This whole RLJ thing

Roastie · June 2007

This might be a debate that has been talked about ad-nauseam, but I was just wondering what the logic is behind the arguments of the protagonists of both sides of the story.

I am what I would like to believe is a responsible RLJer. We all know that roads are completely not designed with bicycle users in mind.
- Bikes accelerate at a different rate, turn at different speed, need less room to manoeuvre.
- Bikes can often safely turn left or proceed straight along T-junctions safely (just as examples).
- We also all know (or at least I hope we do) that putting a gap between us a and the cars (getting away in front of the traffic) is often the safer option for us rather than waiting for the lights.
- Apart from a careless RLJer getting him/herself run over, an RLJer generally does not put other road users in danger as does an RLJer in a car.
- RLJing may even get cyclists out of the danger zone next to HGVs at intersections...

So with all these benefits, what are the negatives:
- an RLJer who doesn't look properly can get run down
- car drivers get upset because they perceive that the bike is making better progress than them but don't realise the safety rationale, hence RLJers bring "disrepute" to other cyclists

So all in all I see obeying red lights blindly as just towing the line and often having this put the cyclist in question in greater danger at times. Now, I will admit that these times are the exception rather than the norm, and there are RLJers who indiscriminately jump just because they can. This is just a wind up for everyone else, and I recognise this, and it is probably why there is only 1 (maybe 2) light(s) on my commute of possibly 20 that I pass through that I will jump on principle of safety.

I guess what all this is making me think is that there ideally needs to be a "flashing orange" for cyclists in the situations where it makes sense - I guess we can dream.

Cheers,

D

(Lashings welcome.)

Unknown · June 2007

This might be a debate that has been talked about ad-nauseam

It has.

rothbook · June 2007

My solution:

If you cycle up to a junction and the lights are red all cyclists should be issued with a small thermo-baric device to blow up cars that may be in the way.

Harsh, but fair, the remote sets off the explosives under the roads.

OK, so people may die, but they ARE in their cars, they knew the risks.

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yello

 This might be a debate that has been talked about ad-nauseam

It has.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for that![:0]

Guy Young · June 2007

So far this week I have probably seen well over a hundred cyclists ride through red lights (and it's only Tuesday). I have not seen one who could reasonably argue that their safety had been enhanced by doing so. The majority of cyclits who jump red lights do so because they don't think they have to stop at them. I think the argument that it gives all cyclists a bad name is lost on most RLJers, who really couldn't give a crap.

The real irony is that the one thing that would cause me to consider, for my own safety, jumping a red light is a fear of having another cyclist plough into the back of me when I pull up at a red light because they assume that, like them, I will just carry straight on through. This nearly happened to me yesterday and I also suffered abuse because the cyclist behind me had to swerve around me to enable him to speed through the stop signal!

Oddballcp · June 2007

Do you think that moped-riders, motor-cyclists, motorists, taxi-drives, van-drivers, lorry-drivers and bus-drivers think of themselves as responsible RLJers?
What are your veiws on them saving themselves a few seconds?

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Fab Foodie · June 2007

Guy Young, Odball, spot-on. Roasti, do a search eh?

I have already had 1 cyclist plough into the back of me at lights because they were surprised that I slowed down and stopped at a red, and this week one really close near-miss. People who RLJ would do well to read Cyclecraft and ride accordingly.
If we want to be taken seriously as responsible road users then we have to start to obey the law. The fact that car drivers RLJ is no excuse. RLJ'ing is probably the major issue that puts Joe-Public's back up when it comes to cycling. It give the press the green-light to label us all as lycra-louts.

Roasti, you say you are a responsible RLJ'er, well I've got news for you...there's no such thing. There are cyclists who ride robustly and defensively and within the law. There are those who think they know better who have no interest in the welfare or image of cycling, other cyclists or pedestrians. That's pretty damn selfish and arrogant in my opinion.

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EvilCat · June 2007

I almost got knocked over 5 (I counted) times this morning walking from Aldgate East tube up Commercial Street, a distance of just over 1 mile. 2 red light jumpers, 2 out-and-out pavement cyclists and 1 moron who decided that across a pavement and the wrong-way up a one way street was a useful shortcut to shave 15 seconds off their commute and clip me on the shoulder as he went past.

I'm still angry: cycling in London is challenging enough without other cyclists giving the rest of us a bad name and putting people in danger. And the next time some some cretin on a bike puts my life in jeopardy through inconsiderate, dangerous cycling, they will regret it.

Not happy. Next time I'll go by bike rather than attempt to walk!

EC

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Agree with Guy Young.Nice post.

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WyS · June 2007

I used to jump most reds, now i dont do any. it's a welcome rest and a piece of p1ss to catch up with most of the people that do do it, and a challenge to catch the speedy ones.

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

I actually think if I jumped reds sooner or later I'd put myself or someone else in danger.

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jel · June 2007

I am so going to get shouted at for this: It depends how much you cycle. If you cycle when the weather's good or only over summer or just not very far then RLJ seems like a reasonable, risk free and not very annoying thing to do. If you cycle reasonable distances all the time I think you start to realise that maybe the red lights might be a good idea. It just makes the decision making process easier when you're knackered.

Campaign is currently a bit rubbish because of the obsession with safes.peed. Safe.peed are trying to say speeding isn't bad and any given driver can make the decisions necessary at any given time and it's safer without the awkward necessity of legislation. This is obviously tosh. Some cyclists say they can run red lights, as they are AWESOME and have the necessary experience and courtesy to cross reds and besides which look how many people cars kill (LOOK, LOOK).

Obviously I disagree, but then I'm a man who wears a helmet because his wife tells him to. Which is probably two completely different threads:

1. I wear a helmet.
2. I wer a helmet because my wife tells me she wants me to.

Let's see.

Eat My Dust · June 2007

I felt a pang of guilt this morning as I went through a very very amber light this morning. I knew I could have and should have stopped as it's a big junction. But it was OK the 2 cars behind me also went through it!!!!

SNAPS

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie
I am what I would like to believe is a responsible RLJer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And thats where you are in error.

No man is an island (as one more eloquent than me once said). Your actions impact on more than just you; the more cyclists are seen to needlessly disobey rules, the more we all get it in the neck. Like it or not, thats how it is; I defy you to bring the subject up amongst motorists without getting loads of vitriol.

Excepting rare emergency situations, there is no such thing as a responsible red light jumper.

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chuckles · June 2007

Hi,

What has Red Light Jumping by cyclists got to do with road safety? Or is it just an irrational pet hate for some of you guys?

Thanks,
Chuckles.

cupofteacp · June 2007

Yeah Really RLJing is so important, it's resposible for how many deaaths? As apposed to speeding cars. But then come on this really matters

I really don't think we should talk about lorries turning left or cyclists riding off the pavement, that would be a real waste of time

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chuckles
What has Red Light Jumping by cyclists got to do with road safety? Or is it just an irrational pet hate for some of you guys?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Its illegal, its very visible, and there is no defensible argument for it being safer to do so; it therefore needlessly irritates many motorists, and as a result we all get extra aggro. Its that simple. It isn't acceptable behaviour.

More to the point, its just selfish. Every day, every single day I find myself overtaking cyclists who have ploughed straight on through the red light I've been waiting at, basically catching and passing every single one of them. Red light jumping is (in my experience) invariably indicative of plodding, slow, ineffective cyclists who neither obey the laws of the road nor guidelines for safe cycling (good road positioning, being visible, etc.).

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Archcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cupoftea

Yeah Really RLJing is so important, it's resposible for how many deaaths? As apposed to speeding cars. But then come on this really matters

I really don't think we should talk about lorries turning left or cyclists riding off the pavement, that would be a real waste of time

15 * 2 * 5
* 46 = Happiness
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So start a thread on lorries turning left or whatever you want. No-one's stopping you.

Just because something doesn't cause deaths, doesn't mean it's not important. A lot of the anti-social behaviour that goes on doesn't actually cause deaths - grafitti, random yelling of abuse in the street, yobs hanging about intimidating people - but that doesn't make it alright.

I quite agree that most of the RLJing I see isn't done in order to provide safety for the individual cyclist, it's done by people who can't be bothered to stop and wait. And it provides an excuse for media and public to abuse those of us who actually obey the law.

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Sh4rkybloke · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cupoftea

Yeah Really RLJing is so important, it's resposible for how many deaaths?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh, okay then... if that's the logic it'll be okay for me to walk round with a gun occasionally... as long as I don't actually kill anyone... it's against the law, but that's okay... as long as I don't actually kill anyone.

I don't RLJ (in terms of actually proceeding through red lights and continuing on my way), however, if I feel that a cager/a.n.other vehicle usually in the ASL illegally may be a 'problem' or cause for concern then I don proceed across the white line to give myself a bit of breathing space (for safety). I still obey the lights, just from a safer position (IMO).

Technically it's still illegal, but in terms of my safety it is better - there's no justification as fas as I can see for actually completely ignoring the lights and carrying on.

Nothing in life is foolproof, fools are ingenious

Eat My Dust · June 2007

Defending RLJing is like our long hair friend defending speeding.

SNAPS

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sh4rkybloke
I don't RLJ (in terms of actually proceeding through red lights and continuing on my way), however, if I feel that a cager/a.n.other vehicle usually in the ASL illegally may be a 'problem' or cause for concern then I don proceed across the white line to give myself a bit of breathing space (for safety). I still obey the lights, just from a safer position (IMO).

Technically it's still illegal, but in terms of my safety it is better - there's no justification as fas as I can see for actually completely ignoring the lights and carrying on.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On those occasions when you get to the ASL and find it has a vehicle in it, you have to do something. Waiting to the left of it is a bad idea, so waiting in front might be better. Thats one of the problems with ASLs, and its why if I can't see whether or not its clear I'll usually wait back in the traffic instead of chancing it.

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Sh4rkybloke · June 2007

Just noticed, my post should have said DO PROCEED across the white line, just as you suggest, Cab.

Don't have a problem with that.

Nothing in life is foolproof, fools are ingenious

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

I am what I would like to believe is a responsible RLJer. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh come off it, the only reason you RLJ is because you cannot be bothered to wait. Don't kid yourself, there is no such thing as a responsible RLJer, just a lazy or reckless one.

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Jacomus-rides-Gen · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">By Cab
Its illegal, its very visible, and there is no defensible argument for it being safer to do so; it therefore needlessly irritates many motorists, and as a result we all get extra aggro. Its that simple. It isn't acceptable behaviour.

More to the point, its just selfish. Every day, every single day I find myself overtaking cyclists who have ploughed straight on through the red light I've been waiting at, basically catching and passing every single one of them. Red light jumping is (in my experience) invariably indicative of plodding, slow, ineffective cyclists who neither obey the laws of the road nor guidelines for safe cycling (good road positioning, being visible, etc.).

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Absolutely 100% agree with all of that. It also tends to be the same cyclists who don't look at what the road is going to do ahead, i.e open out, push past a whole queue of cars, only to have every single one of them overtake the stupid cyclist 10 seconds later. That is like sticking you head in an lions mouth and getting away with it, pulling it out, slapping the lion and trying again.

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funkyrayman · June 2007

If it's 'ok' for me to RLJ on my bicycle, is it then ok for me to on my motorbike?

If I had a small 125cc bike it wouldn't be much bigger than a bicycle.

Can you explain to me why it would be dangerous for me to go through a red light on a small motorbike but SAFER for me to go through them when on my bicycle?

cupofteacp · June 2007

So people are apposed to RLJing for two reasons

They might be hit from behind by someone RLJing when there not
It annoys motorists

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* 46 = Happiness

chuckles · June 2007

So it is not a road safety issue but an Anti-Social behaviour issue? Should all these people be issued with ASBOs then I wonder?

I was just checking the government website and they define ASB as:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
What is ASB?

Anti-social behaviour (ASB) includes a variety of behaviour covering a whole complex of selfish and unacceptable activity that can blight the quality of community life.

Examples include:

* nuisance neighbours
* rowdy and nuisance behaviour
* yobbish behaviour and intimidating groups taking over public spaces
* vandalism, graffiti and fly-posting
* people dealing and buying drugs on the street
* people dumping rubbish and abandoning cars
* begging and anti-social drinking
* the misuse of fireworks

Anti-social behaviour doesn't just make life unpleasant. It holds back the regeneration of disadvantaged areas and creates an environment where more serious crime can take hold.

On any measure of polling or survey, anti-social behaviour matters - it has a negative effect on far too many peopleƒ?Ts quality of life. We are committed to tackling this problem. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No mention of any road related issues there, personally speaking I find speeding and aggressively driven cars and motorbikes to be the most anti-social behaviour I come across on a daily basis. Possibly pavement cyclists as well may come into it but RLJing would not even make my list. I don't blatantly jump them myself but have no real issue with others who wish to. I will definitely 'anticipate' a set of lights if there are problem vehicles or lane changing to be done before the rest of the bunch get going making my journey far more comfortable and reducing any possibility of conflict.

I definitely wouldn't class my own behaviour as anti social, I do everything I can to be the most considerate person on the road. I would be interested to hear what others on this forum think.

Chuckles.

Eat My Dust · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cupoftea

So people are apposed to RLJing for two reasons

They might be hit from behind by someone RLJing when there not
It annoys motorists

15 * 2 * 5
* 46 = Happiness
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm, what about it being illegal?

I'd shoplift if I was allowed to, as it's illegal I don't!

SNAPS

hevipedal · June 2007

Simple - the law says you have to stop at a red light. therefore you have to stop.
Arguements about safety, fairness, or it takes a second off my journey are irrelevant.
It is against the law.

We obey the law to make society a safe place for all. If we ignore the laws we don't like how can we then take a stand against people who break laws we do like, but they don't?

RLJ all you like, I don't care it's you that's at risk, but don't justify it with spurious arguements - it's laziness pure and simple.

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Unknown · June 2007

I had the same experience this morning with another cyclist jumping *every* red light and once even jumping on to the pavement to RLJ. I had to slow down, look behind and then overtake him before he wobbled past as I stopped at the next red light. I even turned around and tutted; he didn't seem at all concerned.

If we want to be treated like cars, we should all ride like we're driving a car. I find that vast majority of drivers on my daily commute treat me with respect and are quite happy to let me make a right turn, slow down behind me and generally be nice to me if I ride in a predictable way. I bet the moment I'd start passing them on the left or jumping red lights, they'd stop treating me like a car and I'd get into pretty dangerous situations.

Anyhow, that's my rant for the day; I guess I just got annoyed that even though I was doing around 40 - 45 km/h, the cyclist on the MTB kept pace with me

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cupoftea
So people are apposed to RLJing for two reasons

They might be hit from behind by someone RLJing when there not
It annoys motorists
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That does not correctly sum up the sentiments I've posted.

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This whole RLJ thing

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