This whole RLJ thing

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers
Just for you and FrankM, What I have said is that it is dangerous to abdicate responsibility for your safety to a traffic light, whatever its colour.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you refer me to the passage in the highway code that advises us to abdicate responsibility for our safety to the lights? I'd love to see where you get that from.

I don't rely just on raffic lights for safety, I rely on my own brain and sensible road positioning; while I've had the odd knock on the roads, I've never had one at a set of traffic lights, and all of the hits/close calls I've seen there have been due to RLJ'ing or to poor road positioning.

Show me stats that demonstrate that taking a responsible road position at the lights is dangerous or just give up. Or, in a nutshell, put up or shut up, Theo.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Look for traffic not lights was one of the ways I put it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And its as despicable now as it was then. Heres how I put it; if in whatever vehicle you're using you can't keep track of the traffic and the lights then get the hell off the road. Do it now. Park or lock up somewhere and walk, because you're an idiot who shouldn't be allowed out alone, let alone allowed onto the road.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I am pleased to be asked to repeat myself but in so asking, and thereby giving me the opportunity, you will irritate a high proportion of the anti jumping brigade. In the early days of my cycling I lowered my guard if the lights were green and started being whacked. In an opposite way I believe the dramas at red light/changing lights are caused by driverscyclists not paying attention and to some degree abdicating responsibility for their behaviour to traffic lights.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You mean, people being in stupid road positions... So it hasn't got anything at all to do with red light jumping or not, and you're actually perfectly safe waiting at a red light.

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust
Maybe you should have taken those pesky stabilizers off, that might have helped. BTW you've been hit 6 times by cars, I've only managed 2 in around 26 years. Sounds more like you were just a sh*t cyclist "in the early days"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good point actually. I've been on the roads for approaching 20 years, been hit while moving twice and gently nudged from behind by taxi drivers and other motorists irate that I'm waiting at the red light a couple of times. 6 hits at junctions... Theo, old chap, I can quite see why you feel the need to take the law into your own hands; you're either very unlucky or you're rubbish. Either way, the correct solution is to learn to ride assertively and safely rather than illegally.

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie
Yeah dude, make a conclusion based on ony a brief verbal description. I ride in the primary blah blah fishpaste when it makes sense, in this case it would put me in more danger and induce a great degree of unhappiness.

But why let that bother you. Instead of making helpful comments just keep flinging from that high horse of yours.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Okayyyy... I apologise, in future I'll base my opinions not on what you actually say but on some telepathic impulse you're presumably expecting others to pick up on instead.

If there are pinch points and plenty of traffic then you need to be out in the lane where others will be discouraged from passing too close, else you need to be so far to the left that others can overtake safely without pulling out. There is no middle ground here.

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Unknown · June 2007

Jump lights and start to enjoy/spread the benefits of non compliance.

Sorry but that is being a prat.

Be bright Be seen

Eat My Dust · June 2007

Shucks, we managed totake yet another RLJing thread over the 10 pages mark!![:I]

SNAPS

chuckles · June 2007

Hi,

As no-one answered my previous post on page 6 I decided to try out waiting in the ASL until the lights properly turned green last night and this morning. I will definitely not be doing this again as it ruined both journeys for me. What I found was that if there was even a slight delay in clipping in to the pedals or whatever then you had some idiot either beeping or revving their engine two feet away from my back wheel. Then trying to overtake in a ridiculous and dangerous manner. I am not sure how people can say that this is safer, it felt totally unnerving and stressful for me compared to my normal ride. I can only assume that you guys ride in close to the gutter thereby avoiding all this, this is not something I tend to do either.

Having given the whole thing a lot of thought overnight too I have come to the conclusion that anticipating is not a problem. While it may 'technically' be illegal, by initially stopping at the light I am in fact abiding by the 'spirit' of the law. Besides which, I do not and never have blindly followed rules and regulations to the letter just for their own sake. I have spent my lifetime forming my own moral code of conduct and use that as my guide in my day to day life rather than refer to law books. Additionally, the law does precious little for me as a cyclist so really do not see why I should give it any respect at all.

I thought about the effect this may have on drivers attitudes to me too and cannot recall it ever causing me a problem in the past, as I say they are normally far more bothered if I cause a totally insignificant 'delay' to their journey to the next set of lights. I do note a big difference between my style and behaviour and the small number of total idiots who sail across red lights without even bothering to slow down though, I don't think there are actually many of these around in London though, certainly not on my route.

So for now I shall be continuing with my previous tactic of anticipating the green light as soon as it is safe to go.

Chuckles

urrrrrrrrrs · June 2007

tut tut London Dynamo(insert waving finger smiley) saw 3 of your guys RLJ'ing in town last night !!

i'd rather have a bottle in front of me,than a frontal lobotomy

jedster · June 2007

Theo,

You suggest that those of us who dont RLJ should try it. That we will find that it's safer.

Hmm

Well when I began cycle commuting 2 years ago I used to jump reds on left turns, clear ped crossings and clear crossroads. I never got into real trouble but did upset a few people (I'd argue that i didn't inconvenience them but they were clearly annoyed).

After starting to read this board I started to give some weight to the arguments about playing by the rules if we want to be treated as a normal road user. I decided to obey the lights for a while and see how it went.

I don't RLJ anymore. I have never felt in danger at lights because I'm careful about my road positioning. I find the whole experience calmer and I get where I'm going just as easily. The main benefit I find in terms of safety is that there is not the temptation to take liberties with filtering to get to the red light in a queue of traffic. When I used to RLJ I had a few occasions when I was caught in slightly dodgy positions when the lights changed. I still overtake traffic but I'm more inclined to sit a a few cars back in primary than squeeze my way to the front at the lights.

Safe cycling is about anticipation (thinking what COULD be about to happen not assuming what IS going to happen), good road positioning and sensible risk/reward tradeoffs (i.e., comparing the benefit of a saved couple of seconds with the slim risk of something really nasty happening). It's not about RLJing.

Cheers
J

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Adam_57

Apologies if this has already been covered, but it seems to me that one thing that doesn't get enough attention is the indirect impact of RLJing on cyclists' safety, because of its effect on motorists' attitudes.

Whatever the arguments in favour of RLJing, they are lost on the average motorist. Many motorists get very irritated by RLJing, and one can only suppose that this translates into a general negative feeling towards cyclists. Surely this increases the chances that motorists will drive in an aggressive and dangerous manner when they perceive themselves to be inconvenienced by a cyclist sharing the road?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know it sounds stupid but I really do agree with this.

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Mister Paul · June 2007

11 pages. No surprise. Can't be bothered to read it all because there will be absolutely nothing new.

The fact remains that junctions always have some element of risk, whether controlled or not. The evidence about deaths, and previous discussion of, shows that there are plenty of easier, safer, and effective measures to take to minimise the risk. None of these involve advocating RLJing. So to advocate RLJing from a safety point of view is unnecessary, and hides the real agenda.

Thousands of experienced and confident cylists pass through junctions every day without ever needing to RLJ.

It's a non-argument from a safety point of view. Which is evidenced by those who don't and are still here.

Cue someone [;)] responding with a personal attack, and false claims that support for RLJ on safety grounds is growing.

If you want to RLJ then that's your choice. But be a man and stop claiming that you do it for safety reasons.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The fact remains that junctions always have some element of risk, whether controlled or not.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would suggest that "some element of risk" understates the position: nearly three quarters of cyclist accidents happen at, or near, a road junction with T-junctions being the most commonly involved (RoSPA).

Whether they are controlled or not, your situational awarenss at junctions should be in "overdrive" (for want of a better word) and cyclists should ride in a manner that attempts to mitigate the risk.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You mean, people being in stupid road positions... So it hasn't got anything at all to do with red light jumping or not, and you're actually perfectly safe waiting at a red light.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you seriously believe that you are "perfectly safe" waiting at a red light?

Folders

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

11 pages. No surprise. Can't be bothered to read it all because there will be absolutely nothing new.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh but MP you missed a classic own goal from Theo who finally admitted to being a reckless cyclists. Says it all really.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
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Archcp · June 2007

Oi! Mister Paul! Give me your hand. Smack! (private joke..[;)])

Chuckles: If you wait for the green light to get going, yes, you might get hassle. But you'll find that traffic lights have a thing in the middle called the amber light, which shows for second or two, to tell you that it's about to go green. Allow yourself a few feet back from the line when you stop, get going on amber, and you can be crossing the line on green and accelerating away. In this way I find I usually still have a head start of the vehicle behind me which gets me across the junction before they catch up...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chuckles

Hi, I can only assume that you guys ride in close to the gutter thereby avoiding all this, this is not something I tend to do either.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not so, I sit in primary and they can rev their engines and beep their horns all they like but I will still not move over to secondary position until it is safe to do so.

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FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

I think we both know that it has everything to do with not being bothered to wait. I know, I have done it myself. From personal experience I have never encountered any set of lights where it would be safer to jump rather than wait.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You should get out more.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks I do, I get out on my bike whenever I can and still have found it is safer to wait than jump.

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Small Fish · June 2007

My first (and hopefully )last RLJ post

This discussion (and ones before) have converted me from a 'careful RLJer' to a stopper. Because, I agree with the argument that if we want to be taken seriously as road users we have to set an example.
I am often dismayed by the appalling cycling of other cyclists. If there are any considerate safe RLJers, either I haven't seen them or it's impossible to tell the difference between them and the selfish dangerous ones. I no longer want to be seen by motorists/pedestrians/daily mail readers as a part of that lot - the utility cyclists as someone called them in an earlier post.

I only used to RLJ at a couple of left turns - no safety advantage, just time saving. Now instead of getting to work a minute or so I can enjoy the challenge of trying to do a track stand at every light (and work out a way of putting my feet down without looking like I'm panicking if I can't make it till the lights change...)

I do think there is a case for making left turns at some red lights legal - and if people want to legitimize RLJing then a campaign to get the law changed, not endless message board bickering would be the way forward - but unless the safe RLJers can come up with a way of distinguishing themselves from the dangerous fools, any campaign is doomed to fail.

If you really believe the safety thing about getting away first then surely the solution is an early green light for cyclists - everyone stops at the junction, just before the lights change an extra little green light comes on and gives cyclists a few seconds headstart before the main lights change.

Over and out.

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The fact remains that junctions always have some element of risk, whether controlled or not.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would suggest that "some element of risk" understates the position: nearly three quarters of cyclist accidents happen at, or near, a road junction with T-junctions being the most commonly involved (RoSPA).

Whether they are controlled or not, your situational awarenss at junctions should be in "overdrive" (for want of a better word) and cyclists should ride in a manner that attempts to mitigate the risk.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I intentionally put some because it is not a specific measure. So it can't be an understatement.

And I agree with your second paragraph completely.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

11 pages. No surprise. Can't be bothered to read it all because there will be absolutely nothing new.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh but MP you missed a classic own goal from Theo who finally admitted to being a reckless cyclists. Says it all really.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Did I?? Where??

Sorry Arch, couldn't resist. And it is Friday.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chuckles

Hi,

As no-one answered my previous post on page 6 I decided to try out waiting in the ASL until the lights properly turned green last night and this morning. I will definitely not be doing this again as it ruined both journeys for me. What I found was that if there was even a slight delay in clipping in to the pedals or whatever then you had some idiot either beeping or revving their engine two feet away from my back wheel. Then trying to overtake in a ridiculous and dangerous manner. I am not sure how people can say that this is safer, it felt totally unnerving and stressful for me compared to my normal ride. I can only assume that you guys ride in close to the gutter thereby avoiding all this, this is not something I tend to do either.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Odd. When I'm at traffic lights, I get my feet into place at red-amber, and I'm moving when the lights change to green. Why do you find that hard? Surely that is legally anticipating the lights changing and will accomplish exactly what you want?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Having given the whole thing a lot of thought overnight too I have come to the conclusion that anticipating is not a problem. While it may 'technically' be illegal, by initially stopping at the light I am in fact abiding by the 'spirit' of the law. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It isn't 'technically' illegal. Its illegal, it is against the letter and intention of the law. You are not abiding by the spirit of the law, quit fooling yourself.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Besides which, I do not and never have blindly followed rules and regulations to the letter just for their own sake. I have spent my lifetime forming my own moral code of conduct and use that as my guide in my day to day life rather than refer to law books. Additionally, the law does precious little for me as a cyclist so really do not see why I should give it any respect at all.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You mean that you can't be bothered to stop so you're going to rationalise your actions which, viewed objectively, are no safer than cycling within the law. Thats fine, break the law, but be big enough to just come out with 'I'm breaking the law because I can't be bothered to obey it'.

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dondare · June 2007

If all you jumpers do it to be safe, why do you do a lot of stuff which is more dangerous? I've never seen someone go through a light to avoid being in a perilous position on the road, but I've seen many thousands go through because they couldn't be bothered to wait and don't give a flying fvck what the law says or what impression it gives. And I've seen the anger expressed by motorists who've been waiting and pedestrians who've been trying to cross. Stop trying to justify it. Just admit that you're a bunch of ignorant, arrogant tossers.

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

Not so, I sit in primary and they can rev their engines and beep their horns all they like but I will still not move over to secondary position until it is safe to do so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It seems to be lost on many of them that the more they act threatening, the less safe you'd be pulling over to the left, which means that the more idiotic they are the less likely a competent cyclist will be to pull over and let them go. At least thats how I see it; I'm more likely to pull over and let a courteous driver go because I believe that they're less likely to pass too close.

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FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

Smallfish you make some very good points. My only concen about the early green light just for cyclists is that the motorised transport would start going on this as well and then we are no further forward.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
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FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

11 pages. No surprise. Can't be bothered to read it all because there will be absolutely nothing new.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh but MP you missed a classic own goal from Theo who finally admitted to being a reckless cyclists. Says it all really.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Did I?? Where??<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Page 9
Primary most of the time and er'so primary some of the time. I was/I am a bit reckless. So what? It's the comparison red to green that is critical.

Theo Stegers

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
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Eat My Dust · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers
In the early days of my cycling I lowered my guard if the lights were green and started being whacked.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe you should have taken those pesky stabilizers off, that might have helped. BTW you've been hit 6 times by cars, I've only managed 2 in around 26 years. Sounds more like you were just a sh*t cyclist "in the early days"

SNAPS

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's it. Fast but sh*t. I used to think lights counted for something other than danger.

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here you go MrP.

SNAPS

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I intentionally put some because it is not a specific measure. So it can't be an understatement. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, "some" is not a metric and is meaningingless in the context that you originally used it - everything has "some" risk...

Folders

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

Not so, I sit in primary and they can rev their engines and beep their horns all they like but I will still not move over to secondary position until it is safe to do so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It seems to be lost on many of them that the more they act threatening, the less safe you'd be pulling over to the left, which means that the more idiotic they are the less likely a competent cyclist will be to pull over and let them go. At least thats how I see it; I'm more likely to pull over and let a courteous driver go because I believe that they're less likely to pass too close.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly, furthermore beeping horns seems to make my legs peddle slower not faster. Stange that.

My e bay bargain œ 31.05
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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I intentionally put some because it is not a specific measure. So it can't be an understatement. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, "some" is not a metric and is meaningingless in the context that you originally used it - everything has "some" risk...

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And your point??

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chuckles

Hi,

As no-one answered my previous post on page 6 I decided to try out waiting in the ASL until the lights properly turned green last night and this morning. I will definitely not be doing this again as it ruined both journeys for me. What I found was that if there was even a slight delay in clipping in to the pedals or whatever then you had some idiot either beeping or revving their engine two feet away from my back wheel. Then trying to overtake in a ridiculous and dangerous manner. I am not sure how people can say that this is safer, it felt totally unnerving and stressful for me compared to my normal ride. I can only assume that you guys ride in close to the gutter thereby avoiding all this, this is not something I tend to do either.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How come I don't get grief from motorists when I obey the law, but you do?
Keep doing the right thing, and you'll learn how to do it properly. Don't be intimidated by motorists.

You're not the boss of me.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I intentionally put some because it is not a specific measure. So it can't be an understatement. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, "some" is not a metric and is meaningingless in the context that you originally used it - everything has "some" risk...

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is a complete blind alley of an argument.

You're not the boss of me.

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And your point??<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I wanted to supply stats (reductive as they were) that illuminated your deployment of the word "some".

Folders

This whole RLJ thing

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