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Just looking at the blue leaflet on my doorstep when I got in, there seems to be quite a lot of free stuff promised from all directions.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
He (Corbyn) seems to be aware of his own personal unpopularity as he's made various statements about it 'not being about him'. I fear a hung parliament is a strong possibility. Mind you with all the MPs not standing in December I would guess there'll be a bit of reshuffling.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.0 -
I think the calculation was more along the lines that his deal would get so watered down by the time the commons had ammended it that it wouldn't be worth bothering with, in which case why why not go the country to try and get some sort of majority to ensure he could get it through? I know, I know. May made the same calculation.morstar said:
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.
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I pointed out upthread that Labour's spending plans are an order of magnitude higher than those of the Conservatives.rjsterry said:
Just looking at the blue leaflet on my doorstep when I got in, there seems to be quite a lot of free stuff promised from all directions.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
He (Corbyn) seems to be aware of his own personal unpopularity as he's made various statements about it 'not being about him'. I fear a hung parliament is a strong possibility. Mind you with all the MPs not standing in December I would guess there'll be a bit of reshuffling.
I do not want a hung parliament, clearly."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You'd better wait for the Tory manifesto rather than just assuming that there is a major shift to the right. Then we can judge them on their merits.morstar said:
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.
As for what stopped the deal, we could argue till the cows come home but IMO the main reason for the GE is to remove the blockage caused by a hung parliament."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think you need to wait for the manifesto to judge whether the proposed policies represent a shift to the right, rather than just assuming.morstar said:
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.
As for what stopped Brexit, well in my view the main reason for the GE is to remove the blockage caused by a hung parliament. That tells you what you need to know."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think you need to wait for the manifesto to judge whether the proposed policies represent a shift to the right, rather than just assuming.morstar said:
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.
As for what stopped Brexit, well in my view the main reason for the GE is to remove the blockage caused by a hung parliament. That tells you what you need to know."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I don't think you need a manifesto to see the Tories have moved to the right. The fact that their moderates have been kicked out or left of their own accord has told you that.0
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I rest my case about assumptions. But it's what you expect in Cake Stop...elbowloh said:I don't think you need a manifesto to see the Tories have moved to the right. The fact that their moderates have been kicked out or left of their own accord has told you that.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's not an assumption that many of their moderates are no longer in the party is it?Stevo_666 said:
I rest my case about assumptions. But it's what you expect in Cake Stop...elbowloh said:I don't think you need a manifesto to see the Tories have moved to the right. The fact that their moderates have been kicked out or left of their own accord has told you that.
It's not like any party actually govern by their manifesto anyway.0 -
You're very naive if you think the manifesto counts for anything these days.Stevo_666 said:
I rest my case about assumptions. But it's what you expect in Cake Stop...elbowloh said:I don't think you need a manifesto to see the Tories have moved to the right. The fact that their moderates have been kicked out or left of their own accord has told you that.
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Nice to see the new forum hasn't resolved the multiple posts issue.Stevo_666 said:
I think you need to wait for the manifesto to judge whether the proposed policies represent a shift to the right, rather than just assuming.morstar said:
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.
As for what stopped Brexit, well in my view the main reason for the GE is to remove the blockage caused by a hung parliament. That tells you what you need to know.
Anyhow, I'd rather judge a party on their actions rather than their own propaganda. The labour manifesto won't include the words hard left but you are quite happy to have deemed them hard left. I have simply done similar with the Conservatives.
Second point, we'll have to disagree on. The reason Brexit isn't done is because the last two prime ministers have pursued agendas quite different to what was proposed in the referendum so parliament has justifiably found many reasons to object but even then were prepared to vote it through with sensible scrutiny.
The absence of a hung parliament may have made different versions of Brexit more achievable but a hung parliament is not the root cause of failure to deliver Brexit.0 -
Why don't you read what their manifesto says when it comes out? Then judge it on its merits.elbowloh said:
It's not an assumption that many of their moderates are no longer in the party is it?Stevo_666 said:
I rest my case about assumptions. But it's what you expect in Cake Stop...elbowloh said:I don't think you need a manifesto to see the Tories have moved to the right. The fact that their moderates have been kicked out or left of their own accord has told you that.
It's not like any party actually govern by their manifesto anyway.
I'll do that for Labour when their manifesto comes out, although amusingly as a 'registered supporter' I got this email from Jeremy yesterday which suggests they don't really know what to write:
"Dear [Stevo],
We could have a Labour Government by Christmas!
The General Election on 12 December gives us all a once-in-a-generation chance for real change in this country. In the coming weeks we will be publishing our election manifesto setting out our proposals.
Labour is a movement, and our strength comes from us all working together. That's why I want to hear your priorities for our manifesto.
Help write our manifesto today
How do you think we can best tackle the climate and environmental emergency, or rebuild our public services? How can we end the scourge of poverty, or create a world of peace and human rights? Share your thoughts now, and together we'll make our movement even stronger.
The consultation period runs until midnight on Wednesday 6 November. I hope that members and supporters like you will take the opportunity to get involved and share your ideas, as well as getting out on the streets to deliver a Labour government.
Together we can create a country for the many, not the few.
Yours,
Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party"
What do you reckon I should say? Could be fun
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'm simply making the point that he needs to look at all the info rather than just assuming. Sounds like you have a similar issue?rick_chasey said:
You're very naive if you think the manifesto counts for anything these days.Stevo_666 said:
I rest my case about assumptions. But it's what you expect in Cake Stop...elbowloh said:I don't think you need a manifesto to see the Tories have moved to the right. The fact that their moderates have been kicked out or left of their own accord has told you that.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Yep, my post went off into the ether and I assumed I'd pressed the back button by mistake so wrote something similar and the same happened to that one. After that I thought I'd wait and see what happened.morstar said:
Nice to see the new forum hasn't resolved the multiple posts issue.Stevo_666 said:
I think you need to wait for the manifesto to judge whether the proposed policies represent a shift to the right, rather than just assuming.morstar said:
The thing about the hard left stance is that it is all about the framing. Brexit and Trump have proven beyond doubt that superficial promises can win regardless of the reality behind them. What you frame (legitimately) as hard left is not sold as hard left. It is sold as 'for the many' a more loosely defined message that people can buy into.Stevo_666 said:We shall see. He is a bit of a liability given his clear hard left stance, although obviously some people are attracted by the 'loads of free stuff' promises. Personally I think he's on the wane but anything can happen in these contests.
The trouble with another hung parliament is that we end up with more Brexit deadlock or even no deal if the EU refuse to extend the deadline again.
With regard to Brexit specifically, the deal essentially got agreement in principle and BJ ran away from scrutiny so it wasn't a hung parliament problem. It was a TM red lines problem followed by BJ insincerity issue that stopped Brexit happening.
I think our politics needs to get used to shared power. In an information (or misinformation) age, peoples views cannot be neatly boxed into left or right. That the Tories could conceivably win an outright majority is good for them but their move to the right will eventually hurt them in the polls too once people have experienced those policies without moderation.
As for what stopped Brexit, well in my view the main reason for the GE is to remove the blockage caused by a hung parliament. That tells you what you need to know.
Anyhow, I'd rather judge a party on their actions rather than their own propaganda. The labour manifesto won't include the words hard left but you are quite happy to have deemed them hard left. I have simply done similar with the Conservatives.
Second point, we'll have to disagree on. The reason Brexit isn't done is because the last two prime ministers have pursued agendas quite different to what was proposed in the referendum so parliament has justifiably found many reasons to object but even then were prepared to vote it through with sensible scrutiny.
The absence of a hung parliament may have made different versions of Brexit more achievable but a hung parliament is not the root cause of failure to deliver Brexit."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Q&A script for Conservative canvassers.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIXFyyJXsAYiRXh?format=jpg&name=medium
No doubt there is something similar with a red letterhead.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
All the indications I'm seeing are that Boris is going turn on the spending taps and try and buy the election with a flurry of big ticket splurges and tax cuts. If you think Big State, deficit spending and tons more debt is a signal that the Torys are moving to the right then we inhabit different planets. As Steveo points out we'll have to wait for the manifestos though.0
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FFS, you can bribe people with empty promises regardless of your political colour. Like I say, I'll judge by the actions of the last few years and months in particular with regard to Boris rather than a propaganda pamphlet.shortfall said:All the indications I'm seeing are that Boris is going turn on the spending taps and try and buy the election with a flurry of big ticket splurges and tax cuts. If you think Big State, deficit spending and tons more debt is a signal that the Torys are moving to the right then we inhabit different planets. As Steveo points out we'll have to wait for the manifestos though.
BJ, has primarily courted the support of the ERG over the last few months. A right wing, reduced state group. Some moderates have left the party citing the loss of the broad church approach. It is an observable shift to the right in ideology and actions. The manifesto will court support of the numbers to make a majority whilst not framing those arguments as 'we're right wing'.
As with Brexit, a primarily free market ideology courted support of a wider voter base using reduced immigration rhetoric.
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Left or right is beside the point. We now have three party leaders all claiming to represent 'the people' against some ambiguous 'elite' who bear responsibility for all the world's ills. They're all shabby populists with just a different coloured rosette.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Sajid Javid accused Hugh Grant of being a member of "the elite" because he refused to shake his hand the other day. Personally, I think if you are in a position where you are likely to be invited to the Bilderberg Group, you can no longer criticise someone else for being a member of the elite.rjsterry said:Left or right is beside the point. We now have three party leaders all claiming to represent 'the people' against some ambiguous 'elite' who bear responsibility for all the world's ills. They're all shabby populists with just a different coloured rosette.
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You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It's not enormously surprising that after 10 years of austerity people feel that the 'elite', who tend to be well off, are looking after themselves at the expense of your more average folk.rjsterry said:You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.
Even BoJo is distancing himself from the previous 10 years of Tory politics. "Britain Deserves Better" is not the slogan of a party that is proud of the last decade in charge, wouldn't you say?0 -
Except that it is nonsense. The zero sum idea that if someone is better off then there must also be some poor bastard losing out is, generally speaking, rubbish.rick_chasey said:
It's not enormously surprising that after 10 years of austerity people feel that the 'elite', who tend to be well off, are looking after themselves at the expense of your more average folk.rjsterry said:You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.
Even BoJo is distancing himself from the previous 10 years of Tory politics. "Britain Deserves Better" is not the slogan of a party that is proud of the last decade in charge, wouldn't you say?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Well put.rjsterry said:
Except that it is nonsense. The zero sum idea that if someone is better off then there must also be some poor bastard losing out is, generally speaking, rubbish.rick_chasey said:
It's not enormously surprising that after 10 years of austerity people feel that the 'elite', who tend to be well off, are looking after themselves at the expense of your more average folk.rjsterry said:You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.
Even BoJo is distancing himself from the previous 10 years of Tory politics. "Britain Deserves Better" is not the slogan of a party that is proud of the last decade in charge, wouldn't you say?
I would add that most people are at least intelligent enough to see through these leftiebollox conspiracy theories about the elite screwing the rest. Which is partly why Labour isn't doing better in the opinion polls."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The tories have learnt the hardway at the last election with the votes bled to labour after the bonanza on offer. Any sensible policy got poo pooed with one such example being the dementia tax. Whats the point in being sensible when evidence is yhat tbe electorate are easily fooled.0
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All the more worrying then that Johnson is steering towards this kind of rhetoric.Stevo_666 said:
Well put.rjsterry said:
Except that it is nonsense. The zero sum idea that if someone is better off then there must also be some poor bastard losing out is, generally speaking, rubbish.rick_chasey said:
It's not enormously surprising that after 10 years of austerity people feel that the 'elite', who tend to be well off, are looking after themselves at the expense of your more average folk.rjsterry said:You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.
Even BoJo is distancing himself from the previous 10 years of Tory politics. "Britain Deserves Better" is not the slogan of a party that is proud of the last decade in charge, wouldn't you say?
I would add that most people are at least intelligent enough to see through these leftiebollox conspiracy theories about the elite screwing the rest. Which is partly why Labour isn't doing better in the opinion polls.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The difference is probably that Corbyn and the leftiebollox brigade actually believe that guff. (See point above re: intelligence).rjsterry said:
All the more worrying then that Johnson is steering towards this kind of rhetoric.Stevo_666 said:
Well put.rjsterry said:
Except that it is nonsense. The zero sum idea that if someone is better off then there must also be some poor bastard losing out is, generally speaking, rubbish.rick_chasey said:
It's not enormously surprising that after 10 years of austerity people feel that the 'elite', who tend to be well off, are looking after themselves at the expense of your more average folk.rjsterry said:You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.
Even BoJo is distancing himself from the previous 10 years of Tory politics. "Britain Deserves Better" is not the slogan of a party that is proud of the last decade in charge, wouldn't you say?
I would add that most people are at least intelligent enough to see through these leftiebollox conspiracy theories about the elite screwing the rest. Which is partly why Labour isn't doing better in the opinion polls."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You seem to have bought into the "it's all parliament's fault" narrative, glossing over the fact that the current prime minister spent months opposing elements of May's deal which he has now happily incorporated into his own 'new' deal.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You can call it blame if you want. But parliament does seem to be the current cause of the delay. If that wasn't the case, why are we having a GE?rjsterry said:You seem to have bought into the "it's all parliament's fault" narrative, glossing over the fact that the current prime minister spent months opposing elements of May's deal which he has now happily incorporated into his own 'new' deal.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
rjsterry said:
Except that it is nonsense. The zero sum idea that if someone is better off then there must also be some poor bastard losing out is, generally speaking, rubbish.rick_chasey said:
It's not enormously surprising that after 10 years of austerity people feel that the 'elite', who tend to be well off, are looking after themselves at the expense of your more average folk.rjsterry said:You'd think people would want the best in the country - the elite you might call them -to run the country, but it appears some ersatz man-of-the-people nonsense is what is called for.
Even BoJo is distancing himself from the previous 10 years of Tory politics. "Britain Deserves Better" is not the slogan of a party that is proud of the last decade in charge, wouldn't you say?
Sure the Tory slogan is nonsense. As is zero sum politics.
But who’s looking after your interest if you are an average or below average earner? Here’s a clue, it’s not been the government of the last 10 years, save for a couple of Lib Dem enforced tax cuts for low earners.0
