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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,270
    If you still want to play, just point out where it mentions a tax increase.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,270
    The whole point of the analogy is how best to divide up tax cuts, but it relies on the expenditure of the government reducing without any reduction in services, the richest being able to go somewhere better and the poorest being violent. It's a worthless analogy.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    Might want to give it more time before you use the analogy again Stevo.
    _
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I reckon the rich guy owns the means of beer production and has been exploiting the workers by underpaying them. They rose up against him suspiciously quickly.

    But now there is no beer being produced and that is a world I'm not prepared to live in.
  • Longshot
    Longshot Posts: 940
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The whole point of the analogy is how best to divide up tax cuts, but it relies on the expenditure of the government reducing without any reduction in services, the richest being able to go somewhere better and the poorest being violent. It's a worthless analogy.

    I honestly think you're overthinking it.

    I took it to mean that poor people are always whinging. :D
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,270
    HaydenM wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I reckon the rich guy owns the means of beer production and has been exploiting the workers by underpaying them. They rose up against him suspiciously quickly.

    But now there is no beer being produced and that is a world I'm not prepared to live in.

    After they rose up the brewery is now a workers' cooperative paying a living wage and the workers no longer need to rely on handouts.
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    HaydenM wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I reckon the rich guy owns the means of beer production and has been exploiting the workers by underpaying them. They rose up against him suspiciously quickly.

    But now there is no beer being produced and that is a world I'm not prepared to live in.

    After they rose up the brewery is now a workers' cooperative paying a living wage and the workers no longer need to rely on handouts.

    Fair enough. What about when one worker doesn't pull his weight, and another worker is breaking a sweat to run the company more effectively? If they start paying the hard worker more than the other won't they all end up in the same mess again...?
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Slacker gets to be a cleaner and the hard worker gets to be a manager. We can’t all be peons.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,642
    I think Corbyn's best strategy would be to vote for the deal. Then play up how well they protected against no deal, and how in the future relationship they will ensure workers' rights, environmental protection etc. Possibly EEA.

    Think that will win more seats than defeating BoJo's deal.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    HaydenM wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    HaydenM wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I reckon the rich guy owns the means of beer production and has been exploiting the workers by underpaying them. They rose up against him suspiciously quickly.

    But now there is no beer being produced and that is a world I'm not prepared to live in.

    After they rose up the brewery is now a workers' cooperative paying a living wage and the workers no longer need to rely on handouts.

    Fair enough. What about when one worker doesn't pull his weight, and another worker is breaking a sweat to run the company more effectively? If they start paying the hard worker more than the other won't they all end up in the same mess again...?
    This quite beautifully sums up why you need to encourage and reward enterprise but with a level of governance that ensures ownership does not preclude social responsibility.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I think Corbyn's best strategy would be to vote for the deal. Then play up how well they protected against no deal, and how in the future relationship they will ensure workers' rights, environmental protection etc. Possibly EEA.

    Think that will win more seats than defeating BoJo's deal.

    I think this is a fair assessment. If you believe Brexit is going to happen, now is the time to vote for a deal. If you genuinely still believe it can and will be stopped, then vote against it. If you vote against it with a view to a unicorn deal being within grasp, you've lost the plot.

    Corbyn is in a difficult position as he doesn't want the damage to the Tory party to end with the delivery of Brexit whilst overlooking the fact his own party is in a mess.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I think Corbyn's best strategy would be to vote for the deal. Then play up how well they protected against no deal, and how in the future relationship they will ensure workers' rights, environmental protection etc. Possibly EEA.

    Think that will win more seats than defeating BoJo's deal.

    Surely not?

    Give BoJo the victory he craves? Getting Brexit done???!
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,642
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I think Corbyn's best strategy would be to vote for the deal. Then play up how well they protected against no deal, and how in the future relationship they will ensure workers' rights, environmental protection etc. Possibly EEA.

    Think that will win more seats than defeating BoJo's deal.

    Surely not?

    Give BoJo the victory he craves? Getting Brexit done???!

    There's a lot more Brexit to do, and many attractive options to offer those that voted remain without annoying all the leave voters who are a majority in lots of labour seats.

    Voting against just means losing Brexit votes to Tories and Remain votes to Lib Dems.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I think Corbyn's best strategy would be to vote for the deal. Then play up how well they protected against no deal, and how in the future relationship they will ensure workers' rights, environmental protection etc. Possibly EEA.

    Think that will win more seats than defeating BoJo's deal.

    Surely not?

    Give BoJo the victory he craves? Getting Brexit done???!

    There's a lot more Brexit to do, and many attractive options to offer those that voted remain without annoying all the leave voters who are a majority in lots of labour seats.

    Voting against just means losing Brexit votes to Tories and Remain votes to Lib Dems.

    I reckon you’d be nuts to give the Tories that level of victory.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,270
    No way. Play up how they are giving Northern Ireland the opportunity to be aligned with the EU while saying it is unthinkable for the rest of the UK, that it dilutes working rights, and is bad economics.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,738
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... cbH4A9ThAl

    How funding cuts are affecting teachers and schools.
    _
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    No way. Play up how they are giving Northern Ireland the opportunity to be aligned with the EU while saying it is unthinkable for the rest of the UK, that it dilutes working rights, and is bad economics.
    Whilst I can see the appeal. Taking this approach only works if you genuinely believe we are going to successfully stop Brexit or that a Labour government will be in power with a clear mandate to pursue a different path.
    Personally, I don't think either are realistic and I think the Labour party must know this. I think the only realistic path to pursue is to either vote for the deal or insist on a confirmatory referendum on the deal that is available. Fantasy deals are what got us into this mess.
    If you just keep saying no because you have a fantasy Brexit in mind, then you would be culpable if no deal did happen because that simply isn't an available option.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,642
    The problem for labour is if they "win" a confirmatory referendum, they will need to campaign for something. This is clear for the Tories and Lib Dems, but Labour sitting on the fence will only hurt them more.

    It seems they are going to notionally vote against the deal but allow the rebels to let it pass. I can see the logic of this, but think they need to show some leadership for voters to believe they can lead.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,699
    TheBigBean wrote:
    think they need to show some leadership

    :lol:
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,932
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The problem for labour is if they "win" a confirmatory referendum, they will need to campaign for something. This is clear for the Tories and Lib Dems, but Labour sitting on the fence will only hurt them more.

    It seems they are going to notionally vote against the deal but allow the rebels to let it pass. I can see the logic of this, but think they need to show some leadership for voters to believe they can lead.
    I think they need to rebrand themselves as the Terminally Incoherent Party. Every day they manage to muddy the waters even more than before. Utterly pathetic.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,560
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The problem for labour is if they "win" a confirmatory referendum, they will need to campaign for something. This is clear for the Tories and Lib Dems, but Labour sitting on the fence will only hurt them more.

    It seems they are going to notionally vote against the deal but allow the rebels to let it pass. I can see the logic of this, but think they need to show some leadership for voters to believe they can lead.
    Squadron of pigs on standby...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The problem for labour is if they "win" a confirmatory referendum, they will need to campaign for something. This is clear for the Tories and Lib Dems, but Labour sitting on the fence will only hurt them more.

    They will probably campaign for something completely contradictory to the confirmatory referendum that they had won.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Rolf F wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    The problem for labour is if they "win" a confirmatory referendum, they will need to campaign for something. This is clear for the Tories and Lib Dems, but Labour sitting on the fence will only hurt them more.

    They will probably campaign for something completely contradictory to the confirmatory referendum that they had won.
    Maybe they will vote for a contradictory referendum!
    Or is that what we've already had?
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    What puzzles me is that in the run up to the referendum we were told by the Leave campaign it would be very simple and quick to get a good deal if they won.

    But that doesn't seem to be the case. Did they not realise that?
  • shortfall
    shortfall Posts: 3,288
    Robert88 wrote:
    What puzzles me is that in the run up to the referendum we were told by the Leave campaign it would be very simple and quick to get a good deal if they won.

    But that doesn't seem to be the case. Did they not realise that?

    Think that was before Theresa spunked their majority.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Shortfall wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    What puzzles me is that in the run up to the referendum we were told by the Leave campaign it would be very simple and quick to get a good deal if they won.

    But that doesn't seem to be the case. Did they not realise that?

    Think that was before Theresa spunked their majority.

    She needed a bigger majority to sideline the nutters
  • shortfall
    shortfall Posts: 3,288
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Shortfall wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    What puzzles me is that in the run up to the referendum we were told by the Leave campaign it would be very simple and quick to get a good deal if they won.

    But that doesn't seem to be the case. Did they not realise that?

    Think that was before Theresa spunked their majority.

    She needed a bigger majority to sideline the nutters

    Yes. And she ended up with a smaller one.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Shortfall wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Shortfall wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    What puzzles me is that in the run up to the referendum we were told by the Leave campaign it would be very simple and quick to get a good deal if they won.

    But that doesn't seem to be the case. Did they not realise that?

    Think that was before Theresa spunked their majority.

    She needed a bigger majority to sideline the nutters

    Yes. And she ended up with a smaller one.

    She would have been just as fvcked with the 12 or whatever Cameron left her. She always needed 80 or so.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Shortfall wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Shortfall wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    What puzzles me is that in the run up to the referendum we were told by the Leave campaign it would be very simple and quick to get a good deal if they won.

    But that doesn't seem to be the case. Did they not realise that?

    Think that was before Theresa spunked their majority.

    She needed a bigger majority to sideline the nutters

    Yes. And she ended up with a smaller one.

    It would have been far cheaper to do that the Johnson way and just kick people out of the party for the fun of it.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Unfortunately Stevo, your plan has worked too well. Labour are now scared of the democratic result the electorate will give them.

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