This whole RLJ thing

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I intentionally put some because it is not a specific measure. So it can't be an understatement. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, "some" is not a metric and is meaningingless in the context that you originally used it - everything has "some" risk...

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is a complete blind alley of an argument.

You're not the boss of me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really, I would rather attempt to quantify risks with metrics (where possible) - if this is a blind alley for you, so be it.

Folders

domtyler · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chuckles
Hi,

As no-one answered my previous post on page 6 I decided to try out waiting in the ASL until the lights properly turned green last night and this morning. I will definitely not be doing this again as it ruined both journeys for me. What I found was that if there was even a slight delay in clipping in to the pedals or whatever then you had some idiot either beeping or revving their engine two feet away from my back wheel. Then trying to overtake in a ridiculous and dangerous manner. I am not sure how people can say that this is safer, it felt totally unnerving and stressful for me compared to my normal ride. I can only assume that you guys ride in close to the gutter thereby avoiding all this, this is not something I tend to do either.

Having given the whole thing a lot of thought overnight too I have come to the conclusion that anticipating is not a problem. While it may 'technically' be illegal, by initially stopping at the light I am in fact abiding by the 'spirit' of the law. Besides which, I do not and never have blindly followed rules and regulations to the letter just for their own sake. I have spent my lifetime forming my own moral code of conduct and use that as my guide in my day to day life rather than refer to law books. Additionally, the law does precious little for me as a cyclist so really do not see why I should give it any respect at all.

I thought about the effect this may have on drivers attitudes to me too and cannot recall it ever causing me a problem in the past, as I say they are normally far more bothered if I cause a totally insignificant 'delay' to their journey to the next set of lights. I do note a big difference between my style and behaviour and the small number of total idiots who sail across red lights without even bothering to slow down though, I don't think there are actually many of these around in London though, certainly not on my route.

So for now I shall be continuing with my previous tactic of anticipating the green light as soon as it is safe to go.

Chuckles
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Chuckles, I am with you 100% as are many people out there I am sure. There are a lot of idiots in these threads so don't take a blind bit of notice. It is like trying to talk sense into the deeply religious/mentally ill, i.e. you would have better results banging your head against a brick wall with rusty nails poking out.

Love your point about the law, it totally fails cyclists, putting cars above people, and then they expect us to respect it!!! WTF???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And your point??<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I wanted to supply stats (reductive as they were) that illuminated your deployment of the word "some".

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why?

Junctions carry risk. Roads carry risk. Walking down the stairs carries risk. The amount of risk isn't the key. What's important is what level you can reduce the risk to.

And achieving the correct level of proficiency when cycling can reduce the risk at junctions below that of RLJing.

See, the problem is that the safety at junctions issue has been hijacked by a few of the pro-RLJers. They take it, and try to convince people that the only options are obey the lights and die, or RLJ and live. And that's ridiculous.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

WyS · June 2007

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/4651/pong6ua.gif

il_principe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

Oi! Mister Paul! Give me your hand. Smack! (private joke..[;)])

Chuckles: If you wait for the green light to get going, yes, you might get hassle. But you'll find that traffic lights have a thing in the middle called the amber light, which shows for second or two, to tell you that it's about to go green. Allow yourself a few feet back from the line when you stop, get going on amber, and you can be crossing the line on green and accelerating away. In this way I find I usually still have a head start of the vehicle behind me which gets me across the junction before they catch up...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good post Arch, I'll add to it if I may.

Why are people so worried about cars behind them revving or beeping as soon as lights go green?? I go on amber/green and on the occasion when I don't get away as quickly as usual I rarely get honked at, and if I do, who gives a sh@t anyway? Let's remember that 99% of drivers are not homicidal maniacs who will run you over if you are a little slow getting away on green. So let them beep and rev all they like, they're highly unlikely to cause you harm; I'd suggest that by jumping the light you'll be putting yourself in more danger. Get into primary and wait, and if you are so pathetic that you can't handle being beeped at I'd suggest you either read cyclecraft and improve your road positioning or get off the damn bike.
[}:)]

My Best Bike

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why?

Junctions carry risk. Roads carry risk. Walking down the stairs carries risk.

The amount of risk isn't the key. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Defining and measuring the risk is key, then you can determine which strategies (if any) to employ to mitigate the risk.

Put it this way, you said "The fact remains that junctions always have some element of risk, whether controlled or not" and I replied "nearly three quarters of cyclist accidents happen at, or near, a road junction with T-junctions being the most commonly involved (RoSPA)". Even with this rather crude comparison, I know which statement I would rather use when attempting to analyse the risk posed by junctions to cyclists.

Folders

dondare · June 2007

The majority of light-contolled junctions are safe to stop at. Why do you RLJ at those?

You're not the boss of me.

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jashburnham
Why are people so worried about cars behind them revving or beeping as soon as lights go green?? I go on amber/green and on the occasion when I don't get away as quickly as usual I rarely get honked at, and if I do, who gives a sh@t anyway? Let's remember that 99% of drivers are not homicidal maniacs who will run you over if you are a little slow getting away on green. So let them beep and rev all they like, they're highly unlikely to cause you harm; I'd suggest that by jumping the light you'll be putting yourself in more danger. Get into primary and wait, and if you are so pathetic that you can't handle being beeped at I'd suggest you either read cyclecraft and improve your road positioning or get off the damn bike.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It takes some doing, actually. I mean learning to ignore people revving behind you, the natural instinct for many is to get out of the way, to move aside, which is a shame as thats often the most dangerous thing you can do (as it just encourages them to come closer as they pass).

I think that the argument that red light jumping is an attempt to minimise that behaviour from motorists is just bunkum though. All that would mean is that the motorist will catch up a little further on down the road, and now he doesn't only potentially disrespect you because you're a cyclist, he disrespects you because you're a law breaking cyclist.

Really though, we can discount this whole argument. It isn't about being safer, that isn't why people jump red lights. Thats merely a rationalisation for what is basically laziness.

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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why?

Junctions carry risk. Roads carry risk. Walking down the stairs carries risk.

The amount of risk isn't the key. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Defining and measuring the risk is key, then you can determine which strategies (if any) to employ to mitigate the risk.

Put it this way, you said "The fact remains that junctions always have some element of risk, whether controlled or not" and I replied "nearly three quarters of cyclist accidents happen at, or near, a road junction with T-junctions being the most commonly involved (RoSPA)". Even with this rather crude comparison, I know which statement I would rather use when attempting to analyse the risk posed by junctions to cyclists.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why are you still going down the alley?

It seems like you're trying to argue with me while saying something that I agree with. Of course junctions are included in the parts of the road network that carry higher risk. No-one has denied that, and if you read this post and the last highly tedious RLJ post you'll see it discussed regularly.

For the purposes of the post where I made my risk comment, the level is immaterial. You might want to read it again.

Minimising risk means bringing the level as low as you can. So, while level of potential risk is important when assessing priorities, in this respect the level doesn't impact on the final result.

I'm still not sure where you're going with this string, and would question the value in continuing with it. Especially when it appears that we are agreeing on the original points.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why are you still going down the alley?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not sure, I was guessing you had reading/risk comprehension problems and was simply trying to enlighten you (I have clearly failed on the basis of your last post).

As I am not much of a pedagogue, I recommend: "Fundamentals of Risk Analysis and Risk Management" by Vlasta Molak (ed).

Folders

Mister Paul · June 2007

Nope, still not relevant to what the actual original post said.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

WyS · June 2007

ipod and in-earphones get rid of the revving and muffles the beeping considerably. and people shouting.

Plus you get less startled from close passing vehicles, you just have to be more observant as you cant rely on your ears.

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Nope, still not relevant to what the actual original post said.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Still? I have qualified your vague use of "some" and that was my intention - no more. Don't stew over it, the weekend's almost upon us...

Safe cycling Mr Paul.

Folders

Mister Paul · June 2007

Look up the word. It doesn't have a quantity. As I have already said, I deliberately avoided using a measure, as I didn't want to get distracted by arguing about level. And I still don't.

In the context of my post, the level doesn't matter. Of course when assessing risk we need to be more specific.

We all accept that there is a higher level of risk at junctions than at some other places in the road network (I don't really know why I'm typing this again), but at the same time I'm conscious not to overstate risk, as it can be minimised.

Level of risk at junctions is controlled largely by the cyclist. Largely but not completely.

And the point of the post in question was that RLJing is not the easiest nor the safest way of controlling this risk.

And don't worry, I'm not going to spend the weekend stewing over it. I have 120 miles of cycling to do.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Oddballcp · June 2007

Cycling through a junction when the light is red shows a contempt for the law which is perhaps understandable, and a contempt for other people which is inexcusable.

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Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

If there are pinch points and plenty of traffic then you need to be out in the lane where others will be discouraged from passing too close, else you need to be so far to the left that others can overtake safely without pulling out. There is no middle ground here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Put away the textbook and engage brain. This isn't p1ssy London traffic, this is Swindon. With vans and lorries and other potentially harmful vehicles driven by hard working people early in the morning on their way to work at 35-40mph - I'm really not about to force my positioning in the primary, because it will result in conflict, bad tempers and all the rest.

Anyhow, it as all moot now, because the roadworks that caused the pinch points is now complete making the road a lot safer, so (as I do with all other lights) I just obey the reds as I normally would.

That said, next time I come across a situation where my brain tells me to get ahead rather then end up in the mix, I'll do so.

Here's a question, when last did a motorist point vitriol in your direction? And when last did a motorist thank you for your actions? Be honest now.

rgisme · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

Here's a question, when last did a motorist point vitriol in your direction? And when last did a motorist thank you for your actions? Be honest now.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oh, I can answer that (I know you were talking to cab but I want to be smug [:)]. First question - can't remember. It was a very long time ago. Years. Second question - today, this very evening in fact. A WVM was doing a U in heavy traffic on his side so I slowed as I approached to let him complete his manoeuvre rather than barging past which I could have done. He gave a couple of flashes of his hazard lights acknowledging it.

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chuckles

Hi,

As no-one answered my previous post on page 6 I decided to try out waiting in the ASL until the lights properly turned green last night and this morning. I will definitely not be doing this again as it ruined both journeys for me. What I found was that if there was even a slight delay in clipping in to the pedals or whatever then you had some idiot either beeping or revving their engine two feet away from my back wheel. Then trying to overtake in a ridiculous and dangerous manner. I am not sure how people can say that this is safer, it felt totally unnerving and stressful for me compared to my normal ride. I can only assume that you guys ride in close to the gutter thereby avoiding all this, this is not something I tend to do either.

Having given the whole thing a lot of thought overnight too I have come to the conclusion that anticipating is not a problem. While it may 'technically' be illegal, by initially stopping at the light I am in fact abiding by the 'spirit' of the law. Besides which, I do not and never have blindly followed rules and regulations to the letter just for their own sake. I have spent my lifetime forming my own moral code of conduct and use that as my guide in my day to day life rather than refer to law books. Additionally, the law does precious little for me as a cyclist so really do not see why I should give it any respect at all.

I thought about the effect this may have on drivers attitudes to me too and cannot recall it ever causing me a problem in the past, as I say they are normally far more bothered if I cause a totally insignificant 'delay' to their journey to the next set of lights. I do note a big difference between my style and behaviour and the small number of total idiots who sail across red lights without even bothering to slow down though, I don't think there are actually many of these around in London though, certainly not on my route.

So for now I shall be continuing with my previous tactic of anticipating the green light as soon as it is safe to go.

Chuckles
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hear hear! The vote for common sense over obeying without thinking!

This whole RLJ thing got me thinking last night - Often one of the drivers for remarkable legal change is showing contempt for the law. Bringing it into question. The law isn't always right - it is some dude's idea (in the case of our roads, clearly a car driver and not a cyclist) of what is right and what is wrong.

I remember when I was a kid growing up in South Africa. In our final year at school, as part of the conscription process, we legally had to register to join the armed forces - to "keep the peace" in the townships, etc. You could register, but then put it off on account of studying, which many did, but some refused to sign.

Now, I can't claim to have been one of the brave, I refused based on a plausible grounds that were accepted, but those who did say something did break the law and did face the consequences. This was four years before Mandela was released.

So my point is, you get those who blindly follow the law, and those who question it - and sometimes by their actions show contempt for it.

Personally I think the road rules, design, etc. are all stupid and not in the best interests of the cyclist. On a whole I will obey the laws, but where I believe they put me in danger, I will break them rather than follow them blindly. It may make me unpopular with some, but those guys who didn't sign the register didn't do so to win a popularity contest either.

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

If there are pinch points and plenty of traffic then you need to be out in the lane where others will be discouraged from passing too close, else you need to be so far to the left that others can overtake safely without pulling out. There is no middle ground here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Put away the textbook and engage brain. This isn't p1ssy London traffic, this is Swindon. With vans and lorries and other potentially harmful vehicles driven by hard working people early in the morning on their way to work at 35-40mph - I'm really not about to force my positioning in the primary, because it will result in conflict, bad tempers and all the rest.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It works perfectly well for me. I find that if you act assertively rather than aggressively you get a much better response. If they see that you know what you're doing then on the whole you'll get more respect.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

Here's a question, when last did a motorist point vitriol in your direction? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wednesday afternoon. I was in the city centre, moved into the right hand line which veers off to the right, and a driver behind bibbed. I didn't slow her down or cause her any problem at all. We stopped at the lights and I asked her what the matter was. She pretended I wasn't there.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

And when last did a motorist thank you for your actions? Be honest now.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This evening. I was in the middle of the left hand lane on the A38 in Birmingham. Had been in primary position for about half a mile through slow moving traffic, and no-body was complaining. There was a car waiting to turn right across our two lanes. The car to my right flashed him, I gestured with my head, the car turned and thanked us both.

Act like you're part of the traffic, and on the whole everyone will treat you like part of the traffic. Act like you think you're different to them and they won't.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Act like you're part of the traffic, and on the whole everyone will treat you like part of the traffic. Act like you think you're different to them and they won't.

Seen that.Sometimes they are nice to me and it takes me by surprise.[:I]

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dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

If there are pinch points and plenty of traffic then you need to be out in the lane where others will be discouraged from passing too close, else you need to be so far to the left that others can overtake safely without pulling out. There is no middle ground here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Put away the textbook and engage brain. This isn't p1ssy London traffic, this is Swindon. With vans and lorries and other potentially harmful vehicles driven by hard working people early in the morning on their way to work at 35-40mph - I'm really not about to force my positioning in the primary, because it will result in conflict, bad tempers and all the rest.

Anyhow, it as all moot now, because the roadworks that caused the pinch points is now complete making the road a lot safer, so (as I do with all other lights) I just obey the reds as I normally would.

That said, next time I come across a situation where my brain tells me to get ahead rather then end up in the mix, I'll do so.

Here's a question, when last did a motorist point vitriol in your direction? And when last did a motorist thank you for your actions? Be honest now.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm sure that some of these provincial places are worse than London; Ed O'B's accounts of Telford, for instance, make it sound like cycling Hell. But he managed to stop at reds and stay alive.
I see hundreds of jumpers a week, none of whom are doing it for reasons of personal safety; I stop at reds and feel in no danger.
Stop fooling yourselves and don't think that you can fool anybody else.

You're not the boss of me.

dondare · June 2007

I'll tell you what, some of you RLJers get a helmet or handlebar cam and talk us through your commute, explaining why you needed to jump all those lights.

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

I thought country lanes would be worse.

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paulwood · June 2007

I don't RLJ much but quite often make an imaginary ASL when there isn't one, safer because I get out in front where they can all see me and doesn't upset the drivers as I comply with the spirit if not the letter of the law.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by funkyrayman

Theo....
Where do you get these numbers from? Where are the numbers for jumping and complying? Everyone refers to these statistics but no one ever provides more details, dare I say acceptable statistics don't exist??

If you can give more information please do, it would be interesting to see it (Genuinely).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

CupofT can fill you in and so can TfL. Or you could look up the Barbican thread, all 60 odd pages of it. Or ask Mister Paul, he got very "excited" by it all. Or you could search the BBC website or indeed most of the broadsheet nationals. A month or so ago they concluded it was best for women to jump lights - along with the rest of us.

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No they didn't you blathering idiot.
The figures showed that a higher proportion of the casualties for women cyclists were caused by HGVs compared the male cyclists. Without doing any kind of research they guessed that this was because women are more likely to obey the law, such as stopping at red lights. This guess was picked up by a load of ignorant hacks.
I have not noticed women are more likely to stop than men at lights, I am not aware that anyone has shown that they do. It was just a guess.

You're not the boss of me.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Would you be willing to time your commute riding in the normal fashion one day, and then the next day time it again but obey traffic lights? I would be interested to see what kind of difference it makes to a cyclist I assume to be fit and fast, as so far I can virtually count on one hand the number of times I haven't overhauled an RLJer between lights. Also how you felt during the ride, more stressed, less frustrated etc etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indubitably, jumping the red lights will make your journey time shorter. The more lights you jump (and particularly those with longer phases) the quicker you will get to your destination - assuming you don't come a cropper...

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Driving at 55 mh in a 30 zone can make your journey shorter, and if there's no Gatsos to snap you and you're careful and skilful enough not to have an accident then it's a victimless crime. So Mr. Blankety Blank is right, just as theostegers &c. is right and the law is just an ass that we can all ignore.

You're not the boss of me.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

Yes the bit you are missing is the fact that all six of the whacks occured while I was proceeding through/had proceeded through green lights. I haven't come close to a whack jumping red ones. In that respect my score is as good as yours. It's the green ones what are dangerous for me. The red ones... I know what to do...

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So it's safer to stop at green lights and wait until they're red before proceeding safely through?

You're not the boss of me.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

all six of the whacks occured while I was proceeding through/had proceeded through green lights. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

LOL, so are you saying it's dangerous to cyle through green lights?

SNAPS

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just for you and FrankM, What I have said is that it is dangerous to abdicate responsibility for your safety to a traffic light, whatever its colour. Look for traffic not lights was one of the ways I put it. I am pleased to be asked to repeat myself but in so asking, and thereby giving me the opportunity, you will irritate a high proportion of the anti jumping brigade. In the early days of my cycling I lowered my guard if the lights were green and started being whacked. In an opposite way I believe the dramas at red light/changing lights are caused by driverscyclists not paying attention and to some degree abdicating responsibility for their behaviour to traffic lights.

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You really are a cycling equivalent of Mr. Blankety Blank.
His argument that obeying the law clouds his own (better) judgement is totally spurious and so is yours.

You're not the boss of me.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jacomus-rides-Gen

Out of interest tstegers, and to save many of us (including myself) trawling the Barbican thread to find out what happened, when you say you have been hit 6 times after proceeding through a green light, how were you hit?

Some t*t driving throguh you from behind? Lane changer? You pull a dodgy move and get wiped out? Spill the beans, help us see why you would be so against waiting at red lights, without the antagonism you and fatbloke are giving each other.

This is obviously something you feel very strongly about, but I have to say that your attitude is not currently helping me understand your point of view.

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Left hooks: 2. Right hooks 2. From behind: 1. Road rage: 1 The road rage job was interesting for being precipitated by a wannabe master of the universe in a powerful car who was basically irritated by the fact I could proceed on two wheels across a green light junction where traffic had held him, his overpwered company owned car, and his squeeze up. This lot does not include a pedestrian job on Bishopsgate that was light related and caused me to break my wrist. That was a right hook.

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It can't just be waiting correctly at traffic lights that makes people cross with you, it must be some other quality that you have.

You're not the boss of me.

maybrick · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">funkyrayman

81 Posts
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:26:48

If it's 'ok' for me to RLJ on my bicycle, is it then ok for me to on my motorbike?

If I had a small 125cc bike it wouldn't be much bigger than a bicycle.

Can you explain to me why it would be dangerous for me to go through a red light on a small motorbike but SAFER for me to go through them when on my bicycle? 
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

if you can't answer this for yourself, then you're an idiot and should refrain from going anywhere near the road, certainly not on a motorised vehicle.

_______________

i'm not bound by your earthling rules.

This whole RLJ thing

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