is basically at problem junctions or when there are total w@nkers on my tail that I can't be bothered to tangle with.

All you nazis are of a certain age I notice, anything in that I wonder?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Porridge not Petrol
________
Eckankar forum

Fab Foodie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler

All you nazis are of a certain age I notice, anything in that I wonder?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, we have experience and wisdom. Maybe you might live long enough to acquire some yourself.

BTW, I resent being labelled a Nazi for arguing the case for proper road manners and a bit of consideration for fellow cyclists and other road-users. Try persuading us with reasoned arguments why we should all RLJ, without resorting to cheap jibes thank you.

The pessimists of this world are rarely disappointed....
Fab's TCR1

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

domtyler I won't tell you what you come across as.I possess manners.

Nicely put FF.

Christ hard day of tangling with weeheads in Central London then I come home to crap like this.

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 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler

Good to see the anti-rlj nazis...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Time to invoke Godwins law. You lose.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie
Anyhow, with all this in mind, on my commute, the only reds I jump are pedestrian crossings that allow me to get a jump on the traffic along a relatively fas moving road typically filled with WVM and with some pretty awful pinch points. And I do stop first and then go. It usually means I get to the roundabout at the end before them and don't get forced off the road or attract vitriol that I otherwise would in the road. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your behaviour is indefensible.

If there are pinch points, and the road has heavy enough traffic for it to be worth you getting a jump, then you need to be out in primary position and no scootling through traffic to a red light. Claim your place in the lane and keep it, require that the other road users treat you as an equal and act as an equal.

To do otherwise is what encourages more vitriol from other road suers than anything else.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Looked it up.Very interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
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Jacomus-rides-Gen · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Domtyler

All you nazis are of a certain age I notice, anything in that I wonder?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are we now? And how old would that be? 21 perhaps?

What about if we are also from Germany, and fit the classic Aryan profile? Who is the Hitler to my rlj Nazism? DON'T use an Anglisised term for Nationalsozialismus, which is a particularly nasty breed of racist politics, to describe people who choose to obey the law. That is called "responsible citizenship" NOT "Nazism".

I am well aware of the colloquial use if the word Nazi to describe someone who seems mindlessly committed to a cause, however it is a highly offensive word which could easily be supplanted by another word to convey the same meaning. Your use of "Nazi" simply shows a lack of decency.

I guess I have broken Godwin's Law by posting this, but it needed to be said.

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

What if you hit a pedestrian??

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Then the crime for which the pededstrian was a victim of is careless cycling, not RLJing, as the very fact that the pedestrian was hit was not purely because the cyclist had RLJed, but due to the fact they didn't look out for the ped while doing it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Again sounds like a speeding argument. "it wasn't because the driver was doing 50mph in a 30 zone that they killed the pedestrian, it was becuase they weren't looking properly while doing said speed"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, that's a whole different kettle of badgers.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jacomus-rides-Gen

I am well aware of the colloquial use if the word Nazi to describe someone who seems mindlessly committed to a cause,

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That'd be Chauvinism, which is a less offensive term to use, and doesn't involve Godwin's Law.

You're not the boss of me.

Eat My Dust · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler

All you nazis are of a certain age I notice, anything in that I wonder?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe you have a point, me being an old man of 31!!

SNAPS

urrrrrrrrrs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler

All you nazis are of a certain age I notice, anything in that I wonder?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe you have a point, me being an old man of 31!!

SNAPS

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

cheers Dom mate !! i'm 36 next month[:(]

i'd rather have a bottle in front of me,than a frontal lobotomy

Sh4rkybloke · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Well, that's a whole different kettle of badgers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Please be warned that the keeping of badgers in a kettle is cruel and (probably) illegal.

As long as you check for other woodland creatures before putting the afore mentioned badger within the water boiling recepticle though, and if it is done for the sake of safety (i.e. a rabbit may be waiting to catch you off guard and nibble your heels), then badger insertion is fine and a victimless crime.

Oh wait... errrr, should that be carrots in kettles... or is it rabbits in badgers...

I'll get my coat.

Nothing in life is foolproof, fools are ingenious

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

I am what I would like to believe is a responsible RLJer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh come off it, the only reason you RLJ is because you cannot be bothered to wait. Don't kid yourself, there is no such thing as a responsible RLJer, just a lazy or reckless one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You had this line all saved up before even reading the post, and then you just skimmed through it for an appropriate "soundbite", right?

You missed the bit about these instances being <10% of the reds I encounter.

Anyhow, with all this in mind, on my commute, the only reds I jump are pedestrian crossings that allow me to get a jump on the traffic along a relatively fas moving road typically filled with WVM and with some pretty awful pinch points. And I do stop first and then go. It usually means I get to the roundabout at the end before them and don't get forced off the road or attract vitriol that I otherwise would in the road.

This is the only place I do it. For the rest I stop and wait and check out the stopped cars for cute women. So it has nothing to do with not being bothered to wait.

My point being that there are specific occasions where it can be in your benefit to RLJ and not to blindly obey - but I do agree that those occasions are few and far between. But we have brains and I do think we should be trusted to use them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think we both know that it has everything to do with not being bothered to wait. I know, I have done it myself. From personal experience I have never encountered any set of lights where it would be safer to jump rather than wait.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
http://tinyurl.com/366awv

tstegers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

I am what I would like to believe is a responsible RLJer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh come off it, the only reason you RLJ is because you cannot be bothered to wait. Don't kid yourself, there is no such thing as a responsible RLJer, just a lazy or reckless one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You had this line all saved up before even reading the post, and then you just skimmed through it for an appropriate "soundbite", right?

You missed the bit about these instances being <10% of the reds I encounter.

Anyhow, with all this in mind, on my commute, the only reds I jump are pedestrian crossings that allow me to get a jump on the traffic along a relatively fas moving road typically filled with WVM and with some pretty awful pinch points. And I do stop first and then go. It usually means I get to the roundabout at the end before them and don't get forced off the road or attract vitriol that I otherwise would in the road.

This is the only place I do it. For the rest I stop and wait and check out the stopped cars for cute women. So it has nothing to do with not being bothered to wait.

My point being that there are specific occasions where it can be in your benefit to RLJ and not to blindly obey - but I do agree that those occasions are few and far between. But we have brains and I do think we should be trusted to use them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think we both know that it has everything to do with not being bothered to wait. I know, I have done it myself. From personal experience I have never encountered any set of lights where it would be safer to jump rather than wait.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
http://tinyurl.com/366awv
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't talk bo**ocks it's always safer to consider jumping and to jump if the road is clear. To say otherwise in the face of the differential in the numbers killed or seriously injured complying compared to the same numbers for jumping is personal agenda loaded tosh. It's phoney. It's propaganda. Or from the OED it's bo**ocks...

Theo Stegers

BentMikey · June 2007

It's you talking bollocks there Theo.

My bikes
My skates

If I had a baby elephant, I'd teach it to skate.

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers
Don't talk bo**ocks it's always safer to consider jumping and to jump if the road is clear. To say otherwise in the face of the differential in the numbers killed or seriously injured complying compared to the same numbers for jumping is personal agenda loaded tosh. It's phoney. It's propaganda. Or from the OED it's bo**ocks...
Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As always Theo I look forward to your well balanced replys and as always I am still waiting for one. You are really very deluded if you honestly think that jumping a red light is safer than waiting. Go on just admit it, the only reason you jump is beacause you cannot be bothered to stop.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
http://tinyurl.com/366awv

funkyrayman · June 2007

Theo....
Where do you get these numbers from? Where are the numbers for jumping and complying? Everyone refers to these statistics but no one ever provides more details, dare I say acceptable statistics don't exist??

If you can give more information please do, it would be interesting to see it (Genuinely).

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Deja Vu.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
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tstegers · June 2007

Fat bloke, were you down the cafe getting some roughage in through the development of the "Barbican" thread? Explain the 130:0 or 130:2. It is clearly complete bo**ocks to say jumping lights is dangerous. Jumping lights with your eyes closed is clearly dangerous but then that could be said of life in general. With your eyes open jumping lights is good training, it helps to maintain a self responsible mindset. It help to teach people to be observant and to read the road ahead, all the time not just at light controlled junctions.

You lot, the anti RLJ brigade, should admit that you have an addiction to sanctimony and leave it at that. Oh and out of consideration for others - 76% and rising - get well out of the way in sarf London if you intend stopping at light controlled junctions.

Theo Stegers

chuckles · June 2007

Hi There,

Not quite sure what happened to the balanced discussion originally taking place but still...

I asked before what other forumites thought of slightly anticipating the green light so as to steal a march on the motorized pack of dogs? I frequently do this to enable me to gain my required road position before having to deal with big, fast, powerful, heavy, smelly metal things whizzing past squeezing me into the gutter.

Thanks

Chuckles

tstegers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by funkyrayman

Theo....
Where do you get these numbers from? Where are the numbers for jumping and complying? Everyone refers to these statistics but no one ever provides more details, dare I say acceptable statistics don't exist??

If you can give more information please do, it would be interesting to see it (Genuinely).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

CupofT can fill you in and so can TfL. Or you could look up the Barbican thread, all 60 odd pages of it. Or ask Mister Paul, he got very "excited" by it all. Or you could search the BBC website or indeed most of the broadsheet nationals. A month or so ago they concluded it was best for women to jump lights - along with the rest of us.

Theo Stegers

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

You lot, the anti RLJ brigade, should admit that you have an addiction to sanctimony and leave it at that. Oh and out of consideration for others - 76% and rising - get well out of the way in sarf London if you intend stopping at light controlled junctions.

You RLJ lot don't seem to have any consideration for anybody.

OH and BTW RLJ is ILLEGAL.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

Fat bloke, were you down the cafe getting some roughage in through the development of the "Barbican" thread? Explain the 130:0 or 130:2. It is clearly complete bo**ocks to say jumping lights is dangerous. Jumping lights with your eyes closed is clearly dangerous but then that could be said of life in general. With your eyes open jumping lights is good training, it helps to maintain a self responsible mindset. It help to teach people to be observant and to read the road ahead, all the time not just at light controlled junctions.

You lot, the anti RLJ brigade, should admit that you have an addiction to sanctimony and leave it at that. Oh and out of consideration for others - 76% and rising - get well out of the way in sarf London if you intend stopping at light controlled junctions.

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Theo, I gave up on the Barbican thread due to your insane ramblings and this one now looks like it is going to go the same way. My self responsible mindset enables me to be able to read the road ahead fully thanks and hence why in my 15 years of commuting 100 miles plus a week I have not had an accident. Please remind me again of how many you have had in this time and maybe then we could see where I am going wrong.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
http://tinyurl.com/366awv

This whole RLJ thing

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